1 1 CAUSE NO. 26294 2 SHANNA SHIPMAN A/N/F OF ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF 3 SHANNON MOORE, A MINOR, ) Plaintiffs, ) 4 ) VS. ) JOHNSON COUNTY, TEXAS 5 ) PHILIP MORRIS COMPANIES,) 6 INC., PHILIP MORRIS ) INCORPORATED, PHILIP ) 7 MORRIS U.S.A., AND ) SHELLY MOORE, ) 8 Defendants ) 18TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 9 10 11 12 13 ORAL DEPOSITION 14 OF 15 JERRY WHIDBY 16 17 18 19 20 21 TAKEN AUGUST 28, 1996 22 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 2 1 I N D E X 2 PAGE 3 EXHIBIT INDEX - - - - - - - - - - - - 3 4 APPEARANCES - - - - - - - - - - - - - 4 5 INFORMATIONAL PARAGRAPH - - - - - - - 5 6 ERRATA PAGE - - - - - - - - - - - - - 6 7 8 THE WITNESS: JERRY WHIDBY 9 Examination By Mr. Grisham - - - 7 Examination By Mr. Markey - - - 187 10 Further Examination By Mr. Grisham 194 11 12 13 DEPOSITION CONCLUDED - - - - - - - - 205 14 WITNESS SIGNATURE PAGE - - - - - - - 206 15 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE PAGE - - - - - 207 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 3 1 E X H I B I T I N D E X 2 PAGE 3 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION MARKED 4 1 Notice of Deposition 7 5 2 Philip Morris U.S.A. 59 Interoffice Correspondence 6 dated January 31, 1980 7 3 Curriculum Vitae 143 8 4 Affidavit 144 9 5 Affidavit 144 10 6 Affidavit 144 11 7 Memorandum dated 144 August 10, 1992 12 8 Philip Morris U.S.A. 193 13 Five-Year Plan 14 9 Strategic Plan from 193 Philip Morris U.S.A. 15 Research & Development 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 4 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 For The Plaintiff: 3 Waltman & Grisham 4 3833 S. Texas Avenue, Suite 150 Bryan, Texas 77802 5 By: LYNN GRISHAM 6 For The Defendant, Philip Morris Companies, 7 Inc., et al: 8 Carrington, Coleman, Sloman & Blumenthal 200 Crescent Court, Suite 1500 9 Dallas, Texas 75201 10 By: MIKE BRADEN 11 For The Defendant, Philip Morris Companies, Inc., et al: 12 Shook, Hardy & Bacon 13 1200 Main Street Kansas City, Missouri 64105 14 By: WILLIAM CRAMPTON 15 Also By: JOHN FRASER Also By: LEE STANFORD 16 For the Defendant, Shelly Moore: 17 St. Clair & Markey 18 Summit Office Building 1200 Summit Avenue, Ste. 620 19 Fort Worth, Texas 76102 20 By: EDWARD MARKEY 21 JERRY WHIDBY, 22 The Witness 23 TAMARA J. BRAUN, Certified Shorthand Reporter 24 ALSO PRESENT: Tim Bishop, Videographer 25 Steve Discher MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 5 1 ANSWERS AND DEPOSITION OF DR. JERRY WHIDBY, 2 a witness called by the Plaintiffs, taken before 3 Tamara J. Braun, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in 4 the State of Texas, on the 28th day of August, 5 1996, between the hours of 9:30 a.m. and 4:30 p.m.; 6 in the offices of Hunton & Williams, East Tower, 7 951 East Byrd Street, Richmond, Virginia, pursuant 8 to the notice of counsel for the respective parties 9 as hereinafter set forth. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 6 1 CHANGES MADE TO DEPOSITION 2 Rule 205, "No erasures or obliterations of 3 any kind are to be made to the original testimony as transcribed by the deposition officer. Any 4 changes in form or substance which the witness desires to make shall be furnished to the 5 deposition officer by the witness, together with a statement of the reasons given by the witness for 6 making such changes." Please enter the page number, line number, 7 and the reason for such change or correction. 8 Page/Line Correction Reason for Correction 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 JERRY WHIDBY MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 7 1 (Whidby Exhibit No. 1 was 2 marked for identification.) 3 EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. GRISHAM: 5 Q. Dr. Whidby, would you state your name for the 6 record? 7 A. Jerry Frank Whidby. 8 MR. CRAMPTON: I just wanted to state 9 for the record that this deposition is confidential 10 in accordance with the protective order that's been 11 entered in this court and is to be maintained in 12 confidence according to that order. 13 The entire deposition should be maintained 14 in confidence according to the order for 30 days 15 after the transcript is received, after which time, 16 Philip Morris will designate which portions are and 17 which portions aren't confidential. I just wanted 18 to state it for the record. 19 MR. GRISHAM: Correct. 20 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Dr. Whidby, where do you 21 reside? 22 A. Urbanna, Virginia. 23 Q. How long have you lived at that address? 24 A. About four years. 25 Q. Four? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 8 1 A. Yes, sir, about four years. 2 Q. How are you employed? 3 A. I'm employed by Philip Morris. 4 Q. What specific Philip Morris entity are you 5 employed by? 6 A. Philip Morris U.S.A. 7 Q. How long have you been employed by Philip 8 Morris U.S.A.? 9 A. I'm into my 25th year. A little over 24 10 years. 11 Q. Have you at any time in the past worked for 12 any Philip Morris entity other than U.S.A.? 13 A. No, sir, I don't think so. 14 Q. What is your age? 15 A. I'm 52 right now. I was born in 1943. 16 Q. Do you recall the -- your date of hire with 17 Philip Morris U.S.A.? 18 A. No, sir, I don't. 19 Q. It was around 1971, though, correct? 20 A. No, sir. It was 1972. 21 Q. '72. Prior to becoming employed with Philip 22 Morris U.S.A., what sort of endeavors were you 23 involved in professionally or occupationally? 24 A. Prior to coming to Philip Morris, I was a 25 chemist. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 9 1 Q. Where did you work as a chemist, prior to 2 going to work for Philip Morris? 3 A. I worked with General Electric. 4 Q. How long were you with G.E.? 5 A. Approximately a year. 6 Q. And you worked for G.E. as a chemist? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Prior to going to work for G.E., where were 9 you employed? 10 A. With the U.S. Army. 11 Q. What did you do for the Army? 12 A. I was a chemist. 13 Q. How long were you with the Army? 14 A. Not quite two years. 15 Q. What did -- what sort of projects did you work 16 on in the Army? 17 A. We evaluated chemical agents. 18 Q. What sort of chemical agents did you evaluate? 19 A. We evaluated chemical agents that were used in 20 various battlefield situations. 21 Q. Prior to going into the Army, were you in 22 school? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. If you can, would you outline for me briefly 25 your educational background including degrees that MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 10 1 you received and where you received them? 2 A. I received a Ph.D. in chemistry from the 3 University of Georgia in 1970. In 1965 I received 4 a B.S. degree in chemistry from North Georgia 5 College. 6 Q. Where is that located? 7 A. Dahlonega, Georgia. 8 Q. Prior to entering into the Army, were you 9 employed in any capacity, other than summer jobs, 10 as a student? 11 A. While I was in graduate school, I was -- had 12 an assistantship, and I received some funds from 13 that. 14 Q. So you worked there at the university? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. I'm not really familiar with the chemistry 17 discipline. But while you were you in school, did 18 you focus your studies in any one particular area 19 within chemistry? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. What area was that? 22 A. Analytical physical chemistry. 23 Q. Did you prepare a thesis? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. What was the topic of that thesis? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 11 1 A. Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Studies of Various 2 Compounds. 3 MR. MARKEY: I'm sorry, various what, 4 sir? 5 THE WITNESS: Compounds. 6 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) And that was published? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Where would one be able to get a copy of 9 that? Is there a cite for it? 10 A. I don't know exactly. 11 Q. You don't remember what publication it was 12 published in? 13 A. I don't know. I assume the University of 14 Georgia has a copy of it in their library. It's an 15 assumption on my part. 16 Q. Have you ever published any other treatises, 17 papers, research projects or anything of that 18 nature in the public realm? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Starting with the earliest of those, could you 21 tell me the titles -- or if you can't recall the 22 exact titles, perhaps the subjects leading up to 23 today? 24 A. I can't recall the titles of any of them. 25 Most of them dealt with nuclear magnetic resonance MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 12 1 studies of various chemical compounds. 2 Q. Just so that I'll understand what we're 3 talking about, could you give me, to the best of 4 your ability, a layman's account of what nuclear 5 magnetic resonance studies are? 6 A. Nuclear magnetic resonance studies are the 7 evaluation or determination of the structure of 8 chemical compounds in solution, generally. 9 Sometimes you can do it with solid materials, but 10 you look at the chemical specie, what it is. 11 Q. Does it allow you, through that study, to 12 speciate various chemicals in a very minute form? 13 A. No, it does not, not in general. 14 Q. What is the practical function or utility of 15 nuclear magnetic resonance studies in the field of 16 chemistry? 17 A. It's very varied. 18 Q. It's very -- 19 A. It's a wide array of applications. 20 Q. Can you give me some examples of some of the 21 utilitarian functions of those studies today? 22 A. Today, perhaps the most utilitarian is the 23 magnetic imaging of human bodies for medical 24 purposes. 25 Q. You mentioned that most of the articles that MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 13 1 you had published dealt with that particular -- 2 that particular sort of study. How many did you -- 3 did you publish in that area? 4 A. I don't recall. 5 Q. Would it be 20 or more? 6 A. Probably. 7 Q. Less than 50? 8 A. Probably. 9 Q. I'm just trying to get a handle on the 10 volume. 11 A. Yes, sir. I really don't recall. 12 Q. Can you tell me where these publications might 13 be found? 14 A. Various Peer Review journals. 15 Q. To the best of your ability name off what 16 those journals are. 17 A. I believe one of them was Journal of American 18 Chemical Society. I believe another one was 19 Journal of Organic Chemistry. I believe another 20 one was Analytical Chemistry. I believe another 21 one might be Analytical Letters. Another one might 22 be Bytraga. I don't recall any additional ones. 23 Q. Do you recall any papers or treatises or 24 studies that you've published outside the area of 25 magnetic resonance studies? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 14 1 A. I believe I have, but I can't recall. 2 Q. In the course of your employment with Philip 3 Morris U.S.A. or any of its related entities, have 4 you conducted any research outside the United 5 States? 6 A. No, sir, not that I recall. 7 Q. Have you overseen or directed or received 8 results from research conducted by Philip Morris or 9 related entities that was conducted outside the 10 United States? 11 MR. CRAMPTON: Are you talking about 12 ignition propensity research? 13 MR. GRISHAM: Yes. 14 MR. CRAMPTON: Limit it to cigarette 15 ignition propensity, generally. 16 MR. GRISHAM: Yes. 17 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Or designs related to 18 ignition propensity projects? 19 A. I'm sorry, would you repeat the question? 20 Q. I was afraid you were going to ask that, 21 Dr. Whidby. 22 MR. GRISHAM: Could you read that back, 23 because it was a pretty long question. 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 15 1 (Whereupon the previous question was read 2 back as follows: "Have you overseen or 3 directed or received results from research 4 conducted by Philip Morris or related 5 entities that was conducted outside 6 the United States?") 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Why do you not know? 9 A. I don't know that all the data that I've 10 received was from the U.S. I don't -- I just don't 11 know. 12 Q. You don't know one way or the other? 13 A. No, sir, not that I -- I can't say. 14 Q. Do you know whether or not Philip Morris or 15 any related entities conducted or have conducted 16 ignition propensity studies outside the United 17 States? 18 MR. CRAMPTON: I'm sorry to interrupt. 19 But by "related entities," do you mean Philip 20 Morris incorporate entities? Or by "related 21 entities," do you mean something beyond that? 22 MR. GRISHAM: I do. And particularly 23 what I'm thinking about is maybe subcontractors, 24 companies that he may contract with to do work for 25 him. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 16 1 MR. CRAMPTON: If I could just try to 2 clear up just one thing. There has been some 3 research that's been done by this group called 4 CORESTA that you talked about yesterday. Some 5 members of CORESTA are not within the United 6 States. So if you could sort of exclude that, it 7 would make the question easier for the witness, I 8 think. 9 THE WITNESS: I need to ask a question 10 of you, too, about -- 11 MR. CRAMPTON: Can we go off the record 12 for a minute? 13 MR. GRISHAM: Sure. 14 (Brief recess.) 15 MR. CRAMPTON: Lynn, in addition to the 16 CORESTA work that some of the members of which are 17 outside of the United States, one of the members of 18 a thing called the Joint Venture is Brown & 19 Williamson. And in connection with that, B.A.T., 20 which is in London, may have done some research. I 21 assume you're excluding that? 22 MR. GRISHAM: Those are all things I 23 was going to ask about today. 24 MR. CRAMPTON: Okay. If you could -- 25 in the course of the questioning -- the way you've MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 17 1 worded the question makes it hard for the witness 2 to answer it, because he's thinking about B.A.T. 3 research that may have been done for CORESTA or for 4 the Joint Venture. 5 If you're asking about is Philip Morris 6 doing ignition propensity research outside of the 7 United States, you know, if you could limit it to 8 that, it would be easier for the witness to answer 9 the question. 10 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah. I'll try to do -- 11 I'll try to do a good job of asking the questions 12 so we can answer it. 13 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Obviously what I'm aiming at 14 in the course of these questions are to try to 15 determine the location of any research that's been 16 undertaken on any ignition propensity project. And 17 I understand from talking to counsel that some 18 members of CORESTA live outside the United States, 19 and that created some difficulty for you. Perhaps 20 B.A.T. had conducted a research, and that's not a 21 Philip Morris entity. 22 So I'm going to exclude in my question the 23 CORESTA project for now and any of the B.A.T. 24 research for now, and ask if other than those 25 circumstances, Philip Morris or any related entity MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 18 1 has conducted, overseen or asked for research to be 2 conducted outside the United States on any ignition 3 propensity cigarette up until today? 4 A. Not to the best of my knowledge. 5 Q. While we're on the topic, we might as well go 6 ahead and talk about CORESTA and the Joint Venture 7 project. 8 First of all, give me a rough idea of what 9 the CORESTA group is or was. 10 A. Which CORESTA group? 11 Q. I take it by your answer there have been more 12 than one? 13 MR. CRAMPTON: There's a CORESTA task 14 force on ignition propensity. There are also 15 CORESTA task forces on many other subjects. 16 MR. GRISHAM: Fair enough. 17 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) What is CORESTA as a general 18 global entity? 19 A. CORESTA is a scientific body that's 20 constituted, as I understand, out of France. It 21 involves, both, members of the tobacco industry as 22 well as suppliers of the tobacco industry--flavor 23 houses, filter suppliers, you name it. It's a wide 24 array of different people. It's an international 25 organization all over the world. And they direct MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 19 1 their research efforts at tobacco-type research. 2 Q. One facet of that being a task force on 3 ignition propensity? 4 A. Yes, there is a task force on ignition 5 propensity. 6 Q. Is CORESTA an acronym for some name? 7 A. Yes, sir, it is. 8 Q. Can you tell me what it is? 9 A. No, sir, I can't. 10 Q. Is it some -- is it a French name? 11 A. Yes, sir, it is. 12 Q. How did CORESTA come into existence, if you 13 know? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Do you know about when CORESTA came to be? 16 A. No, sir, I don't. 17 Q. Do you know how CORESTA is funded? 18 A. No, sir, I don't. 19 Q. Is Philip Morris U.S.A. a member of CORESTA? 20 A. Yes, sir, it is. To the best of my knowledge, 21 it is a member. 22 Q. Does CORESTA, as a project, have an office, if 23 you will; in other words, a complex that is 24 dedicated to it and the research it undertakes? 25 A. I think it does. I'm not -- I think it does. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 20 1 Q. Is that in France? 2 A. Yes, sir, I believe so. This is to the best 3 of my knowledge. I'm not positive about that 4 either. 5 Q. I understand. I'm just asking for your best 6 information. 7 A. Right. 8 Q. Do you know whether or not CORESTA has any 9 research facilities dealing with ignition 10 propensity in any other European countries? 11 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection; it sounds as 12 though implied in that is there is a research 13 facility on ignition propensity in France -- 14 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah, it was. It was -- 15 MR. CRAMPTON: -- and that is not the 16 case. 17 MR. GRISHAM: Okay. Thank you. 18 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Does CORESTA have any 19 facilities it dedicates to ignition propensity 20 research anywhere? 21 A. Not to my knowledge. 22 Q. Does it draw upon the research of its various 23 members in that area? 24 A. What do you mean by "that area"? 25 Q. Ignition propensity. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 21 1 A. To the best of my knowledge it does, yes. 2 Q. Is the ignition propensity task force, as a 3 part of CORESTA, a task force that included members 4 employed by Philip Morris U.S.A.? 5 A. Yes. To the best of my knowledge it does. 6 Q. Do you recall who those persons are or have 7 been in the past? 8 A. I've been the primary member of the CORESTA 9 task force. 10 Q. For how long? 11 A. I don't recall exactly. 12 Q. Can you give me your estimate within -- it may 13 be, you know, greater than five years, less than a 14 year? Just any broad estimate? 15 A. Excluding the first meeting that occurred, I 16 think I've -- I think I've been present at all the 17 meetings. 18 Q. For a span of about how many years or months 19 or? 20 A. Without being precise about it, it's got to be 21 something in the order of five or six more years. 22 I don't know. 23 Q. We're not talking about a year or two? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. It's longer than that? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 22 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Was your involvement with CORESTA something 3 that you began after Project Hamlet had wound down 4 at Philip Morris? 5 A. Please repeat, I'm sorry. 6 Q. Sure. Did your beginning to work with the 7 ignition propensity task force at CORESTA come 8 about at or near the time the Hamlet project was 9 ending or winding down? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 Q. Does the Tobacco Institute have any membership 12 on the CORESTA -- any of the CORESTA teams? 13 A. Not that I'm aware of, but I don't know. 14 Q. Is there any membership of academic folks from 15 the universities on any of the CORESTA projects? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And particularly the ignition propensity 18 project? 19 A. I'm not aware of anybody. 20 Q. Okay. Does CORESTA have any membership -- 21 A. Not that I can recall. That I can recall -- 22 I'm not aware of anybody that I can recall. 23 Q. Fair enough. Does CORESTA have any membership 24 that you're aware of from any governmental entities 25 or bodies? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 23 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. How did CORESTA come to be formed? 3 MR. CRAMPTON: You mean the task force 4 on ignition propensity or the overall 5 organization? 6 MR. GRISHAM: I was talking -- 7 MR. CRAMPTON: Because you've already 8 asked about the overall organization, but I don't 9 care if you reask it. 10 MR. GRISHAM: I don't want to repeat. 11 I just... 12 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Do you have any knowledge of 13 how the overall concept of CORESTA came about, if 14 it was the branch out of one person? 15 A. No, sir, I don't. I'm sorry. 16 Q. Now, with respect to the task force on 17 ignition propensity, do you know how it came into 18 existence? 19 A. No, sir, not exactly. 20 Q. I may have to ask you to give me as much 21 information as you have. I know you don't know 22 exactly, but if you have some intuitive idea of how 23 it came about, I'd like to know your best thoughts 24 on that. 25 A. CORESTA task forces are generally formed at MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 24 1 the general meeting of the CORESTA group. Somebody 2 recommends that it's -- that some work be done in a 3 particular area and it's taken under advisement, as 4 I understand, by the scientific commission and the 5 task force set in place. 6 To the best of my knowledge, that's how this 7 occurred, but I really don't know. 8 Q. Are any of the membership companies allowed 9 access to the fruits of the research of CORESTA and 10 particularly the ignition propensity project? 11 MR. CRAMPTON: By "fruits" you mean 12 results of the research? 13 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah. 14 A. What was the first part of your -- what was 15 the question? 16 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Are the members -- the 17 entity members of the CORESTA organization or 18 project, as you might call it, given the 19 opportunity to access the results of research on 20 ignition propensity and the results of the 21 research? 22 A. Yes, sir, to the best of my knowledge they 23 are. 24 Q. Is the ignition propensity task force a 25 vehicle by which different companies can share MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 25 1 information on ignition propensity studies? 2 A. What we do is limit it primarily to -- well, 3 it's limited to what we do in the CORESTA group. 4 Q. So the members of the group have access to the 5 research, but otherwise it's not available to the 6 companies that are members of the group? 7 A. No, sir. I don't think that's what I said or 8 implied. 9 Q. Okay. I misunderstood, I'm sorry. What I'm 10 trying to understand is you, on behalf of Philip 11 Morris, and, I assume, Brown & Williamson probably 12 has a representative; Leggett probably has a 13 representative, correct? 14 A. I don't know whether Leggett has a 15 representative or not. 16 MR. CRAMPTON: That's a multiple 17 question. It's actually three different questions. 18 And if you broke it down, you'd probably get two 19 yeses and a no. 20 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Okay. Well, what I'm trying 21 to understand is there are various companies that 22 are members of the task force, correct? 23 A. Yes, sir, there are various companies that are 24 members of the task group. 25 Q. And the information they're hoping to achieve MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 26 1 -- that you're hoping to achieve will be of 2 benefit to your employer, correct? 3 A. Information, yes. To the best of my 4 knowledge, that's the reason I'm on the task force. 5 Q. Correct. And what I assumed--and perhaps I 6 shouldn't have jumped to this conclusion--but I 7 assume the information that becomes available to 8 you as a member of the task force is something that 9 is available to Philip Morris U.S.A. to use, 10 evaluate, discount, if they want to, in terms of 11 designing cigarettes? 12 MR. CRAMPTON: Do you understand the 13 question, Jerry? 14 THE WITNESS: No, not really. 15 MR. CRAMPTON: It's a little bit 16 complicated and -- 17 MR. GRISHAM: Let me try again. 18 MR. CRAMPTON: -- I can try to 19 reformulate it for you. 20 MR. GRISHAM: I will. I'll try again. 21 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) In the course of working on 22 the ignition propensity project at CORESTA, I 23 assume that ideas or, perhaps, research results 24 become known to the members of the project; am I 25 correct in that? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 27 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Is that information something that you pass 3 along to Philip Morris U.S.A. and the other groups 4 that you might work with on ignition propensity 5 studies? 6 A. In general, yes. 7 Q. Is there some information that you're not 8 allowed to pass on or that for some reason cannot 9 pass from the CORESTA task force to Philip Morris 10 and the various groups that are working on ignition 11 propensities? 12 A. No, sir, not that I'm aware of. 13 Q. Has CORESTA and the different studies and 14 research that has been undertaken through CORESTA, 15 in fact, provided Philip Morris U.S.A. with 16 valuable research and data in terms of ignition 17 propensity studies? 18 A. Yes, sir, I believe so. 19 Q. As part of any of the CORESTA projects 20 research, have commercial Philip Morris brands of 21 cigarettes been tested for ignition propensity 22 qualities? 23 MR. CRAMPTON: I'm sorry, could you 24 just repeat the question for me? I was taking a 25 note. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 28 1 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah. 2 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Through the CORESTA project 3 and any research undertaken in conjunction with the 4 project, have any Philip Morris commercial brand 5 cigarettes been tested for their ignition 6 characteristics, propensities or qualities? 7 A. No, sir, not to my knowledge. 8 Q. Have any of the other CORESTA member 9 commercial brand cigarettes been tested for 10 ignition componentry, qualities, characteristics? 11 A. No, sir, not to my knowledge. 12 Q. If I understood you a moment ago, CORESTA 13 doesn't have an ignition propensity laboratory -- 14 testing laboratory; was I right? 15 A. To my knowledge, they do not have such a 16 laboratory. 17 Q. If a CORESTA project, test project, is 18 formulated and the parameters are set and testing 19 is undertaken, where would the testing take place 20 for ignition propensity? 21 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection. Sorry, I'm 22 just trying to make it very clear. You said where 23 would the testing take place. And it depends -- I 24 mean, you're talking about apparently something 25 that hasn't happened, so it's hard for him to say MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 29 1 on that. 2 If you want to ask where did the testing 3 take place, he would know that. 4 MR. GRISHAM: Well, that's what I 5 intended to ask. Let me reformulate the question. 6 Maybe I can do a better job and not confuse the 7 witness. 8 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Has any testing been 9 undertaken under the CORESTA project for ignition 10 propensity in a laboratory? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Where has that testing been undertaken? 13 A. In various locations. 14 Q. Tell me where they are. 15 A. I'm not sure I can tell you all the locations. 16 Q. Tell me as many as you can. 17 A. One of them is here in Richmond in our 18 laboratory. I suppose the rest -- the data came 19 from the rest of the organization, so I don't know 20 the exact location where they did the work because 21 I wasn't present for the work. 22 But there was -- there has been data 23 reported from Japan Tobacco. 24 Q. What? 25 A. Japan Tobacco. Ecusta, Reynolds, Lorilord, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 30 1 Brown & Williamson, that I recall. 2 Q. And do you have access to that data as a 3 member of the project? 4 A. I have access to the data that was given to 5 the CORESTA group. 6 Q. Is that data contained in documentary or 7 electronic form or both? 8 A. It's a multipart question. 9 Q. Okay. Let's take it one by one. Is the data 10 from the CORESTA project maintained in documentary 11 form in any sense? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. In terms of the documentary data that you have 14 access to, is that contained -- is that here in 15 Richmond? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Is any of the data from the CORESTA project 18 maintained in electronic form, whether it be on 19 CD-ROM, on tape, on video format, any electronic 20 format? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. About 15 or 20 minutes ago we were talking 23 about research outside the United States and you 24 mentioned the CORESTA project and also the B.A.T. 25 research. Has Philip Morris U.S.A. had access to MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 31 1 any ignition propensity research conducted by or on 2 behalf of B.A.T.? 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. When we were going through that line of 5 questioning about related entities, ignition 6 propensity research, both CORESTA and B.A.T. were 7 mentioned. What did you mean when you mentioned 8 B.A.T.? What idea was in your mind that prompted 9 you to mention the B.A.T. research or data? 10 A. B.A.T. is a member of the CORESTA group. 11 Q. Except for B.A.T.'s membership in CORESTA and 12 the information it may have provided to CORESTA 13 members, are you aware of any other research on 14 ignition propensity that has emanated from B.A.T. 15 that Philip Morris U.S.A. has had access to it? 16 A. No, sir, not to my knowledge. 17 Q. Are ignition propensity studies still being 18 undertaken by the CORESTA project? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Are there any planned or proposed ignition 21 propensity studies through CORESTA now in the 22 works? 23 A. Could you help me with what "in the works" 24 means? 25 Q. In the planning stages, proposed. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 32 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What is -- what are the parameters of the 3 proposed testing, the parameters and the 4 objectives? 5 A. One of the parameters I know of is to evaluate 6 the ignition propensity in a crevice with various 7 commercial fabrics. 8 Q. Which members are going to undertake 9 responsibility for that testing? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Do you know where that testing will likely be 12 performed? 13 A. No, sir, I don't. 14 Q. How often do you attend meetings of the 15 CORESTA ignition propensity group? 16 A. To my knowledge, I've only missed one. 17 Q. Are they an annual event or monthly special 18 meetings? 19 A. They're generally special meetings, although 20 there is an annual CORESTA meeting. 21 Q. About how often are the special meetings held? 22 A. It's hard to say how often. 23 Q. Would it be at least once a year? 24 A. Historically it's been at least once a year. 25 Q. Would it be at least once a quarter? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 33 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. Are the meetings of the group usually held in 3 France, or are they in various locations? 4 A. They're generally held in various locations. 5 Q. Have any of the CORESTA ignition propensity 6 project group meetings been held in the United 7 States? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Have any of the results of the ignition 10 propensity project through CORESTA been made 11 available to persons or entities outside the group? 12 MR. CRAMPTON: The group being the task 13 force? 14 MR. GRISHAM: Yes. 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Who or to which entities 17 have they been made available? 18 A. All the other members of the CORESTA 19 organization. 20 Q. Outside the CORESTA organization, have the 21 test results or information from the work of the 22 project been revealed to others? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. To whom? 25 A. Some of the data from the CORESTA work has MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 34 1 been published in Peer Review journals. 2 Q. When it's published, is the CORESTA group 3 given credit for it, the publication and the work, 4 under the name CORESTA? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. Has any branch of the federal or any state 7 government been provided information from the 8 CORESTA ignition propensity project? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. What groups have been provided that 11 information? 12 A. NIST was provided with some of the 13 information. 14 MR. MARKEY: I'm sorry, who? 15 THE WITNESS: NIST, N-I-S-T. 16 MR. MARKEY: Thank you. 17 A. CPSC, probably others. 18 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) What was the context of that 19 information being provided, was it by request of 20 these entities or for some other reason? 21 A. I recall, I believe it was at the request of 22 some of these organizations. 23 Q. Was the CORESTA ignition propensity project 24 developed to counter the studies that the NIST were 25 performing as a result of the Fire-Safe Cigarette MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 35 1 Act of 1990? 2 MR. CRAMPTON: Object to the form. You 3 can answer. 4 A. No, sir, I don't think so. 5 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Was there any effort by the 6 CORESTA ignition propensity project to disprove the 7 NIST work on fire-safe cigarettes? 8 MR. CRAMPTON: Object to form again. 9 You can answer. 10 A. I don't think so. Scientific data is -- 11 generally speaks for itself, and it either is or 12 isn't correct. 13 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Okay. Are you a member of 14 any associations or societies or fellowships in the 15 area of chemistry or tobacco science? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Give me a list of those memberships, if you 18 will, please. 19 A. I'm a member of the American Chemical 20 Society. I'm a member of the A.S.T.M., the 21 American Society of Testing Materials. I can't 22 recall others, but I'm... 23 Q. There may be others? 24 A. Yes, sir. I'm also a member of CORESTA. 25 Q. Has the CORESTA project dealt with the issues MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 36 1 of subjective -- the subjective components of the 2 cigarette design? 3 A. No, sir, not to my knowledge. 4 Q. Has it dealt with the issues of commercial 5 feasibility of reduced ignition propensity 6 cigarettes? 7 A. No, sir, not to my knowledge. I assume you're 8 referring to CORESTA? 9 Q. Yes. We'll talk about your other research 10 work in a minute. Right now I'm just talking about 11 CORESTA. 12 Have you received any awards or honorariums 13 in the field of chemistry? 14 A. No, sir, not that I recall. 15 Q. Have you ever worked on any research project 16 that -- that was funded, at least in part, by 17 government grants? 18 A. Would you restate that, please? 19 Q. Certainly. Have you ever worked on any 20 research project that was funded in any respect by 21 government grants? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Tell me what those have been. 24 A. When I was working for General Electric, it 25 was part of NASA. When I was working for the Army, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 37 1 it was part of the U.S. Government. 2 Q. Any others? 3 A. Not that I can recall. 4 Q. Any grants dealing with -- 5 A. Excuse me, except for perhaps when I was in 6 graduate school. 7 Q. Have any of the projects you've worked on 8 dealing with tobacco studies been funded in any 9 part by governmental grants? 10 A. Not that I'm aware of, no, sir. 11 Q. Do you have any experience teaching? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. What has that experience been? 14 A. Part of my graduate courses or graduate 15 experience, I taught, like all graduate students 16 do. I also was an adjunct faculty member of V.C.U. 17 here in Richmond when I first came to Richmond. 18 Q. What did you teach at V.C.U.? 19 A. Chemistry. 20 Q. When was the last time you were in a 21 classroom? 22 A. I don't recall. 23 Q. Has it been greater than five years ago? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Greater than ten? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 38 1 A. I really don't recall. It was an infrequent 2 occurrence most of the time. 3 Q. Typically when you would lecture at V.C.U., 4 was it on an invitation for a specific -- 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. -- time as opposed to teaching an entire 7 class? 8 A. It was both. 9 Q. Okay. Have you ever given your deposition 10 before? 11 A. Have I ever given a deposition before, yes, 12 sir. 13 Q. On how many occasions? 14 A. I don't recall. 15 Q. More than ten? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. More than five? 18 A. I don't recall. 19 Q. Something less than ten? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Okay. Starting with the most recent 22 deposition before today, to the best of your 23 recollection, tell me when you -- or under what 24 circumstances you gave a deposition? 25 A. I gave a deposition to the Justice MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 39 1 Department. I can't recall the date of that. 2 Q. Was it within the last year? 3 A. I don't think so. 4 Q. The last three years? 5 A. Yes, sir, I think so. Prior to that -- I'm 6 sorry. 7 Q. I'm sorry. 8 A. Go ahead. 9 Q. Was there any discussion of ignition 10 propensity in that deposition? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Who was interrogating you at the Justice 13 Department? 14 A. I don't recall his name. 15 Q. Was there a single person, versus a panel? 16 A. There was both. 17 Q. Did you appear before employees of the 18 Department of Justice for this deposition, or was 19 it in a more private setting like we're at today? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. Was there a lawsuit pending that this 22 deposition arose from? 23 A. I think so. 24 Q. Do you know what the style or title of that 25 lawsuit was? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 40 1 A. I don't know what's meant by "style." 2 Q. The name, the parties, like Jones versus 3 Philip Morris? 4 A. No, I don't. 5 Q. Do you know what the circumstances of the 6 lawsuit were? 7 A. In general, I think so. 8 Q. Can you relate that to me, please? 9 A. As I understand it, we were under 10 investigation for working with the competition. 11 Q. It was an antitrust sort of -- 12 A. To the best of my knowledge, something like 13 that. 14 MR. CRAMPTON: I could shorten this a 15 little bit if you -- 16 A. You tell him. 17 MR. GRISHAM: Sure. 18 MR. CRAMPTON: There was a civil 19 investigative demand against Philip Morris and 20 other companies, and there was no case filed. In 21 the course of that there was some depositions, 22 including Dr. Whidby. 23 MR. GRISHAM: Okay. Thank you. 24 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) You agree with that? 25 A. Yes, sir. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 41 1 Q. All right. 2 MR. MARKEY: I don't want to interrupt, 3 but when was that? 4 MR. CRAMPTON: I think it was in '95, 5 but I don't remember. 6 MR. STANFORD: '94, '95. 7 A. So it was within the three-year time frame or 8 something like -- 9 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) You're right. 10 A. Try to be. 11 Q. Excluding the Department of Justice deposition 12 you've just described, have you given any other 13 depositions that you can recall the circumstances 14 of or the timing of, in other words, about when you 15 gave it? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Do you have any of those deposition 18 transcripts with you today? 19 MR. CRAMPTON: You. 20 A. Do I? 21 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Yes. 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Do you have them available to you today? 24 MR. CRAMPTON: Do you have a copy of 25 the C.I.D. deposition transcript is the question? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 42 1 A. No, sir, I don't. 2 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Do you know where any copies 3 are today? 4 A. Not exactly. 5 Q. Do you know generally where they might be? 6 Are there any copies in Richmond? 7 A. I assume there are. 8 Q. Are there any -- 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. -- copies in this building? 11 A. I don't know. I really don't know. 12 Q. When is the last time you saw a copy of any of 13 the deposition transcripts? 14 A. I don't recall. 15 Q. Within the last week? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Within the last month? 18 A. No, sir, not that I recall. 19 Q. We've established, to the best of your 20 recollection, you've given somewhat less than ten 21 depositions. What I didn't ask you and I need to 22 ask you is whether or not each of those depositions 23 dealt with any respect to ignition propensity 24 studies? 25 A. Other than the one we just discussed? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 43 1 Q. Yes. 2 A. No, sir, not to my knowledge. 3 Q. Today's deposition is the first time you've 4 been asked to give testimony concerning ignition 5 propensity issues? 6 MR. CRAMPTON: Other than this one 7 deposition that you've talked about? 8 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah. 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Okay. We've got the 11 Department of Justice deposition you've already 12 told me about, and that dealt to some degree with 13 ignition propensity? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Obviously, we're talking today about it? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Other than these two circumstances, have you 18 ever been asked to or have you given testimony in 19 any court proceeding or deposition setting 20 concerning ignition propensity issues? 21 A. No, sir, not to my knowledge. 22 Q. What documents or tangible things did you 23 review in preparation for your deposition today? 24 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection to the extent 25 that that calls for privileged information which MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 44 1 would include any documents he reviewed in the 2 presence of counsel while meeting with counsel. 3 MR. GRISHAM: Are you directing the 4 witness not to answer? 5 MR. CRAMPTON: I am. 6 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Are you going to take the 7 advice of counsel? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Have you reviewed documents--I'm not asking 10 you what they are--but did you review documents or 11 tangible things in preparation for your deposition? 12 A. Other than -- 13 Q. Don't tell me what they are because your 14 lawyer's made an objection. 15 MR. CRAMPTON: He's asking you whether 16 you did look at documents. 17 A. Oh, yes, sir. 18 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Can you give me an idea of 19 the volume, whether in number of pages or inches of 20 documents or binders or however else you can best 21 quantify it for me? 22 A. Maybe about that much (indicating). 23 Q. Okay. About three or four inches? 24 A. Maybe, something like that. 25 Q. Are you familiar with the term "Project MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 45 1 Delta"? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Can you tell me what Project Delta is or was? 4 A. Project Delta, I can't tell you that because 5 there's been more than one Project Delta. 6 Q. How many Project Delta's have there been? 7 A. To my knowledge, two. 8 Q. What did Project Delta No. 1 deal with? 9 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection to the extent 10 that either of these Project Delta's may not have 11 anything to do with ignition propensity and to the 12 extent they may be trade secret. 13 If they're not relevant to the case, I will 14 instruct the witness not to answer it, but you can 15 establish whether they are related to ignition 16 propensity. 17 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Was Project Delta No. 1 or 18 No. 2 related in any way to ignition propensity 19 studies? 20 A. Not to my knowledge. 21 Q. Were either Project Delta 1 or 2 related in 22 any way to the development or study of a fire-safe 23 cigarette? 24 A. Not to my knowledge. 25 Q. Or a reduced ignition propensity cigarette? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 46 1 A. I don't -- can you ask that again, please? 2 Q. Yes. Was there any aspect of Project Delta 3 No. 1 or No. 2 that dealt in any fashion with the 4 study of or research surrounding reduced ignition 5 propensity cigarettes? 6 A. I don't think so. 7 Q. Was there any aspect of Delta 1 or 2 that 8 yielded research materials or data that has been 9 relied upon by Philip Morris and its ongoing 10 studies of a reduced ignition propensity cigarette? 11 A. I don't think so. 12 THE WITNESS: I need to talk with you. 13 MR. CRAMPTON: Maybe now would be a 14 good time for a break. 15 (Brief recess.) 16 MR. CRAMPTON: Lynn, you were asking 17 questions about Project Delta, and I'm not sure the 18 question ever really got to it. I talked with 19 Dr. Whidby and learned that Project Delta was not 20 being looked into for anything related to ignition 21 propensity, but the things they were looking at may 22 have had an impact on I.P. incidentally. 23 So having learned that, I won't instruct the 24 witness not to answer questions on Delta. 25 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Dr. Whidby, going just to MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 47 1 the heart of the topic raised by counsel, what 2 aspects of Project Delta--either 1 or 2 or 3 both--had an impact on ignition propensity studies? 4 A. None that I'm aware of. 5 Q. How were any of the projects or work done on 6 Delta 1 or 2 related to ignition propensity? 7 A. Not that I'm aware of, none. 8 Q. Were any of the results of testing or data 9 collection in Delta 1 or 2 relied upon in either 10 ignition propensity studies or in the design or 11 evaluation of cigarettes with reduced ignition 12 propensity? 13 A. No, sir, I don't think so. 14 Q. Okay. 15 MR. GRISHAM: Is that not what you just 16 said? 17 MR. CRAMPTON: When you're talking 18 about ignition propensity studies, I think you're 19 talking -- or at least I think you're talking about 20 some sort of test where you're putting cigarettes 21 on some thing to determine whether there's an 22 ignition or not. None of that occurred. 23 MR. GRISHAM: I was talking about more 24 globally the fire-safe cigarette, the reduced 25 ignition propensity cigarette as a general MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 48 1 topic--the subject of Hamlet. 2 MR. CRAMPTON: Maybe you could ask what 3 aspects of what you were looking at in Project 4 Delta would have had an impact on ignition 5 propensity. That might help. 6 MR. GRISHAM: If that will get me an 7 answer, I'll darn sure ask it. 8 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Dr. Whidby, what aspects of 9 Delta 1 or 2 had an impact in any way on ignition 10 propensity? 11 A. I don't know of any that did. 12 MR. CRAMPTON: I would allow you to ask 13 about Project Delta and what they were looking at. 14 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) All right. What were you 15 looking at with Project Delta? 16 A. Delta 1 was a project in which we were trying 17 to come up with a design of a cigarette or a design 18 of a cigarette that would more efficiently create 19 smoke than our current products. 20 Q. Okay. Did that have to do with sidestream 21 smoke issues or environmental smoke issues? 22 A. I don't -- no, I don't think so. I don't 23 know. 24 Q. You were trying to -- or you were researching 25 the development of a cigarette that created less MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 49 1 smoke? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Or dispersed less smoke? 4 A. No, sir, I don't think so. 5 Q. What was it supposed to do? What was the 6 goal? 7 A. In a standard cigarette, it weighs about 8 three-quarters of a gram--the tobacco in it--but 9 let's say a gram, right. A round number is a 10 gram. And you burn a gram of tobacco to produce a 11 few milligrams of smoke, that's not very 12 efficient. 13 So the concept of Delta originally was to 14 have a more efficient smoke generation cigarette. 15 Q. How would that benefit the consumer or Philip 16 Morris, for instance? 17 A. Well, I mean, there's conceivable benefits 18 from less environmental smoke perhaps, right? That 19 could be one. There could be others. 20 Q. Okay. Such as? 21 A. Depends on how the design is. I mean, the 22 design is so important in that--what your goals 23 are. 24 Q. How did the work generated from Delta 1 or 2 25 carry over or provide carry-over data into the MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 50 1 realm of the fire-safe cigarette? 2 A. To my knowledge, it didn't. 3 MR. CRAMPTON: Here's the struggle. 4 You're trying to convert Delta into some other -- 5 you know, how did Delta become something other than 6 what it is. 7 MR. GRISHAM: Really what I'm trying to 8 do--and I'm not playing any sort of games with 9 you--I'm trying to figure out if something 10 developed in Delta, which I'm really not interested 11 in, somehow was used in the issue of developing or 12 testing a cigarette that may have had -- 13 MR. CRAMPTON: Okay. You are getting 14 the right answers, then. 15 MR. GRISHAM: -- that may have had 16 ignition propensity and reduced ignition propensity 17 qualities. 18 MR. CRAMPTON: Okay. You're getting 19 the right answers. I mean, you can go ahead and 20 ask him again, if you'd like. How about this, 21 could we go off the record for just a minute? We 22 can all sit right here. 23 MR. GRISHAM: Sure. 24 (Discussion off the record.) 25 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Dr. Whidby, with respect to MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 51 1 Delta 1 and 2, which I understand was an effort to 2 create a cigarette that would burn more efficiently 3 and create smoke more efficiently, correct? 4 A. Yes, sir. It creates smoke more efficiently. 5 Q. In so doing, did the research center around 6 altering the tobacco blend, or was that an aspect 7 of the research? 8 A. It did not center around altering the tobacco 9 blend. 10 Q. The blend alteration, was that a part of the 11 research that was done on Delta? 12 A. It could have been. I can't say that was... 13 Q. Tobacco density, was that an aspect of Delta 14 research? 15 A. Not to my knowledge. 16 Q. Paper porosity, was that an aspect of Delta 1 17 or 2? 18 A. Not in -- no, not to my knowledge. Not in 19 terms of -- no, not to my knowledge. 20 Q. Was cigarette size an aspect of research in 21 Delta 1 or 2? 22 A. Not to my knowledge. 23 Q. In the work that was conducted on Delta 1 or 24 2, did prototypical cigarettes used in testing tend 25 to self-extinguish? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 52 1 A. What do you mean by "self-extinguish"? 2 Q. What I was thinking about was cease to burn 3 without someone making an effort to stop them from 4 burning. 5 MR. CRAMPTON: Before reaching the end 6 of a cigarette? 7 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah. 8 A. The problem with reaching the end of the 9 cigarette is these did not consume themselves. The 10 Delta 2 products, which was the evolution from 11 Delta 1, they didn't go -- they didn't get smaller 12 in length. So the term "self-extinguishing" is a 13 little bit vague. 14 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Have you ever, in the course 15 of your work with Philip Morris, heard the term 16 "self-extinguishing cigarette" used? 17 A. Yes, I have. 18 Q. What does that mean to you? 19 A. It can have various meanings. 20 Q. Tell me what the meanings are to you. 21 A. One of the meanings is that during the -- when 22 you're smoking a cigarette, it will go out before 23 you finish it without doing anything to it, right. 24 Another meaning of self-extinguishing is if 25 you're evaluating a substrate that you're looking MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 53 1 at for trying to measure something related to 2 ignition propensity, that it might go out on the 3 substrate before it burned its full length or 4 before it ignited the substrate and caused the 5 substrate to smolder. 6 Q. As I understood a moment ago, or I thought I 7 understood, in the course of Delta 1 or Delta 2, 8 prototypical cigarettes were not tested for their 9 effect on substrates, correct? 10 A. To my knowledge, they were not. 11 Q. Was any evaluation of Delta 1 or 2 cigarettes 12 made with respect to whether or not they would go 13 out while being smoked, which was Category 1 of 14 what you described as your understanding of 15 self-extinguishing? 16 A. It's a difficult question to answer. In Delta 17 2 -- Delta 2 you measured the number of puffs that 18 you got out of the article. And whether or not it 19 was eight puffs or ten puffs or six puffs, you 20 recorded -- you could record the number of puffs. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. So, again, self-extinguishment there I don't 23 -- is a difficult term. 24 Q. As a part of the evaluation of Delta 1 or 2, 25 whether it was puff count evaluation or any other MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 54 1 evaluation, was there any notation made or finding 2 reached that any of the subject cigarettes tended 3 to go out on their own while being smoked? 4 A. Not that I recall. 5 Q. Was there any other finding or evaluation 6 notation that dealt with Delta cigarettes 7 self-extinguishing before they reached the end of 8 the cigarette? 9 A. Generally on the Delta cigarette, one of our 10 concerns was how easy it is to light. Some were 11 very difficult to light, depending upon the carbon 12 heat source we used -- heat source used to heat the 13 tobacco. So the term "self-extinguishment" may 14 have been used there. I don't recall, but it may 15 have been. 16 Q. Okay. Who was the project leader for Delta 1 17 or 2? 18 MR. CRAMPTON: Assuming if there was a 19 different project leader, you would get two people 20 as an answer. 21 MR. GRISHAM: May get two, may get 22 one. 23 A. I don't recall who was project leader of 24 Delta 1. I was involved with Delta 2. 25 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) I'm sorry, the machine over MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 55 1 here was zipping around, I couldn't hear what you 2 said. 3 A. I was involved with Delta 2. I was the 4 manager of the group that was in. 5 Q. Who was the manager of 1, if you recall? 6 A. I don't recall. 7 Q. Was there -- was there any other Delta project 8 other than Delta 1 or 2? 9 A. Not that I can recall. Let me be clear too. 10 Delta 1 and Delta 2 are terms that I'm using right 11 now, and I'm not sure the record really shows -- 12 calls it Delta 1 or Delta 2. But I'm 13 distinguishing from the early phases of Delta to 14 the latter phases of Delta. 15 Q. Okay. Are there various levels of 16 confidentiality associated with Philip Morris 17 projects like Delta? 18 A. There are various levels of confidentiality. 19 Q. What are the names of these levels? Are they 20 secret, super secret, super-duper secret, or is 21 there some other means of describing the levels of 22 confidentiality? 23 MR. CRAMPTON: Assuming that there are 24 such names. 25 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Okay. Or numbers, however MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 56 1 else one might differentiate a level of 2 confidentiality? 3 A. Okay. Let's -- do the question, please. 4 Q. Sure. How are the different levels of 5 confidentiality with regard to Philip Morris 6 projects differentiated--numerically or by name or 7 otherwise? 8 MR. CRAMPTON: Can I throw another 9 possible in here? 10 MR. GRISHAM: Do whatever you want to. 11 MR. CRAMPTON: There may be levels of 12 confidentiality applied to documents, not at the 13 time they're written, but at the time they may be 14 requested for production in a case. And then there 15 may also be confidentiality levels within the 16 company without regard to litigation. 17 I don't know whether you're asking about 18 one, the other, or both. And it's -- I mean, I 19 think you're asking about not in relation to 20 production of documents for litigation, but the way 21 the company looks at it. 22 MR. GRISHAM: You're exactly right. 23 A. So you want to know how we classify our 24 documents? 25 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Yes. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 57 1 A. The first classification is unclassified, it's 2 business. Of course, we don't want -- we try to 3 keep that within our own walls, too, of course. 4 There's a classification of confidential. There's 5 a classification of restricted, and there's a 6 classification of trade secret. These are 7 classifications I recall. I may have left one 8 out. I hope not. 9 Q. Were -- as you just described them, were they 10 advancing in their level of restriction or secrecy? 11 A. I think that's right. Business, confidential, 12 restricted and trade secret. 13 Q. Was Delta 1 and 2 classified ever as 14 restricted or confidential? 15 A. I recall them to be restricted projects, yes 16 -- or, excuse me, very confidential projects. 17 Which level of classification we had on them at the 18 time, I don't recall. 19 Q. As a part of the research in the Delta 20 projects, were ignition temperatures -- tobacco 21 ignition temperatures the subject of any research? 22 A. I recall looking at the tobacco ignition 23 temperatures as part of some of this general 24 physics of the system, yes. 25 Q. Did Delta result in the -- in the formation or MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 58 1 formulation of a product? 2 MR. CRAMPTON: Product on the market? 3 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Yeah, product first, and 4 then product on the market, second? 5 A. What's a product, please? 6 Q. Something that can be sold to the public. 7 A. I don't think we carried it far enough to be 8 able to say that it could be sold to the public. 9 Q. Was subjective testing ever done? 10 A. On? 11 Q. On Delta. 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. It got to the prototypical form, though, 14 correct? 15 A. What's a prototypical form? 16 Q. Where items are manufactured in a -- within 17 certain parameters which are predetermined. 18 A. I'm not sure I can really say that we got that 19 far. 20 Q. Did Delta ever result in a test vehicle that 21 -- through which tobacco could be burned at 22 temperatures under 620 degrees Fahrenheit? 23 A. I don't think so. 24 Q. Is -- or was the Delta project related to 25 Project Beta or Project Sigma? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 59 1 A. Would you separate those questions, please? 2 Q. Yes. Was Project Delta related in any way to 3 Project Beta? 4 A. What do you mean "related in any way"? 5 Q. I'll have to let the word "related" have its 6 ordinary meaning to you because I don't know how to 7 define another way. 8 A. Since I don't know what you mean by related, I 9 don't know the answer. 10 MR. GRISHAM: Exhibit 2, please. 11 (Whidby Exhibit No. 2 was 12 marked for identification.) 13 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Did Mr. Lanzillotti work on 14 Delta? 15 A. Yes, sir, Mr. Lanzillotti did. 16 Q. Sir? 17 A. Yes, he did. 18 Q. Did he also work on Beta or Sigma? 19 A. I recall Mr. Lanzillotti working on Sigma, 20 about Beta I don't recall. 21 Q. How about Mr. Lowsey (phonetics), did he work 22 on either Beta or Sigma? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Did Project Delta involve any research with 25 tobacco fillers? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 60 1 MR. CRAMPTON: Which project? 2 MR. GRISHAM: Delta 1 or 2. 3 A. The word "filler," what do we mean by that? 4 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) It's my understanding that 5 additives can be made to tobacco, such as aluminum, 6 for instance; other items that are not tobacco, but 7 they can form part of the -- part of the tobacco, 8 the rod of the cigarette? 9 A. I understand that some work was done with 10 tobacco fillers. 11 Q. Did any of that work result in a product -- 12 well, I won't use the term product. Did it result 13 in the manufacture of a cigarette that had lower 14 burning levels, temperature levels? 15 A. Not that I can recall. 16 Q. Did any of the additives or fillers result in 17 cigarettes intended to self-extinguish? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. I want to hand you what's been marked as 20 Exhibit 2 to your deposition. I'm going to ask 21 that after you've reviewed that you answer a few 22 questions for me about it. 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. Do you recognize that document? 25 A. No, I do not. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 61 1 Q. You've never seen it before? 2 A. I don't recall ever seeing it. 3 Q. Can I see it again? And if you need to look 4 at it in the course of my questions, I'll hand it 5 back to you. 6 Do you know Frank Watson? 7 A. Yes, I know Frank Watson. 8 Q. What is his position -- let me start over. 9 What was his position with Philip Morris U.S.A. in 10 January of 1980? 11 A. I'm not sure. 12 Q. Do you know what his position with Philip 13 Morris U.S.A. has been subsequently? 14 A. Not exactly. 15 Q. Okay. Do you have a general idea? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What is your general understanding? 18 A. Frank has held various positions of increasing 19 responsibility, I guess, over the years. 20 Q. What is his position today; do you know? 21 A. Do I know his position today? I think he's a 22 director. 23 Q. Do you know who Mr. Lanzillotti is? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Back in 1980, what was his position with MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 62 1 Philip Morris? 2 A. I don't know exactly. 3 Q. Did you work with him on any project? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What projects have you worked on with him? 6 A. I recall working with Mr. Lanzillotti on Delta 7 and Sigma. I can't recall whether he was working 8 on Beta or not. 9 Q. Has he worked on Project Tomorrow? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you recall a data handling system being 12 developed or implemented to handle the data 13 emanating from Project Delta? 14 A. I don't recall that. 15 Q. Do you recall the -- as a part of the research 16 done in Project Delta, the storage or plotting of 17 gas chromatographic spectra? 18 A. I don't recall that. 19 Q. Do you use that sort of data or have you used 20 that sort of data in other research you've done? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. How would it be used in your research? 23 A. Gas chromatographic data is used in a very 24 large number of ways--principally to either 25 characterize or quantify constituents of materials. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 63 1 Q. Can that sort of information be used to 2 evaluate burn characteristics of a material? 3 A. Yes, it probably can. 4 Q. Did the Phase 1 of the Delta project contain 5 -- deal with a cigarette investigation containing 6 iron oxide carbonate or a device that was made from 7 iron oxide carbonate? 8 A. Not to my knowledge. 9 Q. Did it deal with the creation of a device that 10 had a heat-generated flavor chamber? 11 A. I don't recall. I don't think so. 12 Q. Did the research surrounding the second phase 13 of Delta investigate the use of an electric heating 14 element in the flavor chamber? 15 A. I don't think so. 16 Q. What was Project Sigma? 17 A. Project Sigma's goal was to develop a 18 Delta-type cigarette with substantially reduced CO, 19 carbon monoxide. 20 Q. During what years was Project Delta ongoing? 21 Back to Delta. 22 A. I really don't recall, I'm sorry. 23 Q. Do you recall whether -- what years Project 24 Sigma was ongoing? 25 A. No, sir, I don't. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 64 1 Q. Did Sigma involve research that was different 2 or apart from what Delta had involved? 3 A. It was different than what Delta -- somewhat 4 different than Delta. 5 Q. What was the difference between Project Delta 6 and what was hoped to achieve in Project Sigma? 7 A. Project Sigma hoped to achieve a reduced 8 carbon monoxide heat source. I did say Sigma, 9 didn't I? 10 MR. CRAMPTON: Yes. 11 A. Yeah, that's right. 12 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) I thought you did. That's 13 what I understood. 14 Were both Sigma and Delta investigations 15 into altering the delivery of the cigarette? 16 A. I don't think so, no. 17 Q. Sigma was, though, or at least a component of 18 delivery was the subject of the investigation? 19 A. Not that I recall. 20 Q. Was there any research data generated or any 21 conclusions reached through the Sigma project 22 work -- 23 A. I'm sorry, could we go back to the previous 24 question? 25 Q. Sure. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 65 1 A. Would you try that one more time? 2 Q. Okay. Did Sigma deal with the topic or the 3 componentry of cigarette delivery? 4 A. As far as CO goes, yes. 5 Q. Only as far as CO, though? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Did any of the research generated -- 8 A. I'm sorry, as far as CO goes, yes. There may 9 have been other components that Sigma also looked 10 at. 11 Q. Okay. Did any of the Sigma research or 12 experimentation or the conclusions reached 13 therefrom form any basis for data that was reviewed 14 in connection with ignition propensity? 15 A. Not that I'm aware of, no, sir. 16 Q. What was the scope of Beta? What was its 17 purpose? 18 MR. CRAMPTON: I just want to interpose 19 an objection with respect to Beta. Beta is an 20 ongoing highly trade secret project. I think 21 you're entitled to ask some general questions about 22 it to get an idea about what it is. 23 But I -- if it gets into too much detail, 24 too much forward looking, planning, anything like 25 that, I'm going to instruct the witness not to MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 66 1 answer because it's not relevant -- the current 2 product development things would not be relevant. 3 And they're a highly trade secret which would 4 outweigh any potential relevance at all. 5 So I mean, you can go ahead, but at some 6 point there will be a stop on Beta if you get into 7 too highly a trade secret area, all right. 8 MR. GRISHAM: Okay. 9 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Can you tell me what Beta is 10 about? 11 A. Yes, sir. Beta is -- can I contrast it with, 12 say, Sigma and Delta? 13 Q. Sure. However you can best explain it to me. 14 A. Sigma and Delta was -- the original objective, 15 as we said earlier, was to come up with a way of 16 generating smoke without burning tobacco, too much 17 tobacco. But we used a carbon heat source with 18 Delta and we used an iron carbide heat source with 19 Sigma to reduce the CO. 20 The concept with Beta is to use an electric 21 source so you don't have to burn anything, and you 22 use electrical heaters to heat the tobacco and 23 generate smoke that way. That's the general 24 concept of Beta. So it's evolutionary. 25 Q. Got you. Through the--evolution's a good MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 67 1 word--of Delta and Sigma and Beta and the research 2 that was ongoing, was consideration given by you or 3 anyone at Philip Morris that you're aware of to the 4 potential benefit that these devices might have to 5 ignition propensity? 6 A. In general terms, a product or a potential 7 product like Beta which does not have a coal is 8 most likely not going to be a problem when it comes 9 to causing fires by carelessly handled cigarettes. 10 Q. Was that something that you or anyone in your 11 presence at Philip Morris ever discussed as a 12 possible benefit to this line -- evolutionary line 13 of research? 14 A. It was talked about, but it's not -- I mean, 15 it's just an obvious thing. It's not something you 16 really need to have great discussions about. 17 Q. I understand. Lawyers, though, have to ask 18 all these questions about even the obvious. 19 Under what circumstance was the benefit of 20 -- potential benefit of fire safety discussed in 21 terms of -- 22 A. I don't recall. 23 Q. -- these projects? And as Counsel mentioned, 24 I believe Beta is an ongoing project, correct? 25 A. Yes, sir. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 68 1 Q. Are Sigma and Delta ongoing? 2 A. No. 3 Q. When was -- 4 A. They're not ongoing. 5 Q. When was Beta begun? 6 A. I don't recall it, the exact time, or the 7 time. 8 Q. Was it within the last five years? 9 A. I believe so, yes. 10 Q. Within the last three years? 11 A. No. It's longer than three years. 12 Q. Longer than three, but within five probably? 13 A. It's more than five. How much more than five, 14 I can't recall. 15 Q. Fair enough. Was Beta ongoing while Project 16 Hamlet was ongoing? 17 A. Not that I recall. 18 Q. Did you ever work on Project Hamlet? 19 A. No, sir, I did not. 20 Q. Have you ever reviewed documentation dealing 21 with Project Hamlet? 22 MR. CRAMPTON: Outside of in 23 preparation for a deposition with counsel. 24 A. I've looked at various reports. 25 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Did you look at those MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 69 1 reports in conjunction with work that you were 2 doing or hoped to do with respect to Project 3 Tomorrow? 4 A. I don't recall any detail review of the Hamlet 5 documents. 6 Q. Do you recall why you reviewed the Hamlet 7 documents? 8 A. I've -- I've been a manager at Philip Morris 9 and a scientist at Philip Morris for a number of 10 years, and in the general course of doing business, 11 there's a lot of documents that I read. 12 Q. What is Project Tomorrow? 13 A. The goal of Project Tomorrow is to reduce the 14 number of fires from carelessly handled cigarettes, 15 reduce the number of fires caused from carelessly 16 handling cigarettes. 17 Q. How does that differ from the project goal of 18 Hamlet, if you know? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. When was Project Tomorrow implemented? 21 A. To my knowledge, Project Tomorrow was 22 implemented about 1987. 23 Q. At whose request was Tomorrow implemented? 24 A. I don't know who was the initiator of 25 Tomorrow. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 70 1 Q. Were you involved with Project Tomorrow from 2 its inception? 3 A. As far as I know. 4 Q. What was your beginning responsibility or job 5 title, probably would be more appropriate? 6 A. I was the manager of physical research 7 division. 8 Q. Was Project Tomorrow subsumed within or under 9 the umbrella of R&D? 10 A. Project Tomorrow was within R&D. 11 Q. Was it under the umbrella of the research 12 department or the development department? 13 A. It was responsibilities that spanned both 14 departments. 15 Q. Were you under the research department? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Who worked on Tomorrow with the development 18 department? 19 A. At the inception, when -- when are you talking 20 about? 21 Q. The inception of Tomorrow. 22 A. I'm having a hard time. I don't recall who 23 was the responsible person then. 24 Q. Who was the responsible person over both 25 research and development in 1987 when Tomorrow MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 71 1 began? 2 A. Dr. Jim Charles. 3 Q. I'm sorry? 4 A. Dr. Jim Charles was responsible for Tomorrow. 5 Q. Is he still with the company? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Is he living? 8 A. Yes, sir, as far as I know he is. 9 Q. Is he retired, or did he go to some other job? 10 A. He's retired. 11 Q. Do you know where he resides? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Where? 14 A. Wicomico Church, Virginia, as far as I know. 15 Q. Do you have a written contract with Philip 16 Morris? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. You don't know whether or not your employment 19 is governed by a written contract or not? 20 A. I don't think so. 21 Q. Do you -- 22 A. Well, that's a difficult question. I have 23 signed a non-compete agreement with Philip Morris. 24 But whether that's a contract for employment, I 25 mean, I -- I'm unclear, okay. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 72 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. That's the reason I answered I don't know. 3 Q. I understand. 4 MR. CRAMPTON: It's also a question of 5 relevance. 6 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Did any personnel involved 7 with Project Hamlet work on Project Tomorrow? 8 A. Can we define what worked with -- "worked on" 9 meant. 10 Q. Well, that's a hard one. 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. And I want you to be able to answer and feel 13 comfortable answering, so I'll do the best I can. 14 But in my mind "worked on or worked with" means 15 sharing of work. It means sharing responsibilities 16 or tasks with reference to a project, or perhaps 17 memoing one another on research that's being done. 18 It could be really broad, and that's how I intended 19 in its broadest sense? 20 A. In its broadest sense, people from Hamlet 21 shared information with people on Tomorrow. And so 22 in its broadest sense, yes. 23 Q. Beyond sharing information, though, task 24 forces from Hamlet didn't just fall over into the 25 next category of project and begin working on MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 73 1 Tomorrow? 2 MR. CRAMPTON: Object to the form. 3 A. All the people working on Hamlet didn't go to 4 work on Tomorrow. 5 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Did any of the people go to 6 work on Tomorrow? 7 A. I don't know the answer to that question 8 because I don't know. 9 Q. At any time in the past, has Project Tomorrow 10 had an identifiable, distinct location? 11 A. Not that I know of. 12 Q. Is Project Tomorrow research conducted in the 13 R&D complex? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Does Tomorrow have any portion of any 16 laboratory dedicated to its testing and research? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. CRAMPTON: I'm sorry, did you ask a 19 portion of a lab? 20 MR. GRISHAM: A laboratory or any 21 portion of a laboratory. 22 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Is it the same laboratory or 23 a portion of the laboratory that Hamlet research 24 had been undertaken in? 25 A. I don't know. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 74 1 Q. Are the results of Tomorrow research, 2 including data-gathering assembly--the reports 3 resulting from data assembly--maintained on any 4 electronic storage system, including computer 5 disks, tape, drive or other means of electronic 6 storage? 7 A. Some may be. 8 Q. What form of electronic storage does that -- 9 are they stored on or in? 10 A. Probably all the ones you just mentioned. 11 Q. Are there any of those means of storage that 12 are word searchable by key word? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Who would be the person who would have 15 knowledge about that particular topic? 16 A. I could acquire that knowledge. 17 Q. How would you go about doing it? 18 A. I'd talk to the people working on Tomorrow and 19 find out whether or not they have any key word 20 searchable documents like that. 21 Q. At Philip Morris U.S.A., particularly in your 22 management area, do the people who work for you 23 have individual computer stations? 24 A. Some do. 25 Q. Are those connected to some mainframe or are MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 75 1 they specific to the individual and person? 2 A. Some are connected. 3 Q. And some are personal computers? 4 A. There may be some that are not connected. 5 Q. In terms of the hierarchy of the Tomorrow 6 project, you're the manager. Who comes next in 7 hierarchy in terms of responsibility or leadership 8 or decision-making or any of those combinations of 9 things? 10 MR. CRAMPTON: Object to form. 11 A. I'm sorry, would you repeat the question? 12 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) I'm trying to speed things 13 up best I can. Who comes under you in terms of 14 authority on Project Tomorrow? 15 A. A number of people. 16 Q. Okay. Can you name them for me? 17 A. Dr. Bill Dwyer, Dr. Francis Shoe (phonetics), 18 Mr. Tyrone Murray. 19 Q. Any others? 20 A. Directly? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. No, I don't think so. 23 Q. Approximately how many persons are involved in 24 work on the Tomorrow project today? 25 A. I'd say less than 60, more than 40 probably. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 76 1 Q. Has that same -- 2 A. And that's -- it's a variable, flexible 3 situation. 4 Q. That's what I was going to ask you. Has that 5 number between 40 to 60 remained fairly constant 6 within that range since Tomorrow began in 1987? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Give me an idea from 1987 forward, typically, 9 the range of human resources devoted to the 10 project. 11 A. It's a very difficult question. It's grown 12 over the years from 1987 forward. I don't think 13 it's ever been fewer than, say, 10 or 15, and 14 probably not many more than what we have right now. 15 Q. From 1987 to the present, have you had any 16 other responsibilities in your work with Philip 17 Morris other than the management of the Tomorrow 18 project? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Approximately what percentage of your time 21 would you estimate from 1987 to the present that 22 you've committed to the Project Tomorrow versus 23 those other areas of work? 24 A. Just a grand -- grand average, huh? 25 Q. Yeah. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 77 1 A. Probably on the order of 50 percent over that 2 period of time, I would guess. I mean, that's a 3 raw guess. 4 Q. With respect to the people that have worked on 5 the project for you, we've estimated -- or you've 6 estimated for me no fewer than 10 or 15 and maybe 7 up through today 40 to 60. Are those persons who 8 are dedicated to this project solely, or are they 9 people like yourself that may offer a percentage of 10 their time to this project and a percent to others? 11 A. There are people who are totally dedicated to 12 this project--technicians, for example--and then 13 there's other professionals who may have some 14 responsibilities, and then it depends in other 15 areas. 16 Q. Who followed Mr. Jim Charles in the -- he was 17 the person you reported to in 1987, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Who followed him in that role? 20 A. I don't think anybody followed him in that 21 role. 22 Q. When did he retire? 23 A. I don't recall exactly. Four or five years 24 ago. 25 Q. Who did you begin to report to with respect to MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 78 1 Project Tomorrow after Jim Charles retired? 2 A. I believe I reported to Mr. Bill Kuhn. 3 Q. How do you spell his last name? 4 A. K-u-h-n. 5 MR. CRAMPTON: You know, I just want to 6 throw something in. It may be that -- I don't know 7 this, but it may be that Dr. Whidby took over the 8 role that Charles was playing with respect to 9 Project Tomorrow without taking the title. So 10 that's -- that may be a little bit of a 11 miscommunication. 12 MR. GRISHAM: All right. I'll move 13 right to that. 14 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Dr. Whidby, when Mr. Charles 15 retired, did you assume the responsibility for 16 Tomorrow that he had -- he had enjoyed before his 17 retirement? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. But you didn't necessarily change the title 20 that you -- of your employment with Philip Morris, 21 correct? 22 A. That's right, yes, sir. 23 Q. So you maintained your status as a manager, 24 but you didn't have Mr. Charles' position over 25 you. You really consumed -- MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 79 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. -- that position? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. Who did you report to then that had been above 5 Mr. Charles? 6 A. Dr. Kenneth Houghton. 7 Q. Can you spell that name? 8 A. H-o-u-g-h-t-o-n. 9 Q. Is he still in the position of being the 10 person you report to on Tomorrow issues? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. What is his title with the company? Is he a 13 director? 14 A. Vice-president, senior vice-president of 15 research and development. 16 Q. When Project Tomorrow ensued in 1987, what was 17 the initial focus of the research? 18 A. Initial focus in 1987 was to determine ways to 19 reduce the mass burn rate of the cigarette. 20 Q. Is mass burn rate sometimes referred to simply 21 as M.B.R. in your research and reporting of the 22 results? 23 A. It could be referred to as M.B.R. 24 Q. Why was mass burn rate something that was 25 primarily or initially focused on in the research MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 80 1 to reduce the number of fires caused from 2 carelessly handled cigarette products? 3 A. At that time the focus was on mass burn rate 4 because it was felt that reducing the mass burn 5 rate was the right direction to carry the products 6 or to do the research in. 7 Q. Were you involved in the formulation of that 8 focus? 9 A. Yes, to some extent. 10 Q. What is mass burn rate? 11 A. The amount of tobacco burned per unit time. 12 Q. In 1987 was the mass burn rate something that 13 could be altered with respect to the cigarette? 14 A. Yes. I mean, you can always -- yes. 15 Q. What are the ways that one would alter mass 16 burn rate? 17 A. There are many ways to alter mass burn rate. 18 Q. Tell me as many as you can think of sitting 19 here, offhand, today. 20 A. One would be to reduce the circumference of a 21 cigarette. Another one might be to change the 22 paper to reduce the permeability of the paper. 23 Q. Okay. Can you think of any others offhand? 24 Would tobacco density be something? 25 A. In general, tobacco density doesn't reduce the MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 81 1 mass burn rate. 2 Q. Would paper additives or tobacco additives be 3 another aspect of burn rate reduction? 4 A. Take paper itself, various parameters 5 associated with the paper can be used to change the 6 way the cigarette burns, yes. 7 Q. And at least in the initial phases of the 8 project in 1987, you and others with you on the 9 project felt like reducing the mass burn rate might 10 have a positive effect on fire reduction? 11 A. I can't say that. 12 Q. Did you think that reducing the mass burn rate 13 was the most plausible place to begin in your 14 research in hopes of reducing fires caused from 15 cigarettes? 16 A. It was the area that we felt that we could 17 start a research on. 18 Q. Did you start with that area because you 19 thought that offered the most promise in achieving 20 your goal? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And in embarking on that particular path, did 23 you or any of the other folks involved with Project 24 Tomorrow rely upon the research that had been 25 undertaken in Project Hamlet? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 82 1 A. Yes, some of the research in Project Hamlet. 2 Q. In terms of conducting the particular 3 research, did Project Tomorrow in 1987 use test 4 protocols that were the same or very similar to 5 what the California standards were for burn 6 testing? 7 A. We used some of the parameters in the 8 California standard test, as I recall. 9 Q. Okay. Describe for me what sort of burn tests 10 were done during the initial phases of the project 11 when you were hoping to reduce the mass burn rate 12 and see how that responded. 13 A. Very little, if any, mass -- I mean, burning 14 tests were done. That was the reason we were 15 concentrating on mass burn rate. 16 Mass burn rates are relatively easy things 17 to measure. Measuring whether or not the substrate 18 is ignited or not is a very difficult thing to do, 19 time consuming. So we felt it was expedient to 20 look at mass burn rate rather than look at the 21 California testing, for example. Although we did 22 -- we looked at those things just to have an idea 23 of what was going on with some of the testing 24 protocols. 25 Q. Was any mass burn rate testing done on MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 83 1 commercial brand Philip Morris products? 2 A. The mass burn rate is