2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 3 For The Plaintiff: 4 Waltman & Associates 3833 South Texas Avenue, Ste. 150 5 Bryan, Texas 77802 6 By: LYNN GRISHAM 7 For The Defendant, Philip Morris Companies, 8 Inc., et al: 9 Shook, Hardy & Bacon One Kansas City Place 10 1200 Main Street Kansas City, Missouri 64105 11 By: WILLIAM CRAMPTON 12 Also By: JOHN FRASER Also By: ROBERT NORTHRIP 13 14 For The Defendant, Philip Morris Companies, Inc., et al: 15 Carrington, Coleman, Sloman 16 & Blumenthal 200 Crescent Court, Ste. 1500 17 Dallas, Texas 75201 18 By: MICHAEL BRADEN 19 For The Defendant, Shelly Moore: 20 St. Clair & Markey 21 Summit Office Park 1200 Summit Avenue, Suite 620 22 Fort Worth, Texas 76102-4409 23 By: EDWARD MARKEY 24 Also Present: Reed Greer, Videographer 25 3 1 On the 13th day of February, 1996, at 2 the offices of St. Clair & Markey, Summit Office 3 Park, 1200 Summit Avenue, Conference Room, Fort 4 Worth, Tarrant County, Texas, SABINO VASQUEZ 5 appeared before me, Tamara J. Braun, a Certified 6 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for 7 Travis County, Texas and the State of Texas; and 8 being by me first duly sworn or affirmed, 9 testified by his oral/videotaped deposition, 10 pursuant to the notice of counsel for the 11 respective parties as hereinafter set forth. 12 13 - - - - - - 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 I N D E X 2 Page 3 Examination By Mr. Grisham - - - - - - - 5 4 Examination By Mr. Crampton - - - - - - - 51 5 Examination By Mr. Markey - - - - - - - 187 6 Further Examination By Mr. Grisham - - - 196 7 8 9 10 11 E X H I B I T I N D E X 12 Page 13 Vasquez Exhibit No. 1 - - - - - - - - - 10 Vasquez Exhibit No. 2 - - - - - - - - - 36 14 Vasquez Exhibit Nos. 3 - 4 - - - - - - - 37 Vasquez Exhibit Nos. 5 - 26 - - - - - - 44 15 Vasquez Exhibit No. 27 - - - - - - - - - 60 Vasquez Exhibit Nos. 28 - 29 - - - - - - 120 16 Vasquez Exhibit No. 30 - - - - - - - - - 148 17 18 19 Reporter's Certificate 205 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. GRISHAM: 3 Q. Would you state your full name for the 4 record, please? 5 A. Sabino M. Vasquez. 6 Q. Mr. Vasquez, my name is Lynn Grisham. 7 I'm here today representing the plaintiff in a 8 lawsuit that's been filed against Shelly Moore 9 and several Philip Morris entities. 10 I'll be asking you some questions, as 11 will the other lawyers, concerning an event that 12 took place on April 4th, 1992, and specifically 13 a fire whereby a little child that I represent 14 was injured. Do you recall that incident? 15 A. Yes, I do. 16 Q. What is your age, sir? 17 A. 44. 18 Q. How are you employed? 19 A. I'm employed with the Fort Worth Fire 20 Department. 21 Q. What is your title or position, or rank 22 may be an appropriate word? 23 A. Well, at the present time I'm assigned 24 to the fire investigations, the arson and bomb 25 squad. 6 1 Q. How long have you held that position? 2 A. This July is going to be seven years. 3 Q. How long have you worked for the Fort 4 Worth Fire Department? 5 A. '81, that would be -- since March '81 6 will be 15 years -- correction, close to 15 7 years next month. 8 Q. Could you give me a little bit of a 9 background on what positions or titles you've 10 held with the Fort Worth Fire Department since 11 you began in March of 1981? 12 A. At the beginning, I went to the fire 13 academy. I went as a fire trainee for a year on 14 probation. I was fully -- you know, placed as a 15 fully firefighter on -- I do not recall -- '84 I 16 was -- I took my first promotional exam. I was 17 moved to as a driver. 18 From there, I obtained my Fire 19 Technology degree. And after that, I moved to 20 -- in '89, I moved into the fire 21 investigations. I went through the police 22 academy. I became a certified police officer. 23 1990, I went to Red Stone Arsenal -- I 24 mean, Red Stone -- it's the F.B.I. bomb school. 25 I became a certified bomb technician. And then 7 1 in the same year, 1989, I became a certified 2 fire investigator. 3 Q. Okay. How does one become a certified 4 fire investigator? 5 A. You have to comply with TCLEOSE rules, 6 120 -- I think now it's 128 hours on cause and 7 origin and go through the fire dynamics and just 8 -- they have a curriculum where -- guidelines 9 to go by. 10 Q. And you completed that curriculum and, 11 in fact, became certified in that area? 12 A. To be a fire investigator, yes. That 13 was '89. Right after I became a peace officer, 14 that's when I went to the arson school. 15 Q. You mentioned that you had received a 16 Fire Technology degree. What is that course of 17 study? 18 A. That has to do and deals in relation 19 with fire dynamics, fire behavior and building 20 constructions, fire management. It's different 21 subjects. It's an Associate degree, that's the 22 one I have. 23 Q. Do you have to recertify in any of the 24 areas that you've told me about? 25 A. As fire investigator, we should have 20 8 1 hours to be recertified every year. And as a 2 peace officer, another 20 hours every year; as 3 bomb technician, we train once a month; as a 4 fire investigator, we train once a month, 8 5 hours. 6 Q. And you have continued to maintain your 7 certifications in each of those areas since you 8 became certified? 9 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Have you received any awards or 11 commendations at the Fort Worth Fire Department? 12 A. Well, I was nominated the firefighter 13 of the Year, but the fire -- I was the Fire 14 Prevention -- or Fire Investigator of the Year. 15 Q. For what year? 16 A. I think it was '93. Because last year 17 was '95 -- it was '93 or '94. I forgot -- they 18 gave me some kind of deal--a plaque that goes on 19 the wall--but I have a bunch of that. 20 Q. All right. Before going to work for 21 the Fort Worth Fire Department, where did you 22 work? 23 A. A long time ago. That was -- I was a 24 maintenance for a cotton mill that's located in 25 South Fort Worth. Back then, it was Traders, 9 1 T-r-a-d-e-r-s, Oil Mill Company. I was a 2 maintenance person. I used to repair all the 3 equipment around the company. 4 Q. Did you grow up in and around the Fort 5 Worth area? 6 A. No. I grew up in Mexico. 7 Q. And when did you come to the United 8 States? 9 A. Back in '73. 10 Q. I want to talk with you a little bit, 11 Mr. Vasquez, about the incident that I've 12 described to you earlier that occurred on April 13 4th of 1992. 14 But before we go into it, I'd like to 15 ask what you brought here with you today by way 16 of a file. 17 A. Some -- just the fire reports, police 18 report and copies of statements. 19 Q. I want to ask the court reporter to 20 mark this set of documents as Exhibit 1 to your 21 deposition. And I believe that contains many of 22 the pages out of your file. But I'd like for 23 you to look at this exhibit and confirm that 24 each one of these pages is contained in your 25 file. 10 1 (Vasquez Exhibit No. 1 was 2 marked for identification.) 3 (Discussion off the record.) 4 A. Yes. Some of this is from the fire 5 department and some from crime scene and 6 Detective Carpenter. 7 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) What I'd like to do 8 is get an idea from you which one of those or 9 which of those documents are contained in your 10 file with the Fort Worth Fire Department? 11 A. I have all my file, everything except 12 this copy (indicating) that's -- for whatever 13 the reason, I don't have it. You know, it's 14 just a police report. It's a police report. 15 Q. I'm going to ask that we take that out 16 of the exhibit, if that's all right. Can we 17 take that out, Mr. Vasquez? 18 A. (Witness complies). 19 Q. With that deletion, everything that you 20 have there in front of you marked as Exhibit A 21 are documents that you have in your fire 22 department file? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Who maintains the files that Exhibit A 25 are contained in at the fire department? 11 1 A. We do at our office. 2 Q. So you would actually maintain your own 3 file on the subject? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Do you maintain the file that Exhibit A 6 is contained in in the usual course of your 7 business there at the fire department; in other 8 words, is that how you usually and customarily 9 do things? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And did you maintain this particular 12 file that Exhibit A is contained in as a part of 13 your ordinary, regular business duties at the 14 fire department? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Are the documents marked as Exhibit A 17 duplicates of the ones that are in your file? 18 A. Yes, they appear to be. 19 Q. I'm going to ask some questions about 20 the April 4th, 1992, incident, and please feel 21 free to refer to your file or Exhibit A, if you 22 need to. 23 First of all, I would like to know how 24 is it that you came to be called to the event 25 where Shannon Moore was injured? 12 1 A. The fire department dispatcher received 2 the call. They sent the units up there to a 3 vehicle fire. Then after they arrived, the 4 incident commander, Chief Miller, they learned 5 they had a fire victim. So at that time is when 6 I, as on-duty investigator, be called on the 7 scene. That's the way I was notified. 8 Q. Were you notified by radio? 9 A. Both ways. They paged me on the pager, 10 plus on the radio they called me and said, they 11 need you at this location. 12 Q. Do you recall what time the -- or do 13 the records reflect what time the call came into 14 the Fort Worth Fire Department that a fire was 15 ongoing? 16 A. 18:29, 6:29. 17 Q. When did the fire department arrive at 18 the scene? 19 A. I will have to look at that one. This 20 one is not clear. Let me check on mine. I 21 thought I saw it. 22 Like I said, the first call was 23 received by the fire dispatcher at 18:29. The 24 first truck was dispatched at just 18:29 and 52, 25 the next number. The first truck on the scene 13 1 gets at 18:40. 2 Q. Does the dispatch record there from 3 your files tell you what the address was that 4 the trucks were dispatched to? 5 A. Yes. It shows 3458 LeBow. 6 Q. When you were paged and called to come 7 to this scene, were you given any information 8 about what -- what you might expect or what you 9 were being called for? 10 A. Yes. The radio -- I mean, you know, 11 the dispatcher say, they have a fire. They said 12 a burn victim. 13 Q. Back in April of 1992, did the fire 14 department have a policy--or was it a personal 15 policy of yours--that when there was a fire 16 victim, an investigator would be sent out? 17 A. That's always been the policy. 18 Q. About when did you arrive at the scene? 19 A. 18:51. 20 Q. And did you arrive by a fire department 21 car? 22 A. We have a Suburban, a big truck 23 Suburban, and that's what I keep all my 24 equipment in and that's the one I arrive on. 25 Q. When you arrived at the scene, can you 14 1 tell me, generally, what you observed, what you 2 saw? 3 A. I saw at least three or four fire 4 trucks, police officers on the street, 5 helicopter on one of the open fields--Care 6 Flight helicopter--still with the propeller 7 running. And I saw the ambulance personnel 8 working on the little baby. 9 Q. What did you do first to initiate your 10 investigation? 11 A. I report to the Chief, the incident 12 commander. I went to him. 13 Q. That was Mr. Miller? 14 A. Mr. Miller. He briefed me with the 15 details, then I met with a police officer in 16 charge and he more or less gave me the same 17 details. 18 At that point, I just -- you know, I 19 approached the vehicle, make visual observation 20 of the vehicle and then I asked around, you 21 know, some questions to the -- to the relatives 22 that were there. 23 Q. Starting with that first conversation 24 with Mr. Miller, the incident commander, what 25 sort of details did he give you about what had 15 1 happened? 2 A. He said first truck arriving says we 3 found an infant -- infant either in front of the 4 car or just outside the car already or in the 5 car -- I cannot recall exactly what he said. He 6 says, but we got the car engulfed in flames 7 inside and the fire victim. 8 So the first -- the initial procedure 9 was do first aid -- render the first aid. And 10 then he says -- and, you know, and then I have 11 to call for more backup, more personnel to 12 assist on this. 13 And they said, we extinguish the fire, 14 we put out the fire. We did not disturb 15 anything. Everything was still intact. So I 16 said, did anybody -- my question is, did anybody 17 saw how it happened -- I mean, what occur over 18 here? 19 And he says, the kid was sleeping on 20 the backseat and mama went inside the house. 21 And when they came out, the car was on fire -- 22 you know, in those words, more or less. 23 Q. All right. Did the police officer give 24 you pretty much the same details? 25 A. The same, yes. 16 1 Q. So following that, you approached the 2 vehicle, made a visual inspection, and then 3 begin to question the relatives that were at the 4 scene? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Can you tell me, to the best of your 7 recollection, who you talked to and what they 8 told you? 9 A. The mother was the first one--the 10 mother of the child. And I asked her, I said, 11 how you discover the fire? I mean, what were 12 you doing? And she went -- told me -- says, 13 parked the car, got some food, came inside the 14 house and prepared the food to serve it to mama 15 and daddy. 16 And I asked a young girl, I says, keep 17 you eye on the car because I've got my baby in 18 the car. And the next thing I know the car is 19 on -- oh, my sister is yelling, screaming, the 20 car is on fire. I ran outside. And she went to 21 the wrong side of the car trying to open the car 22 and then she went around the car and got the 23 baby out. 24 MR. CRAMPTON: I want to just 25 object. I'm not sure whether that answer was 17 1 responsive to the question. And I want to ask, 2 if you would, to try to keep these clear who's 3 talking to who. Because in the answer there, I 4 didn't know who said what. I think it was just 5 that the question was a little broad. 6 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah, and certainly 7 what I intended it to be. 8 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) You were talking to 9 Shelly Moore at that time, and these facts were 10 relayed to you by Shelly Moore? 11 A. That's correct. 12 MR. CRAMPTON: Was Shelly Moore 13 the -- I'm sorry, I started to -- 14 MR. GRISHAM: The mother. 15 MR. CRAMPTON: Was Shelly Moore 16 the young girl that you were talking about? 17 THE WITNESS: No. She was in her 18 30's. 19 MR. CRAMPTON: Okay. I'm sorry. 20 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) That's all right. 21 That was the mother of the child? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you talk to other relatives then to 24 try to confirm that or get other details? 25 A. The young girl. I cannot recall -- no, 18 1 I cannot recall the name. 2 Q. It was a young girl that you were told 3 was a member of the family of the home? 4 A. Member of the family, the one that was 5 supposed to be looking after the car, you know, 6 just watching outside for the baby. 7 Q. What did that young girl relate to you 8 happened? 9 A. If I recall correctly, she said, I went 10 to the back of the house. I was there, looked 11 through the window, everything okay. She did -- 12 she was, you know, busy doing whatever she was 13 doing. And then she said, I look again and I 14 saw smoke coming out of the car. And that's 15 when she ran and told mama the car is on fire. 16 Q. Did you talk with any other relatives? 17 A. It was another man, Bud -- well, excuse 18 me, I think that was the nickname they gave me. 19 And I asked him, what did you do? He says, 20 well, I came out and tried to put out the fire 21 -- you know, trying to help them to get the kid 22 out of the car. But he was in the kitchen -- I 23 mean, you know, in the living room area with 24 everybody else. 25 Q. Did you talk with any other relatives 19 1 or bystanders? 2 A. It was another person there, too, and I 3 just asked him if he saw anything, and he pretty 4 much said the same thing, you know. 5 Q. After you completed that portion of 6 your investigation, that is, talking to the 7 people at the scene, did you move to the next 8 step of investigating the cause? 9 A. Yes, that's correct. Then I moved to 10 the vehicle. 11 Q. What -- can you relate to us what you 12 did in that stage of your investigation? 13 A. I started with visual -- I mean, you 14 know, just looking, observing the interior of 15 the vehicle. First of all, you know, I start 16 from the outside. I look at the exterior of the 17 vehicle. 18 Indicators indicate the fire came from 19 the passenger area, so I moved to the -- no, one 20 step before that. I did not recall if the hood 21 of the vehicle was partially open or open all 22 the way, but I remember looking at the engine. 23 I looked at the engine compartment. 24 Then I moved to the -- to the interior 25 of the vehicle. I look at the fire spread, the 20 1 damage, and I keep looking at the contents, you 2 know, where it was on the seat. Everything 3 keeps leading me to the -- to the seat -- to the 4 front passenger seat. And from there I just 5 look and observe the things. I saw how the fire 6 is spread. I observe how -- I mean, you know, 7 the combustibles nearby. 8 At that time I said, well, you know, I 9 stopped -- I'm not sure if I -- yeah, I think I 10 took pictures at this time. I took pictures. 11 So at this time before moving anything, I moved 12 to the police officer. I go up to the police 13 officer, I said, I think it would be nice if 14 crime scene gets -- you know, come over here. 15 I'm my own -- I do my own crime scene 16 on most every fire. But this one being a fire 17 victim and an infant, you know, I just said, 18 okay, I need somebody else to look it over, you 19 know, see what I'm missing. 20 Q. Did he comply and get a crime scene 21 officer? 22 A. Yes, yes. We receive a crime scene 23 officer. 24 Q. What is the next step in the 25 investigation that you took? 21 1 A. The next step was, I get back to the 2 relatives again. What -- you know, the 3 questions, you know, what you had on the seat. 4 I mean, you know, what was on this area, what 5 was here, what you had, what were you doing, you 6 know, these questions. At that time, well, 7 Sharon -- 8 Q. Shelly? 9 A. Shelly -- the mother, she says, I had 10 work done on the car. If I recall correctly, 11 alternator -- no, no, correction. Starter or 12 alternator, some kind of -- one of those things 13 on the engine because it was not running 14 properly, so we -- I had work done. So -- and 15 she said, I think that's what caused the fire. 16 So I just move along. I went to the 17 man, Bud -- I go to him, I said, what did you 18 notice, what was right here; and he says, this 19 is an electrical fire. And I said, why you say 20 that it's an electrical fire? 21 He said, well, that car is always 22 missing and we had work done. And I said, well, 23 if the work was done on the engine, why you 24 think the fire start over here? He said, it 25 started on the dashboard. And I said, no, it 22 1 not started on the dashboard. I said, it 2 started over here on the seat. 3 So at that time, mama is there -- I 4 mean, Sharon. 5 Q. Shelly. 6 A. Shelly, she's there. And she said, 7 well, on the seat I just had a sack with 8 groceries, a package with Pampers, my 9 cigarettes, my lighter -- you know, she goes 10 naming all those things. 11 So I said, well, did you smoke? And 12 she said, yes, I do smoke, but I never smoke 13 inside the car when I have the baby with me. 14 And at that time I observe her smoking. I said, 15 well, like right now, you realize you are 16 smoking, you know, things like that. So she 17 said, maybe I was smoking. 18 I said, well, do you remember what you 19 do with the cigarette? And she says -- I can't 20 recall what she said -- either she toss it out 21 or she did something with it. So I said, 22 there's a possibility that you place it over 23 here by the seat then -- on the seat? She said 24 -- and that's when she got a little irate with 25 me, because that question was improper. She 23 1 thought it was improper question for me to imply 2 that she -- without knowing, she just discarded 3 the cigarette. 4 Q. Okay. And did you continue asking 5 similar questions as a part of your 6 investigation to her and other members? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Can you tell us the remainder of the 9 conversations, to the best of your recollection? 10 A. At that time, crime scene gets there -- 11 the officer gets there. So we go over and I 12 say, well, look what I got. So I go and I said, 13 I think the fire started on the seat because I 14 eliminate all the possibility of electrical 15 fire, you know. There was no connection between 16 the dashboard and on the seat. 17 So I explain her what I had and I said, 18 I would like to take sample of here, here. And 19 at that time, they get on the car -- I mean, the 20 whole family gets on the vehicle. 21 Q. Gets physically on top of it? 22 A. No, no. I mean, you know, they sit 23 inside the vehicle. They fixing to go to Dallas 24 to visit the kid that just left on the Care 25 Flight. 24 1 Q. They got in another vehicle? 2 A. They got in another vehicle that was, 3 you know, parked in the front yard. So I said, 4 ma'am, before -- you know, before you leave, I 5 need to ask you some more questions. 6 And Bud -- well, that's -- I can go 7 look at his name -- he says, she don't have to 8 answer no more questions. She already told 9 you. She already let you know everything that 10 you need to know, and we're out of here. 11 And so I said, well -- you know, I keep 12 insisting -- well, ma'am, there's a possibility 13 that you forgot the cigarette, and she was 14 crying at that time. And the male, Bud, says, 15 she don't -- listen, she don't have to answer 16 you no more questions. 17 Q. Did they leave then, following that? 18 A. Well, no. She -- I said, well, either 19 -- she's not going nowhere. Either she talk to 20 me right here or we go downtown--I put it that 21 way. And so I said, ma'am, step out. So she 22 got out of the car. 23 I said, there's a possibility, and she 24 said, no, I don't think so. I said, ma'am, 25 that's the only way, that's the only ignition 25 1 source that could have. That's the only thing 2 because the front seat has the bag with the 3 groceries, Pampers, some more combustibles 4 around. On the back it was tennis shoes, blue 5 jeans, mop, you know. 6 So I said, there's a possibility that's 7 what happened because, look, the fire starts 8 here, it spreads -- you know, I went through the 9 sequence to explain her how the fire spread to 10 the backseat. 11 Q. What did she say in response to that? 12 A. She said maybe. She said, I don't 13 know, maybe I was smoking. I said, okay. You 14 know, go on and see your baby -- I mean, go to 15 Dallas. And, you know, I go back and we look at 16 the car again. This is the only -- that's the 17 only possibility, that's the -- something, the 18 discarded cigarette that she could have -- 19 somehow it could be left on the seat. 20 Q. And that's the conclusion you arrived 21 at on the scene within an hour after the event? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What was the next step in the 24 investigation? 25 A. After photographing the vehicle, 26 1 collecting the evidence and we got a wrecker out 2 there to pull the car. Because at that time, 3 the police says, well, we need to keep custody 4 of the vehicle for a few days, and I said, okay, 5 it's all yours. 6 Q. Did you actually take the samples from 7 the vehicle yourself? 8 A. No. The officer on the crime scene, 9 they took the samples. 10 Q. Were you able to suggest to the officer 11 what you wanted sampled? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And what did you direct that you wanted 14 sampled? 15 A. One of the samples was right next to 16 where I thought it was the origin--the point of 17 origin, right there. I said, give me a sample 18 right there. And, you know, it was three or 19 four samples; and then on the other side of the 20 seat and, I think, one on the back -- on the 21 rear passenger seat. 22 Q. Were each of the samples that you asked 23 for all seating material samples? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Why were you interested in seeing or 27 1 having the seat sampled? 2 A. Well, on this particular fire, you 3 know, just the possibility of something else 4 that could be flammable liquid in it, you know. 5 Just a possibility, the window being open, you 6 know, the car -- you know, it's just one of 7 those feels, just trying to cover 8 everything--the possibility. 9 Because if mama was -- the mother was 10 kind of adamant that she never smokes inside the 11 car and everything, just something to -- you 12 know, to prevent something that -- there could 13 be somebody could have set that fire, I guess. 14 You know, to prove that. 15 Q. And we've got some canisters with 16 samples here in the room today, and I want to 17 ask you some questions about them later. But 18 before we go into that, I'd just like to ask, 19 were the samples placed in, what I call, paint 20 can type canisters there at the scene? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And that was done by the police officer 23 that headed up the crime scene? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And the police officer then took those 28 1 samples with them? 2 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection; 3 leading. 4 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) What happened to the 5 samples after they were placed in the canister 6 -- canisters? 7 A. Let me see, did -- let me check. I 8 think -- let me see, because I saw a -- I'm not 9 recalling if I took it myself on my vehicle or 10 the police officer took it with her. And then 11 Lieutenant Young got those samples, and he -- 12 he's the one that took those to the crime lab. 13 Q. And who is Lieutenant Young? 14 A. He's another investigator from my 15 office. 16 Q. What crime lab did he take the samples 17 to? 18 A. The Fort Worth Police Department crime 19 lab. 20 Q. And did you or someone else tell them 21 what tests you wanted run? 22 A. Yes. Just check for accelerant or any 23 flammable liquid. 24 Q. And is the Fort Worth crime lab the lab 25 that you or any other fire investigator with the 29 1 fire department would send samples to have these 2 type tests run under any other circumstance? 3 A. Yes, yes. That's the only lab that we 4 use. 5 Q. Have you sent samples to that lab 6 before? 7 A. All the time, yes. 8 Q. Do you typically in the course of your 9 job rely upon the results of that laboratory and 10 reaching conclusions in your investigations and 11 helping you and assisting you in your 12 investigations in other matters? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Did you receive a report back from the 15 crime lab? 16 A. I don't remember seeing one, but they 17 keep a copy. Once I need it, I just call and 18 give them the numbers and they provide a copy. 19 Q. Did someone at the crime lab tell you 20 what the results of the tests were? 21 A. When I requested, yes. 22 Q. When did you -- approximately when did 23 you request that information? 24 A. Personally I don't think I did it, but 25 I don't know if somebody else from the office 30 1 did it. Because at that time, I was working 24 2 hours and off 72. So the next 24 hours I put 3 all the paperwork and it goes to the office. We 4 have a personnel in the office that works eight 5 hours a day. They are the ones that do the 6 follow-up investigations. 7 Q. At any rate, somehow you found out what 8 the results were at the lab, didn't you? 9 A. I think so, yes. 10 Q. And what did you learn from the lab's 11 testing of the materials? 12 A. If I remember correctly, no accelerants 13 found. 14 Q. At that point, was your investigation 15 concluded in terms of this fire? 16 A. Yes. At that point, we concluded it 17 was a discarded cigarette. 18 Q. I want to go over the conclusions. And 19 many of them you've already -- you've told me 20 through the course of describing your 21 investigation. 22 And I'm going to turn first to what is 23 described in the records as a Fort Worth Fire 24 Department Incident Report. And I believe there 25 are actually two incident reports in the file; 31 1 is that correct? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. One is made by you? 4 A. Yes. The investigator report, that 5 would be mine. 6 Q. And the other one is made by incident 7 in command? 8 A. Incident Commander Chief Miller. 9 Q. Why are there two reports? Is that 10 protocol, he makes a report and you make a 11 report; or is there some other reason? 12 A. No. That's the protocol. That's the 13 rule. He's the incident commander. Every time 14 there's a fire, he makes his own report. And 15 every time that they require or they request a 16 fire investigator, I'm the one that makes 17 another report. And anyway, my report supersede 18 his. 19 Q. Okay. If I understood your testimony 20 correctly, the one conclusion that you made was 21 that the origin of the fire in the Moore vehicle 22 was the front seat area, correct? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Did you arrive at a conclusion as to 25 what portion of the seat the origin was and what 32 1 specific locale? 2 A. On the passenger's side just kind of 3 between the middle. On the passenger's side 4 just kind of in the middle of the seat. 5 Q. Okay. Was it closer to the front or 6 closer to the back of the seat where the seat 7 back meets the lower portion of the seat? 8 A. Closer to the front. 9 Q. How close was -- were the other 10 combustibles--you mentioned some Pampers, and I 11 thought you said something else, Pampers and -- 12 A. And a brown bag, like, grocery sack. 13 Q. How close were those combustible 14 materials to the point of origin? 15 A. Right on the point of origin. 16 Q. You mentioned that Ms. Moore had said 17 she took some food into the house? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Was this brown sack with some groceries 20 other food parts or was -- 21 A. If I remember correctly, maybe I notice 22 like a hot dog, like a hot dog. 23 Q. So it may have been a fast-food type of 24 sack? 25 A. Yes, sir; yes, sir. 33 1 Q. How close was -- were the Pampers to 2 the point of origin? 3 A. Right next to that. 4 Q. Within centimeters or inches, or can 5 you give me any better or closer estimate? 6 A. Oh, that would be hard. Just right -- 7 right to, you know, standing -- I mean, sitting 8 on top of the seat right next to it. 9 Q. It was right next to the point of 10 origin? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you reach a conclusion as to which 13 direction the fire spread following its 14 origination? 15 A. It spread right there on the seat, and 16 then up and towards the back part of the seat -- 17 you know, through the back part and then it 18 rolled -- you know, just go back and then rolls 19 back and behind the backseat. 20 Q. The flames -- or did flames actually 21 spread from the seat cushion--the lower seat 22 cushion--in your opinion, to the backseat 23 cushion? 24 A. Yes. The flames spread up at the same 25 time they spread onto the backseat. And once 34 1 they got into the ceiling, they just rolled back 2 to the back of the seat. 3 Q. You've mentioned the discussions with 4 the family about electrical problems to the 5 car. And I took it from what you told us, you 6 did not believe that this fire was caused by an 7 electrical problem? 8 A. No, sir. I don't think it was 9 electrical problem at that time. 10 Q. What about your investigation ruled 11 that out, in your mind? 12 A. Once the fire indicators -- once I 13 observe and look and I could not connect any, 14 you know, any electrical, you know, spark, arc, 15 going on to this-- you know, on the seat, on the 16 cushion. 17 Q. And you looked under the hood to see if 18 there was any evidence there? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Did you look at around the instrument 21 panel or dashboard to see if there was any 22 evidence there? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And you were satisfied that that was 25 not where the fire started? 35 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. I'm going to have to ask you to educate 3 me a little bit here. In looking at burn 4 patterns on the inside of a vehicle or anywhere 5 else, do white spots on metal indicate there is 6 greater heat there or less heat, or does that 7 provide an indicator one way or the other? 8 A. Can you repeat your question? 9 Q. Sure. That was a convoluted question. 10 What is the significance of what appear to be 11 white spots on metal where a fire has been? 12 A. It be -- 13 Q. Maybe I can rephrase it a little bit 14 better. If the paint on, say, for instance, a 15 motor vehicle like this car, if the paint is 16 black after a fire, have you noticed, either in 17 this investigation or others, white spots in the 18 metal -- 19 A. Well -- 20 Q. -- where the paint is burned away? 21 A. -- I guess you're referring to the 22 metal part, right? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. After they burn, right? 25 Q. Correct. 36 1 A. Let's say, the metal is going to 2 indicate the intensity of the heat--the 3 temperature of the heat. Let's say, like you 4 said, if it's a black spot, that means it got 5 hot, but not hot to the point like if you 6 observe or see whitish stuff. That means right 7 there it was -- the heat was more intense right 8 there and it burned with more intensity right 9 there. 10 (Vasquez Exhibit No. 2 was 11 marked for identification.) 12 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) I want to hand you, 13 Mr. Vasquez, what's been marked as Exhibit 2 to 14 your deposition, and ask you if you can identify 15 the subject of the photograph? 16 MR. CRAMPTON: May I take a look 17 at it real quick? You did refer to the first 18 one as "A." 19 MR. GRISHAM: Did I? 20 MR. CRAMPTON: But -- was it 1? 21 COURT REPORTER: It was 1. 22 A. This appears to be the vehicle, but I 23 cannot recall -- I cannot get a picture if it's 24 the top portion of the vehicle. 25 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) I believe that 37 1 represents -- I can show you some other 2 photographs that might help orient you. Just 3 give me a moment to pull those out. 4 (Vasquez Exhibit Nos. 3 and 4 5 were marked for identification.) 6 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) I'll hand you what's 7 been marked as Exhibits 3 and 4, which you may 8 want to use to help orient you, possibly. 9 A. Is that me? 10 Q. Sir? 11 A. Is that me -- a picture of myself? 12 Q. I don't know. Do you recognize in any 13 of the three exhibits, 2, 3, or 4, the vehicle 14 as being the vehicle that you investigated this 15 fire? 16 A. Yeah. This is the vehicle, yes. 17 Q. Maybe I can circumvent my long, 18 convoluted questions and ask this. Did you 19 notice anything about the burn pattern or the 20 heat intensity patterns in the metal -- 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. -- that led you to conclude that the 23 point of origin was in the front seat? 24 A. Yeah. You asked me a question on the 25 metal part, right? 38 1 Q. Yes. 2 A. And I answered you with a "yes." Where 3 the flame is going to impinge for the longest, 4 the metal is going to get hotter. The hotter it 5 gets with intensity -- intensity of the fire and 6 temperature, yes, it's going -- it's going to be 7 kind of bluish and the paint or the finish -- 8 the coat, the finish, is going to be whitish, 9 like an ash, just like a powder. 10 And that's one of the indicators that 11 you look at as a fire investigator, right there, 12 is the concentration of your... 13 Q. And did you note that sort of evidence 14 with the vehicle that you looked at, which is 15 represented by Exhibits 2, 3, and 4? 16 A. Yes, yes. 17 Q. Where did you see that sort of high 18 heat intensity pattern? 19 A. Right -- like on the passenger seat--on 20 the front passenger seat--right there just above 21 on the ceiling. 22 Q. Were you able to or did you consider 23 the possibility that there was an exhaust 24 problem with the car that caused the fire? 25 A. I checked on that -- 39 1 Q. How did you -- 2 A. -- and I eliminate that. 3 Q. How did you check on it and eliminate 4 it? 5 A. When the wrecker truck lift the 6 vehicle, I took pictures from underneath and 7 look at the bottom of -- you know, the bottom of 8 the vehicle. 9 Q. And you didn't see anything there that 10 led you to believe the fire started with the 11 exhaust system? 12 A. I didn't see anything. 13 Q. Another conclusion I believe that you 14 indicated earlier in your testimony that you 15 arrived at, and which appears on your incident 16 report, is that the form of heat that provided 17 the ignition for this fire was a discarded 18 cigarette. Did I hear you correctly? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And is that your opinion? 21 A. Taking in consideration the fire 22 indicators, taking in consideration the 23 witnesses -- I mean, the -- well, witnesses 24 statements and just by looking at the fire, 25 that's the only ignition source it could be in 40 1 that seat. 2 Q. Did you see any evidence of cigarettes 3 or a lighter in the front seat of the car? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What did -- to the best you can recall, 6 what did you see? 7 A. The remains of a cigarette lighters and 8 remains of a cigarette pack. 9 Q. Do you recall whether or not those were 10 taken as samples? 11 A. Yes, they were taken as a sample. 12 Q. What sort of container were they placed 13 in? 14 A. On the sample that was taken from right 15 there--from the point of origin--in one of those 16 cans. I saw them being put in the can. 17 Q. Do you know where those samples are 18 today? In other words -- 19 A. The last time I knew, they were in the 20 can at the crime lab is the last time. 21 Q. And that was the piece of lighter -- 22 A. Whatever -- yes, the remains. 23 Q. -- and the piece of the cigarette pack? 24 A. Yes, the remains. 25 Q. Could you tell what brand the 41 1 cigarettes were from the package, or do you 2 recall? 3 A. I don't recall. I don't recall. Off 4 the record or whatever, red -- for some reason 5 red comes to my picture, looking -- but it was 6 too destroyed, swelled to tell what it -- I 7 mean, you know, what color was it. 8 Q. Do you recall how many evidence 9 canisters there were at the scene that were -- 10 evidence was placed in? 11 A. Between five and seven -- five. 12 Q. And those went with the police officer? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And after that, you never had custody 15 of them? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did you consider the concept that the 18 lighter may have been the source of the fire? 19 A. I look at -- you know, I thought about 20 it, but I don't think this one was the case. 21 Q. Did you understand what the child -- 22 what the child was doing at the time that the 23 fire -- the ignition of the fire occurred? Were 24 you given that information through your 25 investigation? 42 1 A. Yes. The kid should be strapped onto 2 the baby carrier, strapped onto it sleeping. 3 Q. Do you recall whether she was in the 4 front or backseat? 5 A. It was behind the driver -- on the rear 6 seat, behind the driver's side. 7 Q. In your experience in investigating 8 fires, what do cigarette lighters usually do 9 when they are exposed to the heat of open flame? 10 A. Burst. 11 Q. With regard to the Pampers and the sack 12 in the front seat that you told me about, were 13 those items fully consumed by the fire, or can 14 you give me an idea to what degree they were 15 burned? 16 A. The Pampers were consumed like half, 17 like just one side was burnt, but it was remains 18 where you can tell what it was. 19 Q. What about the sack, was it almost 100 20 percent gone or was it still -- 21 A. It would be fair to say almost 100 22 percent gone. 23 Q. Were there any other clothings or 24 beddings or any other materials in the front 25 seat that caught fire as well? 43 1 A. There was combustible remains of 2 something else. I couldn't -- I could not make 3 it out what it was. 4 Q. Do you know whether the windows of the 5 automobile were open or closed at the time the 6 ignition occurred through your investigation? 7 A. If I recall correctly, the driver's 8 side was either open or partially open -- I 9 mean, the window. 10 Q. Do you recall about the other three? 11 A. I don't recall the other three, because 12 I observe broken glass. 13 Q. In Incident Commander Miller's report 14 for form of material ignited, he notes, 15 "car seats." And in your notation on your 16 incident report, you noted "multiple." Can you 17 tell me what -- if you know, what he was 18 referring to by "car seats," and what you were 19 referring to by "multiple"? 20 A. I'm referring to -- on my report I was 21 referring to multiple because, you know, it 22 started right there where there was like a hot 23 dog, the brown sack and the plastic--right there 24 in that area. His, I could not make a comment 25 on that. 44 1 Q. All right. If you don't know, that's 2 fine. 3 A. Because I don't know why he put seat. 4 Q. Do you know if the fire or if the heat 5 source and ignition started with the seat and 6 spread to the other materials, or if the heat 7 caused the other materials to combust first? Or 8 do you have an opinion one way or the other? 9 A. The indicator indicated that 10 combustibles, the ones that caught on fire and 11 then just spread onto the -- into the cushion. 12 Q. I'm going to mark a series of 13 photographs now, so it will take us a couple of 14 moments. And I'm going to ask you to look at 15 those. 16 MR. GRISHAM: Could we go off the 17 record and get some coffee while she's marking 18 those? 19 (Vasquez Exhibit Nos. 5 - 26 were 20 marked for identification.) 21 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Vasquez, I want 22 to take a few moments with you. We've presented 23 some photographs to you, which are marked Nos. 5 24 through 26. Would you go through those and tell 25 us which ones you can identify and, briefly, 45 1 what they they represent. And if you can't 2 identify one, that's all right, too. 3 A. I'm looking at one what appears to be 4 the -- depicting the front seat of the vehicle. 5 Q. Is that Exhibit 5? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Is that how it appeared at or about the 8 time that you investigated this incident? 9 A. That's correct. No. 6 just depicts the 10 full -- the full vehicle and the fire scene in 11 front of the -- the location where it was 12 located at. 13 No. 7 appears to be the -- depicting 14 the driver's side and the backseat. 15 No. 8 is going to be on the passenger 16 side, the rear door. 17 No. 9 is going to be the passenger seat 18 and also the floor mat. And, you know, you can 19 tell about the dashboard also. 20 No. 10 is going to depict the engine 21 compartment. 22 No. 11 depicts some of the officers on 23 the scene--police officers on the scene with 24 me. I don't recall them. 25 This one depicts again the front seat. 46 1 Q. Is that No. 12? 2 A. No. 12, yes, sir. 3 No. 13 is going to depict the passenger 4 door. That would be the right-hand side and 5 portion of the seat. 6 No. 14 is going to depict the right 7 rear seat. 8 No. 15, that's going to be the 9 left-hand side, depicting also a baby carrier. 10 16 goes back to the right-hand side on 11 the rear side showing some -- the mop handle or 12 blue jeans. It was several combustibles on the 13 back, different types. 14 This one, I think that it tried to 15 depict the license plate. 16 Q. Is that No. 17? 17 A. No. 17. 17 and 18 is a repetition -- 18 or looks more like the same angle. 19 Q. 18 is another attempt to depict the 20 license plate of the vehicle? 21 A. Probably. 19, on this one I cannot 22 make it -- which one is it. It's the mop 23 handle, but I just can't recall what it was. 24 Q. You can recall -- you can identify that 25 as the mop handle, but you can't tell me exactly 47 1 where it's located in the car? 2 A. Yeah. If it's on the right-hand side 3 or left side. This one is, again, the rear 4 seat. 5 Q. No. 20? 6 A. No. 20. 21 depicts the baby carrier 7 and the protected area. 8 The driver's side. 9 Q. No. 22? 10 A. No. 22. This one looks more like a 11 repetition of the -- where the car was parked in 12 driveway and the residence. 13 Q. And that's intended to show the 14 location of the car in the driveway? 15 A. Yeah, the location, yes. 23, that was 16 23. 17 24 is depicting the rear seat. 18 25 is just another angle depicting the 19 position of the vehicle. 20 26 is the front seat. 21 Q. Do the photographs marked as Exhibits 5 22 through 26 fairly and accurately display how the 23 vehicle in the scene looked on the evening that 24 you were there conducting your investigation? 25 A. That's correct. 48 1 Q. Did you take the photographs, or did 2 someone in your presence take the photographs? 3 A. I took some of the photographs, and I 4 think the crime scene person took some too. 5 Q. From the police department? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Officer Vasquez, approximately how many 8 fire scenes have you investigated as a fire 9 scene investigator? 10 A. Hundreds. Up to now? 11 Q. Yes, sir. 12 A. Is your question up to now? 13 Q. Up to now. 14 A. It would be fair to say over 1,000. 15 Q. As of April 1992, you had been a 16 certified fire investigator for three years. At 17 that time, approximately how many scenes had you 18 investigated? 19 A. It would be hard to say. Hundreds. 20 It's hard to speculate on that. 21 Q. It would be over 100 in your 22 estimation? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. Does the City of Fort Worth keep any 25 sort of records in the fire department or 49 1 statistical data concerning the causes of the 2 fires in the City? 3 And the reason I ask that is I noted 4 that the incident report has some -- a numbering 5 system by the different blocks, and I was just 6 wondering if the City uses this information 7 statistically. 8 A. I work for the fire prevention. I 9 think that, yes, they have the data on the 10 computer and they can -- they can, you know, 11 arrange it to the point where they can say, 12 okay, well, this is where -- this is the cause 13 for -- let's say, just for the sake of saying, 14 kitchen fires--cooking--and they can say the 15 percentage. They can go in and look at, you 16 know, and make a study on that. 17 Q. In your own personal experience--and 18 not necessarily the information on the incident 19 reports--but your -- just relying upon your own 20 personal experience, how often would you say 21 that you are involved in investigating a fire 22 where a cigarette is the cause or suspected 23 cause? 24 A. It's quite often, but it would be hard 25 for me to give you percentage numbers. 50 1 Q. Could you give me an estimate based 2 upon how many a year or month? 3 A. It's a lot of them. I mean, it's 4 plenty out there, but it would be hard to say 5 the number because, you know, like I said, it 6 can be done -- it can be arranged to the point 7 where we can come out to a close figure. But at 8 this time, for me, it's just -- it's familiar to 9 me. It's something I encounter often. 10 Q. Okay. Have you investigated or been 11 associated with the investigation of any fires 12 this year, and we're in February of 1996, that a 13 cigarette was the suspected cause? 14 A. It's only two months into the year. 15 Q. Right. 16 A. Some of my co-workers mention something 17 like that, but it would be hard -- I can't 18 recall one right now right on top of my head. 19 Q. How many other fire investigators are 20 there in your department? 21 A. Eight more, including my supervisor. 22 Q. What is your supervisor's name? 23 A. Fernando Gonzales. 24 MR. GRISHAM: I'll pass the 25 witness. Thank you. 51 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. CRAMPTON: 3 Q. Inspector, my name is Bill Crampton. I 4 introduced myself earlier. I represent Philip 5 Morris, Incorporated, in the case brought by 6 Ms. Shipman against Philip Morris, Incorporated, 7 and some other entities with Philip Morris 8 names, and I'd like to ask you a few questions 9 also. 10 Mr. Grisham asked you a few questions 11 about your training related to fire 12 investigation. And I had a few additional 13 questions I wanted to ask, which I'll begin 14 now. 15 You said that you took a course to 16 become trained as a fire investigator? 17 A. It's -- when I took it, it was a course 18 curriculum put out by the State that includes 19 120 hours and fire related. 20 Q. Is it taught at a school somewhere or 21 is -- 22 A. The one that I went to, it was offered 23 by the Garland Fire Department. 24 Q. I'm sorry? 25 A. By the Garland Fire Department. It's 52 1 different locations where -- you know, it's 2 different locations where they offer, you know, 3 through the year around the State. But also in 4 1995--that be last year--I was honored to go to 5 the National Fire Academy and -- 6 Q. Where is that? 7 A. That's going to be in Emmitsburg, 8 Maryland. That's the National Fire Academy, and 9 I went to their fire investigation 10 certification. 11 Q. When did you go to Emmitsburg, Maryland 12 for that training? 13 A. That would be in November 1995. 14 Q. You also said that you do some 15 continuing education, 20 hours a month -- or 20 16 hours a year of monthly classes. Where are 17 those taught? 18 A. Different locations. At the Fire 19 Academy--Fort Worth Fire Academy. Different 20 locations within the metroplex where our 21 association meets, or ourselves--our 22 division--we get together and have guest 23 speakers like the district attorney, another 24 fire investigator, different topics. 25 Q. In the course of your training, did you 53 1 have any specific classes or specific training 2 related to car fires? 3 A. When I became certified in '89, I took 4 -- you know, that was one of the topics. Then 5 when I was going through the fire investigations 6 school--I have an Associate in fire 7 investigations also--we covered some of those 8 courses. 9 Q. Are there any textbooks or publications 10 that you rely upon for investigating car fires? 11 A. I have a few in our library. 12 Q. Can you recall the names of them? 13 A. Not on top of my head. 14 Q. Do you make reference or do you refer 15 to those textbooks or journals on car fires when 16 you are conducting an investigation on a car 17 fire? 18 A. Once in a while I review, you know, 19 something that I see out of the ordinary; 20 something that, you know, it looks particular in 21 that case, yes. 22 Q. Did you consult one of those 23 publications with respect to this fire? 24 A. Not originally. Probably when they 25 call me the first time. That would be, when, 54 1 last year? When they notified me that something 2 was coming out of this case. 3 Q. Who notified you? 4 A. I don't recall. I have to go back and 5 check the paperwork. 6 Q. Did someone from the fire department 7 contact you and tell you that there was 8 something coming out of this case, or was it 9 someone from the outside? 10 A. It was somebody from the outside, plus 11 the deputy chief from the fire department. 12 Q. When did the deputy chief contact you? 13 A. He's no longer with us. He retired. 14 Q. What was his name? 15 A. Don Peacock. The only date I can see 16 is 10/6, no year. 17 Q. When -- what was his title, Deputy 18 Chief Peacock? 19 A. Yeah, he was the fire marshal. 20 Q. When he contacted you, what did he tell 21 you about the case? 22 A. He wanted to know the origin and cause 23 of the fire, from my determination. And he 24 inquired something about the lighter and the 25 evidence he wanted. But mainly he was more 55 1 interested on the lighter, I think. That's what 2 -- I remember that because I tell him, check 3 with the crime lab. 4 Q. Did he tell you why he was interested 5 in this case? 6 A. If I recall correctly, it's something 7 -- some kind of study or something about 8 cigarette lighters or something to that effect. 9 Q. Do you recall whether that was, say, in 10 the last two years or earlier than that? 11 A. I think it's in the last two years. 12 Q. What did you do to prepare yourself for 13 this deposition today? 14 A. I went over some of the reports. 15 Q. Did you talk with anyone about the 16 deposition? 17 A. To my supervisor. 18 Q. What was the substance of your 19 conversation with your supervisor about this 20 deposition? 21 A. I was talking to him about the incident 22 of the fire, about the -- some of the details, 23 because he just took over the division. The 24 previous supervisor is -- he went back to the 25 fire station. And I was touching base with him, 56 1 this is what I did; this is what they wanted me 2 to do; and this is what I'm going over at this 3 time. 4 Q. Did you meet with anyone else in 5 connection with your preparation for the 6 deposition today? 7 A. No. Other than my guys in the office, 8 no. 9 Q. You didn't talk to any outsiders, 10 anyone, say, attorneys in the case or anyone 11 else? 12 A. No. Other than -- when was it, last -- 13 I don't know, last year. We were in the process 14 of doing something like this and then just got 15 cancelled. 16 Q. Oh, right. All right. The deposition 17 was noticed sometime last year, and then it -- 18 A. Something like that. 19 Q. Do you subscribe to any journals 20 related to fire fighting or fire investigation? 21 A. Personally? 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. Or the office? Personally -- 24 Q. Well, personally, first. 25 A. No, sir. 57 1 Q. Does your office subscribe to any? 2 A. Yes, they do. 3 Q. Which ones? 4 A. The Texas -- I can't recall -- I cannot 5 recall the title. It's white cover with a red 6 and black letter, something of fire 7 investigators. 8 Q. Is it a monthly journal? 9 A. No. I think it's quarterly, like every 10 three or four months. 11 Q. How many investigations of car fires 12 have you conducted since you've been with the 13 Fort Worth Fire Department? 14 A. Wow, it's hundreds. It's too many. 15 Q. Now specifically related to car fires 16 as opposed to structure fires? 17 A. It's too many to mention. I mean, it's 18 over hundreds. I mean, you know, it's just too 19 many. 20 Q. Can you give an estimate of the number 21 or the percentage of car fires that you 22 investigate that are related to careless 23 smoking? 24 A. It's hard for me right now to kind of 25 remember those. 58 1 Q. When you are conducting a fire 2 investigation, do you have a standard procedure 3 or checklist that you follow? 4 A. We have a checklist, but it's -- you 5 know, you do -- so many times you know the 6 procedures already by memory more or less. You 7 know, you go from here -- the steps you have to 8 take to -- 9 Q. Do you have a written checklist of 10 things to look into when you're investigating a 11 fire; is that right? 12 A. It's like an S.O.P., it's just a 13 guideline. 14 Q. Do you have that with you? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Did you follow it when you were 17 conducting the investigation of this fire on 18 April 4th, 1992? 19 A. To the best of my recollection. 20 Q. I take it you were on duty as of the 21 evening of April 4th, 1992, right? 22 A. Yes, I was the on-duty investigator. 23 Q. What hours did you work that day? 24 A. From 7:00 in the morning to 7:00 in the 25 morning next day, 24 hours. 59 1 Q. So when this fire was called in at 2 18 -- 3 A. -- 29. 4 Q. -- 29, how long had you been on duty 5 then? 6 A. Since -- almost 11 hours or so. 7 Q. Did anyone travel with you to the fire 8 scene? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. When you got to the fire scene, were 11 there any police barriers up with the yellow 12 tape or anything around the fire scene? 13 A. I remember -- I recall seeing a yellow 14 tape. 15 Q. Were they up when you arrived? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Had the scene been secured by the 18 police department at that time? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Was the fire still in progress when you 21 arrived? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Do you know when the fire was knocked 24 down or put out? 25 A. No. 60 1 Q. I would like to refer to some fire 2 department records that we received in discovery 3 in this case. And they may be duplicative of 4 Exhibit 1, but what I have is the full set of 5 what we obtained, which is larger than 6 Exhibit 1. So what I'd like to do is mark, as 7 another exhibit, the records that I have. 8 (Vasquez Exhibit No. 27 was 9 marked for identification.) 10 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) I'll hand you what 11 has been marked as Vasquez Exhibit No. 27. Can 12 you identify what that is? I'm not talking 13 about just the first page, which is photocopies 14 of photographs, but I mean, the entire 15 document--the entire set of documents? 16 A. Yes. They appear to be some of the 17 pictures from the fire scene. 18 Q. Anything other than the pictures? 19 A. That one right there. What is that, a 20 fire -- and memos or letters to -- you know, 21 requests. 22 Q. Did these records come from your file, 23 which is here with you today? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Are there any pages in here that did 61 1 not come from your file? 2 A. I saw a memo -- I think -- just to 3 make sure. I think all appear like they came 4 from my file. 5 Q. This may be a harder question. Are 6 there any materials in your file that are not in 7 Exhibit No. 27? 8 A. I think everything is there. 9 Q. Is there anything in this exhibit that 10 you could refer to to identify what fire 11 departments -- fire department units arrived on 12 the scene when during this fire, something that 13 would say who was called when and when they 14 arrived and what they did? 15 A. Yes. If you would go back and check 16 the master list where the dispatch -- the 17 dispatcher, you should be able to tell who got 18 on first and then -- 19 Q. Is this what you're referring to? 20 A. That's it, yes. That's the copy. 21 Q. This exhibit has numbered pages that 22 are stamped along the bottom with a Bates number 23 stamper. And just for identification, this is 24 page No. 50 of the fire department records. 25 Referring to that document, if you need 62 1 to, Inspector Vasquez, what unit arrived on the 2 fire scene first? 3 A. The records shows or indicates the 4 Engine 25 at the same time with the incident 5 commander arrive on the scene -- you know, the 6 first units on the scene. 7 Q. Engine 25, I take it, is a fire engine? 8 A. The fire engine, yes. 9 Q. And what unit arrived after that or the 10 next one after that? 11 A. The next one after that, Quint is 12 another fire unit--that would be the next unit 13 on the scene. 14 Q. What is it called again? 15 A. Quint, Q-u-i-n-t, five functions. 16 Q. Was it Quint No. 9? 17 A. Yes. Did I say No. 9? Quint No. 9. 18 Q. What are the five functions of a Quint? 19 A. Water, ladder, hose, equipment to work, 20 and plus an aerial water tower. 21 Q. And what about the next one? I'm just 22 following along on page 50. 23 A. Yes. The next one would be 18:54, that 24 would be Engine No. 19. 25 Q. When you said 18:54, that's the time it 63 1 arrived? 2 A. The time it arrived on the scene. 3 Q. And the next one? 4 A. That would be the last truck. And then 5 you got the E.M.S. units, that's a supervisor 6 and a truck; utilities, like, a truck with 7 lights and fan, you know, just for lighting. 8 That's utility truck. 9 Q. I see that B.N. 3 appears to -- 10 A. Oh, no, correction. We need to go back 11 and correct that one. Because if 25 and 12 Battalion 4 arrive at 18:40, there's one, Engine 13 12, arrive 18:49 before Quint 9. 14 Q. I see. There's a column on this 15 document which lists the time that each unit 16 arrived on the scene -- 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. -- and it says that E12 arrived at 19 18:49 and E19 at 18:54? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do any of these unit designations refer 22 to you as the fire investigator? 23 A. I'm the one on the last -- on the 24 bottom page. Marshal 99, that's my unit. 25 Q. You arrived at 18:51? 64 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. That's 6:51 p.m.? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. Why was it that so many units were 5 called to this fire? It looks like three 6 engines and several other units. 7 A. It would be hard for me to speculate at 8 this point, but I can say that the first unit -- 9 just from my experience, the first Unit 25 is 10 going to be busy working on the victim. So 11 still you need another unit to support this unit 12 to extinguish the fire. And then you have a 13 helicopter coming, air ambulance, you have Care 14 Flight coming, so you need another unit to land 15 them--to make room to land this helicopter. 16 So that's the reason -- I mean, off the 17 top of my experience, I'm not talking about an 18 incident commander, but that's the way that 19 S.O.P.'s calls for. 20 Q. I think you said the first thing you 21 did when you arrived was look -- 22 A. Look for the man in the white shirt. 23 Q. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Not the first 24 thing you did when you arrived, the first thing 25 you did when you began to conduct your 65 1 investigation was to look under the hood of the 2 car? 3 A. No. Observe the whole picture of the 4 car, just look at the whole picture of the car. 5 And then, by looking at the car, you see from 6 the least damage to the worse. Then you look at 7 this right there, and then at that time -- I do 8 not recall if at that time is when I took some 9 pictures, but then I went inside -- you know, I 10 went and talked to the witnesses. 11 Q. You did at some point, then, look under 12 the hood? 13 A. Yes. I do not recall if the hood was 14 partially open or open, but I remember looking 15 at the hood, you know, just... 16 Q. Did you observe any fire damage inside 17 the engine compartment? 18 A. I do not recall seeing any. 19 Q. Was the battery cable cut? 20 A. Yes. I noticed it being cut, but 21 that's a normal procedure for firefighters to do 22 that. Every vehicle fire they have to cut the 23 wire. 24 Q. Why do they do that? 25 A. Safety precautions. 66 1 Q. What's unsafe about the battery being 2 connected on the car? 3 A. There's wreckers that sometimes the 4 short can cause the battery to explode, plus, 5 you know, it's just normal procedure just to cut 6 the power off the vehicle. 7 Q. If the engine were running and someone 8 cut the cables, would that cause the engine to 9 die? 10 A. That's a tough question for me. 11 Q. Someone had told you that the starter 12 or the alternator had been worked on recently; 13 is that what your testimony was? 14 A. That's -- to the best of my 15 recollection, I heard twice that they -- 16 something to that reference--alternator, 17 starter, something--but they had work on it 18 because it was -- they were having problems with 19 the vehicle. 20 Q. As you sit here now, do you recall 21 whether it was the alternator or the starter 22 that they were talking about? 23 A. It would be hard to remember. I mean, 24 you know, I don't recall. 25 Q. Do you have any notes in your file that 67 1 would help you recall whether it was the 2 alternator or the starter? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Could you tell whether the starter or 5 the alternator had been recently replaced or 6 worked on when you looked at the engine 7 compartment? 8 A. I couldn't tell. I could not tell if 9 it was one. 10 Q. Did you remove anything from under the 11 hood? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. How did you examine the electrical 14 system of the car? 15 A. Visually. The engine area I look for 16 damaged wires, overheated wires. Then I move on 17 to the dash area--look at the dash, look at some 18 of the wires that were, you know, over there. 19 And that's about it. Just trying to see if any 20 of the wires appeared to be damaged by 21 overheated or some of that nature. Just looking 22 at the wires. 23 Q. Did you remove the dashboard to look at 24 the wires behind the dash? 25 A. Oh, no, sir; no, sir. 68 1 Q. Did you physically remove any of the 2 wires from the dash area to inspect that? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. The process that you went through to 5 eliminate the electrical -- the possibility of 6 an electrical fault as the cause of this fire 7 was just by looking at the wires from where you 8 were standing outside the car? 9 A. You look at the -- the fire indicator's 10 going to be there. The fire is -- by reading 11 the fire language -- you read right there. You 12 look at your wires, you look at your damage, you 13 look at -- you connect -- you connect the 14 ignition source, you know, like looking at the 15 possibility of the dash being the one on fire. 16 It should be a different burn pattern coming 17 from there. 18 And then once I could not connect the 19 dash with the seat -- you know, being -- the 20 dash being the first one to catch on fire as the 21 possibility of the seat being the exposure, and 22 then you look at the point of origin. And right 23 there you connect the dash being the exposure. 24 Q. The dashboard was pretty badly burned, 25 wasn't it? 69 1 A. Yes, sir, it was damaged on top. 2 Q. And at least one witness, the one you 3 identified as Bud, had said that the fire 4 started in the dashboard, right? 5 A. He mentioned something to that. 6 Q. Don't you think it would have been a 7 good idea to investigate the wires behind the 8 dashboard to rule that out as a possible cause 9 of the fire? 10 A. After looking and observing and 11 inspecting just the wires right there, I didn't 12 see any fire coming from underneath the dash. 13 Q. What wires was it were that you 14 observed? Sorry, let me reask the question. 15 What wires did you observe in the dash 16 area? 17 A. If I recall correctly, it was a red 18 wire or a black wire like disconnected from any 19 source. It was just right there by the pedals 20 or by the bump on the vehicle near to the 21 carpet. 22 Q. Did you inspect the wires behind the 23 radio? 24 A. Oh, no, sir. 25 Q. Was the radio a factory radio or 70 1 something that had been added on after the 2 car was purchased? 3 A. I do not recall that one. 4 Q. Did you inspect the contents of the 5 glove compartment? 6 A. I didn't do that. 7 Q. Did you inspect the wiring behind the 8 glove compartment? 9 A. I didn't do that. 10 Q. Was there a map light on the dash of 11 this car? 12 A. I don't recall that. 13 Q. You didn't look at any of the wiring 14 behind the dashboard--left or right on the whole 15 dashboard? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Did you examine the fuel system? 18 A. The fuel? 19 Q. Fuel, gasoline. 20 A. On my visual inspection on the engine, 21 I look over when they raised the car. Yes, I 22 look over it. 23 Q. Were the doors of the car open or 24 closed during the fire, or could you tell from 25 your investigation? 71 1 A. The fire indicates that they were 2 closed. 3 Q. Did you observe smoke on the windows of 4 the car? 5 A. What was left of the glass, yes. 6 Q. What color was the smoke on the windows 7 of the car? 8 A. Black. Sort of like soot--black soot. 9 Q. Is there any significance to black soot 10 on the windows of the car? 11 A. In complete combustion the fire was 12 burning extremely at a rage. Or at one point it 13 burned for a little while without oxygen. And 14 once it reached oxygen, then it start flaming 15 again. 16 Heat -- again, to clarify the question, 17 the plastics -- the components of the vehicle 18 made out of plastic is going to release that 19 kind of black soot. 20 Q. Had the roof of the car sagged any 21 during the fire? 22 A. The metal part? 23 Q. Right. 24 A. I do not recall. I mean, you know, at 25 this time I do not recall. It got extremely 72 1 hot, but I don't recall any sagging. 2 Q. You talked about the paint being 3 completely burned on the top of the car in one 4 area. I think I'm describing it right -- it was 5 a question that Mr. Grisham gave you -- paint 6 was burnt completely off the top of the car; is 7 that right? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. And you said the significance of that 10 was that the fire burned longest there, right? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. It isn't necessarily true, though, that 13 that's where the fire -- that the fire started 14 under there; is that right? 15 A. That's an indicator that the base of 16 the fire was right there. 17 Q. Could it be that the fire started 18 somewhere else--someplace where there was fewer 19 combustibles--and then when it spread to the 20 seat area, it burned longer and hotter in the 21 seat area; is that a possible scenario? 22 A. That's a tough question. That's 23 possible, but not in this case. In this case, 24 you have to read the language--the burn 25 pattern--as what it's going to indicate you 73 1 where the point of origin was, and then where it 2 spreads. To answer your question, there's 3 time. So there's possibilities, yes, the 4 ignition source is here, but the amount of 5 combustible -- the fuel load is right here, and 6 it's going to cause that too. 7 Q. It's possible that fire can start in 8 one place, but you get longer and more intense 9 burning in another place? 10 A. That's possible, but not in this case. 11 Q. It is true that in a car, the seat area 12 is -- either in the front or the back would be 13 the area with the most fuel for combustion in 14 the compartment of a car; is that right? 15 A. Can you repeat that question again? 16 Q. Well, thinking about the interior 17 compartment of a car, there's different fuel 18 sources in there. Would you agree that the 19 seats probably provided the most fuel of 20 anything else inside the car compared to, say, 21 the dashboard or the walls, the doors, the 22 ceiling? 23 A. That depends. Sometimes the plastic 24 releases more -- burns hotter than the seat -- 25 the fabric on the seat. 74 1 Q. What about the foam on the seat? 2 A. That's true, too. Once -- it could be, 3 but the foam is -- yeah, you could say yes. 4 Q. Do you know whether the engine in the 5 car was running during the fire? 6 A. To the best of my recollection and 7 information that I gathered on the scene, it was 8 in the off position. It was off. 9 Q. The car was not running when you 10 arrived? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. How is it that you determined that the 13 car was not running when the fire started? 14 A. I didn't see any indicators that could 15 lead me to believe that the car was running. 16 Q. Did anyone tell you whether the car was 17 running? 18 A. Nobody told me the engine was running. 19 The first person--the mother--is the one that 20 says, I just got off, shut it off and got out of 21 the car. 22 Q. She told you that she shut it off? 23 A. (Witness nods head). 24 Q. Do you have any notes in your file that 25 indicate that she told you that? 75 1 A. No, I don't keep notes on that. 2 MR. MARKEY: I'm sorry, I didn't 3 hear that question. 4 MR. CRAMPTON: I asked if there 5 were any notes in the file that showed that the 6 mother had said the car was turned off. 7 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) Can you list for me 8 the items that you saw in the seat--in the front 9 seat area of the car--during your investigation? 10 A. To the best of my recollection, a pack 11 of Pampers--what appears to be Pampers--a brown 12 bag with whatever was left of some items, I 13 cannot recall. And if I recall correctly, what 14 appeared to be a burnt weenie, like a hot dog, 15 and what appears to be swell or damaged by the 16 water, a cigarette pack. What appears to be 17 damaged by the fire the remains of a cigarette 18 lighter. 19 Q. When you say "a cigarette lighter," do 20 you mean a butane lighter? 21 A. What appears to be a butane lighter. 22 Q. Did you know what kind of lighter it 23 was, what brand? 24 A. It would be hard to tell. It was sort 25 of like just the metal part, just the top of the 76 1 thing. 2 Q. And the cigarette pack, do you know 3 what kind of cigarette pack it was, that is, 4 hard pack, soft pack, box? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. But you do recall that it was red? 7 A. Somehow in my mind I picture like 8 something -- a remain of red stuff, but it would 9 be hard to me to speculate. 10 Q. Was it red and white? 11 A. Could be. 12 Q. It was your conclusion that the fire 13 started right there where the paper bag was in 14 the car; is that right? 15 A. On that -- yes, on that area. 16 Q. What was the first item ignited? 17 A. The brown bag. 18 Q. How do you know it was the brown bag? 19 A. Because this is where it was -- the 20 remains that were sitting right there, that was 21 where the point of origin appears to be. 22 Q. Was the seat around where the bag was 23 completely burned out? 24 A. It was not completely burned out. It 25 was burned, but it was just like a little -- how 77 1 can I say that? It was burned -- the fabric was 2 burned and the foam was a little deep seated 3 area right there. 4 Q. And the Pampers were half burned is 5 what you said; is that right? 6 A. Seemed like the Pampers -- if I recall 7 correctly, the Pampers were -- it would be safe 8 to say or fair to say that it was sort of like 9 halfway burned or no more than halfway burned. 10 Q. How hot did the fire get right there at 11 what you identified as the point of origin? 12 A. It got pretty hot. I mean, over 500 13 degrees, right there in that area. 14 Q. Some of the foam was burned; is that 15 right? 16 A. Some of the foam. 17 Q. At what temperature does the foam burn 18 -- does foam burn? 19 A. I could not tell you at this time. 20 Q. Did you see anything else in the front 21 seat of the car? 22 A. It was -- there was more combustibles, 23 but it's hard to tell what it was. 24 Q. Did you observe any matches in the car? 25 A. I do not recall that. 78 1 Q. How is it that you know that the -- 2 that the paper bag would have been the first 3 item ignited as opposed to anything else in the 4 car? 5 A. By looking at the evidence, looking 6 where it was left right there. If something was 7 right there right by the bag and -- the items 8 right next to the hot dog and whatever, right 9 there the paper bag is going to burn faster than 10 the seat. 11 So right there in that area that's -- 12 that's the most flammable stuff at this point 13 unless something fell right there in the area 14 reachable to her and, you know, everything right 15 there. That's right there is where my fire is 16 going to spread right there and the paper bag -- 17 anything made out of paper is the one that's 18 going to burn first. 19 Q. But how do you know that a cigarette 20 came in contact with the paper bag? 21 A. By interviewing her, by looking at the 22 evidence. She smokes and the possibility that 23 she never -- first, the contradiction of the 24 stories well, were you smoking; no, I never 25 smoke when I'm around my kid, except in the car 79 1 -- I mean, more or less in the car I never 2 smoke. 3 So I go -- I said, well, there's a 4 possibility that when you were in the process -- 5 let's say you're coming down the road driving, 6 in the process of -- you're going to approach 7 and make a turn to get into the driveway. At 8 that time you need both hands to steer with, 9 what happened to the cigarette? 10 That's when she looks and says, I don't 11 know, I don't know. I said, there's a 12 possibility that you put it back over here or 13 anything else, and that's when she said, I might 14 have done that. 15 Right there is my -- see, my problem 16 was I could not connect the ignition. I could 17 not find the ignition source at this time. I 18 knew and the fire was telling me exactly where 19 the point of origin was. So the only -- I had 20 -- the only logical explanation was that when 21 she said, I don't know. 22 Q. Nothing about what -- and the person 23 you're talking to when you're talking about 24 "she" told you -- 25 A. The driver. 80 1 Q. -- that's the driver, that's Ms. Moore? 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 Q. She didn't tell you that a cigarette 4 hit against a paper bag there, right? 5 A. No. 6 Q. That's your -- 7 A. That's my determination. 8 Q. -- speculation based on things you saw? 9 A. That's my determination based on my 10 fire burn pattern. 11 Q. Is it fair to say that cause and origin 12 investigation is in part a process of 13 elimination? 14 A. That's what I was doing, trying to 15 eliminate all the electrical sources that came 16 out, all the electrical problems that they point 17 out to me--eliminate all that and then -- 18 Q. What you did is you saw intense 19 burning, longer burning in the front seat of the 20 car in the passenger side, right? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And someone had told you that the case 23 -- that the fire may have started from an 24 electrical short in the dash? 25 A. And that's when I eliminate those 81 1 things. 2 Q. And you eliminated that. But to 3 eliminate that, what you did was you looked at 4 the wiring without actually taking the dash off 5 and looking at any wiring behind there, and you 6 didn't conduct any testing on the wires, right? 7 A. That's correct. But by reading the 8 fire, you can tell the fire was from the 9 exterior of the dashboard, not from the interior 10 -- coming out of the interior of the dashboard. 11 Q. What about the wires underneath the 12 dashboard? There were wires hanging down -- 13 A. It was clean. The carpet was clean 14 right there. There was no connection between 15 this portion over here -- the carpet is clean, 16 you can see this. Even the color, brownish, 17 redish maroon, whatever color, you can see the 18 color, and there's no damage. 19 So you cannot connect any arcing from 20 here to the top of the ceiling. 21 Q. Did something about the burn pattern 22 suggest to you that the fires came from outside 23 of the dashboard and not from inside the 24 dashboard? 25 A. All indicators at the point when I was 82 1 conducting my interview -- my investigation 2 indicates that the dash was an exposure on the 3 exterior. Not an interior fire, exterior fire. 4 Q. Do you have any photographs that would 5 show those burn patterns? 6 A. I don't know if there's -- 7 Q. We'll go into some photographs in a 8 little bit. I'll just pull out the ones that 9 we've got. 10 Do you -- is there any reason to 11 believe that if this fire were caused by a 12 cigarette, that it could have been ignited -- 13 that the first thing ignited could have been 14 something other than the paper bag? 15 A. If it could be -- like you said, it 16 could be anything else, It got to be right there 17 at the base of the paper bag anyway. Right 18 there in the point. It could not be anyplace 19 else, because the fire travels up. It don't 20 travels downwards. 21 Q. If the fire burned longest and hottest 22 at the point of the paper bag, how is it that 23 the paper survived the fire? 24 A. Just one of those things. 25 Q. At what temperature does paper burn? 83 1 A. It would be hard for me to tell you at 2 this time. 3 Q. I think just from the Ray Bradbury 4 (phonetics) book, it's Fahrenheit 451. Does 5 that sound right to you? 6 A. I would have to look into the reference 7 books. 8 Q. But at any rate, in your opinion, it 9 got hotter than 500 degrees at the point of that 10 seat during the fire? 11 A. At one point it got hotter, yes. 12 Q. Let's talk about the collection of the 13 evidence. Who actually did collect the evidence 14 at this fire? 15 A. The officer from the crime scene. 16 Q. Who was that? 17 A. I would have to look at -- Corporal, 18 initials T.D. 19 Q. T.D.? 20 A. Initials T., Tom, D. -- I'm going to 21 have to spell the last name, P-o-n-i-k-i-e-w-s-k-i. 22 How you pronounce that? 23 Q. How about Ponikiewski? 24 A. That sounds good to me. 25 Q. We'll use that. If it turns out it's 84 1 wrong, we'll have to change it. But it sounds 2 like Ponikiewski to me. 3 Is that all right with you? 4 A. Yeah, that sounds good. 5 Q. What was -- oh, gosh, what was her 6 title, was she Corporal? 7 A. Corporal. 8 Q. What was her function at the fire 9 scene? 10 A. Her function was to process the fire 11 scene also for any -- any indicator -- 12 indication of, you know, something out of the 13 ordinary, not just accidental fire. 14 You know, they have -- see, I can -- 15 I'm my own crime scene on fires, and I know what 16 I'm looking for. I know what kind of samples to 17 take -- you know, where and how to take 18 samples. 19 And at this point, she came to assist 20 me just in something that could be out of the 21 ordinary in this fire. 22 Q. Is she with the police department or 23 the fire department? 24 A. She's crime scene for P.D. 25 Q. Was she the crime scene officer that 85 1 you had requested? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Did you or she maintain a log of what 4 evidence was collected and where it came from? 5 A. She might -- she might done it. 6 Q. It seemed to me there was something 7 like that in the fire department records. 8 Looking at page 37 of Exhibit 27, can you 9 identify that? 10 A. Yes. This is going to be her report. 11 Q. Is it her evidence report? I'm reading 12 from the top of the page. 13 A. Her evidence report, yes. 14 Q. Just reading through this document 15 here, Inspector, it says that there was a -- 16 that the evidence was submitted by Corporal T.D. 17 Ponikiewski, 1965. Do you see that up here? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Say about the top quarter of the page? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you know who she submitted it to? 22 A. No, I wouldn't know. 23 Q. Oh, further down it says "received by" 24 and there's a colon, but it doesn't have a name 25 after that. Is that where it would have been 86 1 identified? 2 A. That's where the crime lab technician 3 signs his -- when he receives. 4 Q. Would there be another form of this 5 somewhere that would show that someone had 6 received it by signing there? 7 A. There should be another form when -- 8 similar to Lieutenant Young. Sort of like that 9 one right there (indicating) and maybe that's 10 what -- that's what you're looking for. 11 Q. What you're handing me is page -- which 12 is also found on page 10 of Exhibit 27. This 13 says submitted by Lieutenant Young, though? 14 A. Yes. And I wouldn't ask -- I wouldn't 15 -- I don't think I can answer that question. 16 Q. Okay. As you testified before, you 17 don't know what happened to it -- 18 A. Yeah. Because he was working at the 19 office at that time. 20 Q. Well, further down on this evidence 21 report, which is page 37 of Exhibit 27, it says 22 there's one roll color film containing 23 24 exposures? 24 A. Could be the pictures that she took. 25 Q. Pictures that -- 87 1 A. -- she took. 2 Q. -- that Corporal Ponikiewski took? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And you also took pictures? 5 A. I also took pictures. 6 Q. Now, under that where it says one roll 7 color film, it has a number of entries. You 8 see that -- can you identify what those are -- 9 where it says "one, hyphen, one RF passenger 10 seat"? 11 A. I think she's referring to picture 12 No. 1 from the rear front passenger seat, 13 picture No. 2 and so on and so on. 14 Q. If you could turn the page on that 15 exhibit to page 38. 16 VIDEOGRAPHER: I need to change 17 tapes. 18 MR. CRAMPTON: All right. We're 19 going to stop and change tapes. 20 MR. GRISHAM: Do you want to 21 break for lunch? 22 MR. CRAMPTON: Yeah. 23 (Lunch recess.) 24 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) Okay. Welcome back, 25 Inspector. You're still under oath. 88 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. When we left, we were talking about 3 Corporal Ponikiewski's evidence report in the -- 4 in Exhibit No. 27, which is open right now to 5 page 39. 6 A. Oh, excuse me. 7 Q. That's all right. Here's what you do. 8 There's page 1. And what we had was page 37, 9 was the one we were looking at before. And when 10 we left, we were just turning the page -- 11 actually, two pages to page 39. 12 A. 39. 13 Q. You see that -- 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. -- diagram? It looks like a diagram of 16 the car, sort of, sort of askew diagram of the 17 car. 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Can you identify that? 20 A. I think this was one done by Corporal, 21 and I think it's trying to depict the area where 22 the samples were taken. Correction, either 23 samples or photographs. 24 Q. Okay. Well, if you go back to page 37 25 and identify that there are -- there's one roll 89 1 of color film containing 24 exposures; you see 2 that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And then there are seven exhibits, or 5 what appears to be seven exhibits? 6 A. So that's what it might be too. 7 Q. Okay. So page 39 is the -- I guess not 8 exhibits, artifacts--is artifacts the proper 9 term? 10 A. Samples. 11 Q. Samples, okay. Can you identify where 12 the samples are identified or where they're 13 noted here on page 39, samples 1 through 7? Oh, 14 I see. No. 1 appears to be on the driver's door 15 toward the back of the passenger seat; is that 16 right? 17 A. Yes, that's correct. 18 Q. And then following around, we can see 19 where 2 was passenger seat, closer to the 20 middle? 21 A. Yeah, to the middle of the seat. 22 Q. Okay. And so these are where those 23 samples were taken. Can you -- do you know 24 which of the canisters contained the cigarette 25 pack that you found at the scene? 90 1 A. I don't recall which one was the one 2 that we put it in. 3 Q. Can you identify on this document where 4 the cigarette pack was when you first noticed 5 it? 6 A. No. 2. 7 Q. Here I can hand you a -- do you have a 8 pen? If you could just maybe put a "C" for 9 cigarette pack somewhere on there. 10 A. Yeah, right there. 11 Q. And you've placed it essentially right 12 next to the 2, where sample 2 was taken? 13 A. Oh, you want exact location, right? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Maybe in that area, if I can recall 16 correctly. 17 Q. Okay. And I guess we can do the same 18 thing with the remains of the butane lighter? 19 A. Right next to it, yeah, right there. 20 Q. Would you put your initials somewhere 21 near there just to show who wrote that on there? 22 A. (Witness complies). 23 Q. Thank you. So the cigarette pack and 24 the remains of the lighter were apparently on 25 the passenger's seat, right? 91 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. On the passenger's side of the seat; is 3 that correct? 4 A. The passenger's side of the seat, yes. 5 Q. Was it a bench seat? 6 A. I can't recall if it was a bench -- 7 just a solid -- what you're saying it's just 8 one? 9 Q. Yes, as opposed to bucket seats. 10 A. I cannot recall that. Could be -- the 11 best of my recollection, it was a bench. 12 Q. Okay. And the cigarettes and the 13 lighter were both found on the passenger's side 14 of that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you instruct Corporal Ponikiewski 17 to take the cigarettes and the lighter and keep 18 them as evidence? 19 A. Yes. I said, well, how about if we 20 would put those in a can with the samples. 21 Q. Did she just put them directly in the 22 can, or did she put them in a bag first? 23 A. Directly in the can. 24 Q. And your testimony is you -- well, do 25 you know whether those artifacts, those 92 1 samples--the cigarettes and the lighter--are 2 still in the cans? 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. Have you seen them since they were put 5 in the can? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Have you looked for them since they 8 were put in the can? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. What was it about the passenger side of 11 the seat that caused you to believe that the -- 12 that that was the point of origin?