2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 3 For The Plaintiff: 4 Waltman & Associates 3833 South Texas Avenue, Ste. 150 5 Bryan, Texas 77802 6 By: LYNN GRISHAM 7 For The Defendant, Philip Morris Companies, 8 Inc., et al: 9 Shook, Hardy & Bacon One Kansas City Place 10 1200 Main Street Kansas City, Missouri 64105 11 By: WILLIAM CRAMPTON 12 Also By: JOHN FRASER Also By: ROBERT NORTHRIP 13 14 For The Defendant, Philip Morris Companies, Inc., et al: 15 Carrington, Coleman, Sloman 16 & Blumenthal 200 Crescent Court, Ste. 1500 17 Dallas, Texas 75201 18 By: MICHAEL BRADEN 19 For The Defendant, Shelly Moore: 20 St. Clair & Markey 21 Summit Office Park 1200 Summit Avenue, Suite 620 22 Fort Worth, Texas 76102-4409 23 By: EDWARD MARKEY 24 Also Present: Reed Greer, Videographer 25 3 1 On the 13th day of February, 1996, at 2 the offices of St. Clair & Markey, Summit Office 3 Park, 1200 Summit Avenue, Conference Room, Fort 4 Worth, Tarrant County, Texas, SABINO VASQUEZ 5 appeared before me, Tamara J. Braun, a Certified 6 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for 7 Travis County, Texas and the State of Texas; and 8 being by me first duly sworn or affirmed, 9 testified by his oral/videotaped deposition, 10 pursuant to the notice of counsel for the 11 respective parties as hereinafter set forth. 12 13 - - - - - - 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 I N D E X 2 Page 3 Examination By Mr. Grisham - - - - - - - 5 4 Examination By Mr. Crampton - - - - - - - 51 5 Examination By Mr. Markey - - - - - - - 187 6 Further Examination By Mr. Grisham - - - 196 7 8 9 10 11 E X H I B I T I N D E X 12 Page 13 Vasquez Exhibit No. 1 - - - - - - - - - 10 Vasquez Exhibit No. 2 - - - - - - - - - 36 14 Vasquez Exhibit Nos. 3 - 4 - - - - - - - 37 Vasquez Exhibit Nos. 5 - 26 - - - - - - 44 15 Vasquez Exhibit No. 27 - - - - - - - - - 60 Vasquez Exhibit Nos. 28 - 29 - - - - - - 120 16 Vasquez Exhibit No. 30 - - - - - - - - - 148 17 18 19 Reporter's Certificate 205 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. GRISHAM: 3 Q. Would you state your full name for the 4 record, please? 5 A. Sabino M. Vasquez. 6 Q. Mr. Vasquez, my name is Lynn Grisham. 7 I'm here today representing the plaintiff in a 8 lawsuit that's been filed against Shelly Moore 9 and several Philip Morris entities. 10 I'll be asking you some questions, as 11 will the other lawyers, concerning an event that 12 took place on April 4th, 1992, and specifically 13 a fire whereby a little child that I represent 14 was injured. Do you recall that incident? 15 A. Yes, I do. 16 Q. What is your age, sir? 17 A. 44. 18 Q. How are you employed? 19 A. I'm employed with the Fort Worth Fire 20 Department. 21 Q. What is your title or position, or rank 22 may be an appropriate word? 23 A. Well, at the present time I'm assigned 24 to the fire investigations, the arson and bomb 25 squad. 6 1 Q. How long have you held that position? 2 A. This July is going to be seven years. 3 Q. How long have you worked for the Fort 4 Worth Fire Department? 5 A. '81, that would be -- since March '81 6 will be 15 years -- correction, close to 15 7 years next month. 8 Q. Could you give me a little bit of a 9 background on what positions or titles you've 10 held with the Fort Worth Fire Department since 11 you began in March of 1981? 12 A. At the beginning, I went to the fire 13 academy. I went as a fire trainee for a year on 14 probation. I was fully -- you know, placed as a 15 fully firefighter on -- I do not recall -- '84 I 16 was -- I took my first promotional exam. I was 17 moved to as a driver. 18 From there, I obtained my Fire 19 Technology degree. And after that, I moved to 20 -- in '89, I moved into the fire 21 investigations. I went through the police 22 academy. I became a certified police officer. 23 1990, I went to Red Stone Arsenal -- I 24 mean, Red Stone -- it's the F.B.I. bomb school. 25 I became a certified bomb technician. And then 7 1 in the same year, 1989, I became a certified 2 fire investigator. 3 Q. Okay. How does one become a certified 4 fire investigator? 5 A. You have to comply with TCLEOSE rules, 6 120 -- I think now it's 128 hours on cause and 7 origin and go through the fire dynamics and just 8 -- they have a curriculum where -- guidelines 9 to go by. 10 Q. And you completed that curriculum and, 11 in fact, became certified in that area? 12 A. To be a fire investigator, yes. That 13 was '89. Right after I became a peace officer, 14 that's when I went to the arson school. 15 Q. You mentioned that you had received a 16 Fire Technology degree. What is that course of 17 study? 18 A. That has to do and deals in relation 19 with fire dynamics, fire behavior and building 20 constructions, fire management. It's different 21 subjects. It's an Associate degree, that's the 22 one I have. 23 Q. Do you have to recertify in any of the 24 areas that you've told me about? 25 A. As fire investigator, we should have 20 8 1 hours to be recertified every year. And as a 2 peace officer, another 20 hours every year; as 3 bomb technician, we train once a month; as a 4 fire investigator, we train once a month, 8 5 hours. 6 Q. And you have continued to maintain your 7 certifications in each of those areas since you 8 became certified? 9 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Have you received any awards or 11 commendations at the Fort Worth Fire Department? 12 A. Well, I was nominated the firefighter 13 of the Year, but the fire -- I was the Fire 14 Prevention -- or Fire Investigator of the Year. 15 Q. For what year? 16 A. I think it was '93. Because last year 17 was '95 -- it was '93 or '94. I forgot -- they 18 gave me some kind of deal--a plaque that goes on 19 the wall--but I have a bunch of that. 20 Q. All right. Before going to work for 21 the Fort Worth Fire Department, where did you 22 work? 23 A. A long time ago. That was -- I was a 24 maintenance for a cotton mill that's located in 25 South Fort Worth. Back then, it was Traders, 9 1 T-r-a-d-e-r-s, Oil Mill Company. I was a 2 maintenance person. I used to repair all the 3 equipment around the company. 4 Q. Did you grow up in and around the Fort 5 Worth area? 6 A. No. I grew up in Mexico. 7 Q. And when did you come to the United 8 States? 9 A. Back in '73. 10 Q. I want to talk with you a little bit, 11 Mr. Vasquez, about the incident that I've 12 described to you earlier that occurred on April 13 4th of 1992. 14 But before we go into it, I'd like to 15 ask what you brought here with you today by way 16 of a file. 17 A. Some -- just the fire reports, police 18 report and copies of statements. 19 Q. I want to ask the court reporter to 20 mark this set of documents as Exhibit 1 to your 21 deposition. And I believe that contains many of 22 the pages out of your file. But I'd like for 23 you to look at this exhibit and confirm that 24 each one of these pages is contained in your 25 file. 10 1 (Vasquez Exhibit No. 1 was 2 marked for identification.) 3 (Discussion off the record.) 4 A. Yes. Some of this is from the fire 5 department and some from crime scene and 6 Detective Carpenter. 7 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) What I'd like to do 8 is get an idea from you which one of those or 9 which of those documents are contained in your 10 file with the Fort Worth Fire Department? 11 A. I have all my file, everything except 12 this copy (indicating) that's -- for whatever 13 the reason, I don't have it. You know, it's 14 just a police report. It's a police report. 15 Q. I'm going to ask that we take that out 16 of the exhibit, if that's all right. Can we 17 take that out, Mr. Vasquez? 18 A. (Witness complies). 19 Q. With that deletion, everything that you 20 have there in front of you marked as Exhibit A 21 are documents that you have in your fire 22 department file? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Who maintains the files that Exhibit A 25 are contained in at the fire department? 11 1 A. We do at our office. 2 Q. So you would actually maintain your own 3 file on the subject? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Do you maintain the file that Exhibit A 6 is contained in in the usual course of your 7 business there at the fire department; in other 8 words, is that how you usually and customarily 9 do things? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And did you maintain this particular 12 file that Exhibit A is contained in as a part of 13 your ordinary, regular business duties at the 14 fire department? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Are the documents marked as Exhibit A 17 duplicates of the ones that are in your file? 18 A. Yes, they appear to be. 19 Q. I'm going to ask some questions about 20 the April 4th, 1992, incident, and please feel 21 free to refer to your file or Exhibit A, if you 22 need to. 23 First of all, I would like to know how 24 is it that you came to be called to the event 25 where Shannon Moore was injured? 12 1 A. The fire department dispatcher received 2 the call. They sent the units up there to a 3 vehicle fire. Then after they arrived, the 4 incident commander, Chief Miller, they learned 5 they had a fire victim. So at that time is when 6 I, as on-duty investigator, be called on the 7 scene. That's the way I was notified. 8 Q. Were you notified by radio? 9 A. Both ways. They paged me on the pager, 10 plus on the radio they called me and said, they 11 need you at this location. 12 Q. Do you recall what time the -- or do 13 the records reflect what time the call came into 14 the Fort Worth Fire Department that a fire was 15 ongoing? 16 A. 18:29, 6:29. 17 Q. When did the fire department arrive at 18 the scene? 19 A. I will have to look at that one. This 20 one is not clear. Let me check on mine. I 21 thought I saw it. 22 Like I said, the first call was 23 received by the fire dispatcher at 18:29. The 24 first truck was dispatched at just 18:29 and 52, 25 the next number. The first truck on the scene 13 1 gets at 18:40. 2 Q. Does the dispatch record there from 3 your files tell you what the address was that 4 the trucks were dispatched to? 5 A. Yes. It shows 3458 LeBow. 6 Q. When you were paged and called to come 7 to this scene, were you given any information 8 about what -- what you might expect or what you 9 were being called for? 10 A. Yes. The radio -- I mean, you know, 11 the dispatcher say, they have a fire. They said 12 a burn victim. 13 Q. Back in April of 1992, did the fire 14 department have a policy--or was it a personal 15 policy of yours--that when there was a fire 16 victim, an investigator would be sent out? 17 A. That's always been the policy. 18 Q. About when did you arrive at the scene? 19 A. 18:51. 20 Q. And did you arrive by a fire department 21 car? 22 A. We have a Suburban, a big truck 23 Suburban, and that's what I keep all my 24 equipment in and that's the one I arrive on. 25 Q. When you arrived at the scene, can you 14 1 tell me, generally, what you observed, what you 2 saw? 3 A. I saw at least three or four fire 4 trucks, police officers on the street, 5 helicopter on one of the open fields--Care 6 Flight helicopter--still with the propeller 7 running. And I saw the ambulance personnel 8 working on the little baby. 9 Q. What did you do first to initiate your 10 investigation? 11 A. I report to the Chief, the incident 12 commander. I went to him. 13 Q. That was Mr. Miller? 14 A. Mr. Miller. He briefed me with the 15 details, then I met with a police officer in 16 charge and he more or less gave me the same 17 details. 18 At that point, I just -- you know, I 19 approached the vehicle, make visual observation 20 of the vehicle and then I asked around, you 21 know, some questions to the -- to the relatives 22 that were there. 23 Q. Starting with that first conversation 24 with Mr. Miller, the incident commander, what 25 sort of details did he give you about what had 15 1 happened? 2 A. He said first truck arriving says we 3 found an infant -- infant either in front of the 4 car or just outside the car already or in the 5 car -- I cannot recall exactly what he said. He 6 says, but we got the car engulfed in flames 7 inside and the fire victim. 8 So the first -- the initial procedure 9 was do first aid -- render the first aid. And 10 then he says -- and, you know, and then I have 11 to call for more backup, more personnel to 12 assist on this. 13 And they said, we extinguish the fire, 14 we put out the fire. We did not disturb 15 anything. Everything was still intact. So I 16 said, did anybody -- my question is, did anybody 17 saw how it happened -- I mean, what occur over 18 here? 19 And he says, the kid was sleeping on 20 the backseat and mama went inside the house. 21 And when they came out, the car was on fire -- 22 you know, in those words, more or less. 23 Q. All right. Did the police officer give 24 you pretty much the same details? 25 A. The same, yes. 16 1 Q. So following that, you approached the 2 vehicle, made a visual inspection, and then 3 begin to question the relatives that were at the 4 scene? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Can you tell me, to the best of your 7 recollection, who you talked to and what they 8 told you? 9 A. The mother was the first one--the 10 mother of the child. And I asked her, I said, 11 how you discover the fire? I mean, what were 12 you doing? And she went -- told me -- says, 13 parked the car, got some food, came inside the 14 house and prepared the food to serve it to mama 15 and daddy. 16 And I asked a young girl, I says, keep 17 you eye on the car because I've got my baby in 18 the car. And the next thing I know the car is 19 on -- oh, my sister is yelling, screaming, the 20 car is on fire. I ran outside. And she went to 21 the wrong side of the car trying to open the car 22 and then she went around the car and got the 23 baby out. 24 MR. CRAMPTON: I want to just 25 object. I'm not sure whether that answer was 17 1 responsive to the question. And I want to ask, 2 if you would, to try to keep these clear who's 3 talking to who. Because in the answer there, I 4 didn't know who said what. I think it was just 5 that the question was a little broad. 6 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah, and certainly 7 what I intended it to be. 8 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) You were talking to 9 Shelly Moore at that time, and these facts were 10 relayed to you by Shelly Moore? 11 A. That's correct. 12 MR. CRAMPTON: Was Shelly Moore 13 the -- I'm sorry, I started to -- 14 MR. GRISHAM: The mother. 15 MR. CRAMPTON: Was Shelly Moore 16 the young girl that you were talking about? 17 THE WITNESS: No. She was in her 18 30's. 19 MR. CRAMPTON: Okay. I'm sorry. 20 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) That's all right. 21 That was the mother of the child? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you talk to other relatives then to 24 try to confirm that or get other details? 25 A. The young girl. I cannot recall -- no, 18 1 I cannot recall the name. 2 Q. It was a young girl that you were told 3 was a member of the family of the home? 4 A. Member of the family, the one that was 5 supposed to be looking after the car, you know, 6 just watching outside for the baby. 7 Q. What did that young girl relate to you 8 happened? 9 A. If I recall correctly, she said, I went 10 to the back of the house. I was there, looked 11 through the window, everything okay. She did -- 12 she was, you know, busy doing whatever she was 13 doing. And then she said, I look again and I 14 saw smoke coming out of the car. And that's 15 when she ran and told mama the car is on fire. 16 Q. Did you talk with any other relatives? 17 A. It was another man, Bud -- well, excuse 18 me, I think that was the nickname they gave me. 19 And I asked him, what did you do? He says, 20 well, I came out and tried to put out the fire 21 -- you know, trying to help them to get the kid 22 out of the car. But he was in the kitchen -- I 23 mean, you know, in the living room area with 24 everybody else. 25 Q. Did you talk with any other relatives 19 1 or bystanders? 2 A. It was another person there, too, and I 3 just asked him if he saw anything, and he pretty 4 much said the same thing, you know. 5 Q. After you completed that portion of 6 your investigation, that is, talking to the 7 people at the scene, did you move to the next 8 step of investigating the cause? 9 A. Yes, that's correct. Then I moved to 10 the vehicle. 11 Q. What -- can you relate to us what you 12 did in that stage of your investigation? 13 A. I started with visual -- I mean, you 14 know, just looking, observing the interior of 15 the vehicle. First of all, you know, I start 16 from the outside. I look at the exterior of the 17 vehicle. 18 Indicators indicate the fire came from 19 the passenger area, so I moved to the -- no, one 20 step before that. I did not recall if the hood 21 of the vehicle was partially open or open all 22 the way, but I remember looking at the engine. 23 I looked at the engine compartment. 24 Then I moved to the -- to the interior 25 of the vehicle. I look at the fire spread, the 20 1 damage, and I keep looking at the contents, you 2 know, where it was on the seat. Everything 3 keeps leading me to the -- to the seat -- to the 4 front passenger seat. And from there I just 5 look and observe the things. I saw how the fire 6 is spread. I observe how -- I mean, you know, 7 the combustibles nearby. 8 At that time I said, well, you know, I 9 stopped -- I'm not sure if I -- yeah, I think I 10 took pictures at this time. I took pictures. 11 So at this time before moving anything, I moved 12 to the police officer. I go up to the police 13 officer, I said, I think it would be nice if 14 crime scene gets -- you know, come over here. 15 I'm my own -- I do my own crime scene 16 on most every fire. But this one being a fire 17 victim and an infant, you know, I just said, 18 okay, I need somebody else to look it over, you 19 know, see what I'm missing. 20 Q. Did he comply and get a crime scene 21 officer? 22 A. Yes, yes. We receive a crime scene 23 officer. 24 Q. What is the next step in the 25 investigation that you took? 21 1 A. The next step was, I get back to the 2 relatives again. What -- you know, the 3 questions, you know, what you had on the seat. 4 I mean, you know, what was on this area, what 5 was here, what you had, what were you doing, you 6 know, these questions. At that time, well, 7 Sharon -- 8 Q. Shelly? 9 A. Shelly -- the mother, she says, I had 10 work done on the car. If I recall correctly, 11 alternator -- no, no, correction. Starter or 12 alternator, some kind of -- one of those things 13 on the engine because it was not running 14 properly, so we -- I had work done. So -- and 15 she said, I think that's what caused the fire. 16 So I just move along. I went to the 17 man, Bud -- I go to him, I said, what did you 18 notice, what was right here; and he says, this 19 is an electrical fire. And I said, why you say 20 that it's an electrical fire? 21 He said, well, that car is always 22 missing and we had work done. And I said, well, 23 if the work was done on the engine, why you 24 think the fire start over here? He said, it 25 started on the dashboard. And I said, no, it 22 1 not started on the dashboard. I said, it 2 started over here on the seat. 3 So at that time, mama is there -- I 4 mean, Sharon. 5 Q. Shelly. 6 A. Shelly, she's there. And she said, 7 well, on the seat I just had a sack with 8 groceries, a package with Pampers, my 9 cigarettes, my lighter -- you know, she goes 10 naming all those things. 11 So I said, well, did you smoke? And 12 she said, yes, I do smoke, but I never smoke 13 inside the car when I have the baby with me. 14 And at that time I observe her smoking. I said, 15 well, like right now, you realize you are 16 smoking, you know, things like that. So she 17 said, maybe I was smoking. 18 I said, well, do you remember what you 19 do with the cigarette? And she says -- I can't 20 recall what she said -- either she toss it out 21 or she did something with it. So I said, 22 there's a possibility that you place it over 23 here by the seat then -- on the seat? She said 24 -- and that's when she got a little irate with 25 me, because that question was improper. She 23 1 thought it was improper question for me to imply 2 that she -- without knowing, she just discarded 3 the cigarette. 4 Q. Okay. And did you continue asking 5 similar questions as a part of your 6 investigation to her and other members? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Can you tell us the remainder of the 9 conversations, to the best of your recollection? 10 A. At that time, crime scene gets there -- 11 the officer gets there. So we go over and I 12 say, well, look what I got. So I go and I said, 13 I think the fire started on the seat because I 14 eliminate all the possibility of electrical 15 fire, you know. There was no connection between 16 the dashboard and on the seat. 17 So I explain her what I had and I said, 18 I would like to take sample of here, here. And 19 at that time, they get on the car -- I mean, the 20 whole family gets on the vehicle. 21 Q. Gets physically on top of it? 22 A. No, no. I mean, you know, they sit 23 inside the vehicle. They fixing to go to Dallas 24 to visit the kid that just left on the Care 25 Flight. 24 1 Q. They got in another vehicle? 2 A. They got in another vehicle that was, 3 you know, parked in the front yard. So I said, 4 ma'am, before -- you know, before you leave, I 5 need to ask you some more questions. 6 And Bud -- well, that's -- I can go 7 look at his name -- he says, she don't have to 8 answer no more questions. She already told 9 you. She already let you know everything that 10 you need to know, and we're out of here. 11 And so I said, well -- you know, I keep 12 insisting -- well, ma'am, there's a possibility 13 that you forgot the cigarette, and she was 14 crying at that time. And the male, Bud, says, 15 she don't -- listen, she don't have to answer 16 you no more questions. 17 Q. Did they leave then, following that? 18 A. Well, no. She -- I said, well, either 19 -- she's not going nowhere. Either she talk to 20 me right here or we go downtown--I put it that 21 way. And so I said, ma'am, step out. So she 22 got out of the car. 23 I said, there's a possibility, and she 24 said, no, I don't think so. I said, ma'am, 25 that's the only way, that's the only ignition 25 1 source that could have. That's the only thing 2 because the front seat has the bag with the 3 groceries, Pampers, some more combustibles 4 around. On the back it was tennis shoes, blue 5 jeans, mop, you know. 6 So I said, there's a possibility that's 7 what happened because, look, the fire starts 8 here, it spreads -- you know, I went through the 9 sequence to explain her how the fire spread to 10 the backseat. 11 Q. What did she say in response to that? 12 A. She said maybe. She said, I don't 13 know, maybe I was smoking. I said, okay. You 14 know, go on and see your baby -- I mean, go to 15 Dallas. And, you know, I go back and we look at 16 the car again. This is the only -- that's the 17 only possibility, that's the -- something, the 18 discarded cigarette that she could have -- 19 somehow it could be left on the seat. 20 Q. And that's the conclusion you arrived 21 at on the scene within an hour after the event? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What was the next step in the 24 investigation? 25 A. After photographing the vehicle, 26 1 collecting the evidence and we got a wrecker out 2 there to pull the car. Because at that time, 3 the police says, well, we need to keep custody 4 of the vehicle for a few days, and I said, okay, 5 it's all yours. 6 Q. Did you actually take the samples from 7 the vehicle yourself? 8 A. No. The officer on the crime scene, 9 they took the samples. 10 Q. Were you able to suggest to the officer 11 what you wanted sampled? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And what did you direct that you wanted 14 sampled? 15 A. One of the samples was right next to 16 where I thought it was the origin--the point of 17 origin, right there. I said, give me a sample 18 right there. And, you know, it was three or 19 four samples; and then on the other side of the 20 seat and, I think, one on the back -- on the 21 rear passenger seat. 22 Q. Were each of the samples that you asked 23 for all seating material samples? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Why were you interested in seeing or 27 1 having the seat sampled? 2 A. Well, on this particular fire, you 3 know, just the possibility of something else 4 that could be flammable liquid in it, you know. 5 Just a possibility, the window being open, you 6 know, the car -- you know, it's just one of 7 those feels, just trying to cover 8 everything--the possibility. 9 Because if mama was -- the mother was 10 kind of adamant that she never smokes inside the 11 car and everything, just something to -- you 12 know, to prevent something that -- there could 13 be somebody could have set that fire, I guess. 14 You know, to prove that. 15 Q. And we've got some canisters with 16 samples here in the room today, and I want to 17 ask you some questions about them later. But 18 before we go into that, I'd just like to ask, 19 were the samples placed in, what I call, paint 20 can type canisters there at the scene? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And that was done by the police officer 23 that headed up the crime scene? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And the police officer then took those 28 1 samples with them? 2 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection; 3 leading. 4 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) What happened to the 5 samples after they were placed in the canister 6 -- canisters? 7 A. Let me see, did -- let me check. I 8 think -- let me see, because I saw a -- I'm not 9 recalling if I took it myself on my vehicle or 10 the police officer took it with her. And then 11 Lieutenant Young got those samples, and he -- 12 he's the one that took those to the crime lab. 13 Q. And who is Lieutenant Young? 14 A. He's another investigator from my 15 office. 16 Q. What crime lab did he take the samples 17 to? 18 A. The Fort Worth Police Department crime 19 lab. 20 Q. And did you or someone else tell them 21 what tests you wanted run? 22 A. Yes. Just check for accelerant or any 23 flammable liquid. 24 Q. And is the Fort Worth crime lab the lab 25 that you or any other fire investigator with the 29 1 fire department would send samples to have these 2 type tests run under any other circumstance? 3 A. Yes, yes. That's the only lab that we 4 use. 5 Q. Have you sent samples to that lab 6 before? 7 A. All the time, yes. 8 Q. Do you typically in the course of your 9 job rely upon the results of that laboratory and 10 reaching conclusions in your investigations and 11 helping you and assisting you in your 12 investigations in other matters? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Did you receive a report back from the 15 crime lab? 16 A. I don't remember seeing one, but they 17 keep a copy. Once I need it, I just call and 18 give them the numbers and they provide a copy. 19 Q. Did someone at the crime lab tell you 20 what the results of the tests were? 21 A. When I requested, yes. 22 Q. When did you -- approximately when did 23 you request that information? 24 A. Personally I don't think I did it, but 25 I don't know if somebody else from the office 30 1 did it. Because at that time, I was working 24 2 hours and off 72. So the next 24 hours I put 3 all the paperwork and it goes to the office. We 4 have a personnel in the office that works eight 5 hours a day. They are the ones that do the 6 follow-up investigations. 7 Q. At any rate, somehow you found out what 8 the results were at the lab, didn't you? 9 A. I think so, yes. 10 Q. And what did you learn from the lab's 11 testing of the materials? 12 A. If I remember correctly, no accelerants 13 found. 14 Q. At that point, was your investigation 15 concluded in terms of this fire? 16 A. Yes. At that point, we concluded it 17 was a discarded cigarette. 18 Q. I want to go over the conclusions. And 19 many of them you've already -- you've told me 20 through the course of describing your 21 investigation. 22 And I'm going to turn first to what is 23 described in the records as a Fort Worth Fire 24 Department Incident Report. And I believe there 25 are actually two incident reports in the file; 31 1 is that correct? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. One is made by you? 4 A. Yes. The investigator report, that 5 would be mine. 6 Q. And the other one is made by incident 7 in command? 8 A. Incident Commander Chief Miller. 9 Q. Why are there two reports? Is that 10 protocol, he makes a report and you make a 11 report; or is there some other reason? 12 A. No. That's the protocol. That's the 13 rule. He's the incident commander. Every time 14 there's a fire, he makes his own report. And 15 every time that they require or they request a 16 fire investigator, I'm the one that makes 17 another report. And anyway, my report supersede 18 his. 19 Q. Okay. If I understood your testimony 20 correctly, the one conclusion that you made was 21 that the origin of the fire in the Moore vehicle 22 was the front seat area, correct? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Did you arrive at a conclusion as to 25 what portion of the seat the origin was and what 32 1 specific locale? 2 A. On the passenger's side just kind of 3 between the middle. On the passenger's side 4 just kind of in the middle of the seat. 5 Q. Okay. Was it closer to the front or 6 closer to the back of the seat where the seat 7 back meets the lower portion of the seat? 8 A. Closer to the front. 9 Q. How close was -- were the other 10 combustibles--you mentioned some Pampers, and I 11 thought you said something else, Pampers and -- 12 A. And a brown bag, like, grocery sack. 13 Q. How close were those combustible 14 materials to the point of origin? 15 A. Right on the point of origin. 16 Q. You mentioned that Ms. Moore had said 17 she took some food into the house? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Was this brown sack with some groceries 20 other food parts or was -- 21 A. If I remember correctly, maybe I notice 22 like a hot dog, like a hot dog. 23 Q. So it may have been a fast-food type of 24 sack? 25 A. Yes, sir; yes, sir. 33 1 Q. How close was -- were the Pampers to 2 the point of origin? 3 A. Right next to that. 4 Q. Within centimeters or inches, or can 5 you give me any better or closer estimate? 6 A. Oh, that would be hard. Just right -- 7 right to, you know, standing -- I mean, sitting 8 on top of the seat right next to it. 9 Q. It was right next to the point of 10 origin? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you reach a conclusion as to which 13 direction the fire spread following its 14 origination? 15 A. It spread right there on the seat, and 16 then up and towards the back part of the seat -- 17 you know, through the back part and then it 18 rolled -- you know, just go back and then rolls 19 back and behind the backseat. 20 Q. The flames -- or did flames actually 21 spread from the seat cushion--the lower seat 22 cushion--in your opinion, to the backseat 23 cushion? 24 A. Yes. The flames spread up at the same 25 time they spread onto the backseat. And once 34 1 they got into the ceiling, they just rolled back 2 to the back of the seat. 3 Q. You've mentioned the discussions with 4 the family about electrical problems to the 5 car. And I took it from what you told us, you 6 did not believe that this fire was caused by an 7 electrical problem? 8 A. No, sir. I don't think it was 9 electrical problem at that time. 10 Q. What about your investigation ruled 11 that out, in your mind? 12 A. Once the fire indicators -- once I 13 observe and look and I could not connect any, 14 you know, any electrical, you know, spark, arc, 15 going on to this-- you know, on the seat, on the 16 cushion. 17 Q. And you looked under the hood to see if 18 there was any evidence there? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Did you look at around the instrument 21 panel or dashboard to see if there was any 22 evidence there? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And you were satisfied that that was 25 not where the fire started? 35 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. I'm going to have to ask you to educate 3 me a little bit here. In looking at burn 4 patterns on the inside of a vehicle or anywhere 5 else, do white spots on metal indicate there is 6 greater heat there or less heat, or does that 7 provide an indicator one way or the other? 8 A. Can you repeat your question? 9 Q. Sure. That was a convoluted question. 10 What is the significance of what appear to be 11 white spots on metal where a fire has been? 12 A. It be -- 13 Q. Maybe I can rephrase it a little bit 14 better. If the paint on, say, for instance, a 15 motor vehicle like this car, if the paint is 16 black after a fire, have you noticed, either in 17 this investigation or others, white spots in the 18 metal -- 19 A. Well -- 20 Q. -- where the paint is burned away? 21 A. -- I guess you're referring to the 22 metal part, right? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. After they burn, right? 25 Q. Correct. 36 1 A. Let's say, the metal is going to 2 indicate the intensity of the heat--the 3 temperature of the heat. Let's say, like you 4 said, if it's a black spot, that means it got 5 hot, but not hot to the point like if you 6 observe or see whitish stuff. That means right 7 there it was -- the heat was more intense right 8 there and it burned with more intensity right 9 there. 10 (Vasquez Exhibit No. 2 was 11 marked for identification.) 12 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) I want to hand you, 13 Mr. Vasquez, what's been marked as Exhibit 2 to 14 your deposition, and ask you if you can identify 15 the subject of the photograph? 16 MR. CRAMPTON: May I take a look 17 at it real quick? You did refer to the first 18 one as "A." 19 MR. GRISHAM: Did I? 20 MR. CRAMPTON: But -- was it 1? 21 COURT REPORTER: It was 1. 22 A. This appears to be the vehicle, but I 23 cannot recall -- I cannot get a picture if it's 24 the top portion of the vehicle. 25 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) I believe that 37 1 represents -- I can show you some other 2 photographs that might help orient you. Just 3 give me a moment to pull those out. 4 (Vasquez Exhibit Nos. 3 and 4 5 were marked for identification.) 6 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) I'll hand you what's 7 been marked as Exhibits 3 and 4, which you may 8 want to use to help orient you, possibly. 9 A. Is that me? 10 Q. Sir? 11 A. Is that me -- a picture of myself? 12 Q. I don't know. Do you recognize in any 13 of the three exhibits, 2, 3, or 4, the vehicle 14 as being the vehicle that you investigated this 15 fire? 16 A. Yeah. This is the vehicle, yes. 17 Q. Maybe I can circumvent my long, 18 convoluted questions and ask this. Did you 19 notice anything about the burn pattern or the 20 heat intensity patterns in the metal -- 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. -- that led you to conclude that the 23 point of origin was in the front seat? 24 A. Yeah. You asked me a question on the 25 metal part, right? 38 1 Q. Yes. 2 A. And I answered you with a "yes." Where 3 the flame is going to impinge for the longest, 4 the metal is going to get hotter. The hotter it 5 gets with intensity -- intensity of the fire and 6 temperature, yes, it's going -- it's going to be 7 kind of bluish and the paint or the finish -- 8 the coat, the finish, is going to be whitish, 9 like an ash, just like a powder. 10 And that's one of the indicators that 11 you look at as a fire investigator, right there, 12 is the concentration of your... 13 Q. And did you note that sort of evidence 14 with the vehicle that you looked at, which is 15 represented by Exhibits 2, 3, and 4? 16 A. Yes, yes. 17 Q. Where did you see that sort of high 18 heat intensity pattern? 19 A. Right -- like on the passenger seat--on 20 the front passenger seat--right there just above 21 on the ceiling. 22 Q. Were you able to or did you consider 23 the possibility that there was an exhaust 24 problem with the car that caused the fire? 25 A. I checked on that -- 39 1 Q. How did you -- 2 A. -- and I eliminate that. 3 Q. How did you check on it and eliminate 4 it? 5 A. When the wrecker truck lift the 6 vehicle, I took pictures from underneath and 7 look at the bottom of -- you know, the bottom of 8 the vehicle. 9 Q. And you didn't see anything there that 10 led you to believe the fire started with the 11 exhaust system? 12 A. I didn't see anything. 13 Q. Another conclusion I believe that you 14 indicated earlier in your testimony that you 15 arrived at, and which appears on your incident 16 report, is that the form of heat that provided 17 the ignition for this fire was a discarded 18 cigarette. Did I hear you correctly? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And is that your opinion? 21 A. Taking in consideration the fire 22 indicators, taking in consideration the 23 witnesses -- I mean, the -- well, witnesses 24 statements and just by looking at the fire, 25 that's the only ignition source it could be in 40 1 that seat. 2 Q. Did you see any evidence of cigarettes 3 or a lighter in the front seat of the car? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What did -- to the best you can recall, 6 what did you see? 7 A. The remains of a cigarette lighters and 8 remains of a cigarette pack. 9 Q. Do you recall whether or not those were 10 taken as samples? 11 A. Yes, they were taken as a sample. 12 Q. What sort of container were they placed 13 in? 14 A. On the sample that was taken from right 15 there--from the point of origin--in one of those 16 cans. I saw them being put in the can. 17 Q. Do you know where those samples are 18 today? In other words -- 19 A. The last time I knew, they were in the 20 can at the crime lab is the last time. 21 Q. And that was the piece of lighter -- 22 A. Whatever -- yes, the remains. 23 Q. -- and the piece of the cigarette pack? 24 A. Yes, the remains. 25 Q. Could you tell what brand the 41 1 cigarettes were from the package, or do you 2 recall? 3 A. I don't recall. I don't recall. Off 4 the record or whatever, red -- for some reason 5 red comes to my picture, looking -- but it was 6 too destroyed, swelled to tell what it -- I 7 mean, you know, what color was it. 8 Q. Do you recall how many evidence 9 canisters there were at the scene that were -- 10 evidence was placed in? 11 A. Between five and seven -- five. 12 Q. And those went with the police officer? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And after that, you never had custody 15 of them? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did you consider the concept that the 18 lighter may have been the source of the fire? 19 A. I look at -- you know, I thought about 20 it, but I don't think this one was the case. 21 Q. Did you understand what the child -- 22 what the child was doing at the time that the 23 fire -- the ignition of the fire occurred? Were 24 you given that information through your 25 investigation? 42 1 A. Yes. The kid should be strapped onto 2 the baby carrier, strapped onto it sleeping. 3 Q. Do you recall whether she was in the 4 front or backseat? 5 A. It was behind the driver -- on the rear 6 seat, behind the driver's side. 7 Q. In your experience in investigating 8 fires, what do cigarette lighters usually do 9 when they are exposed to the heat of open flame? 10 A. Burst. 11 Q. With regard to the Pampers and the sack 12 in the front seat that you told me about, were 13 those items fully consumed by the fire, or can 14 you give me an idea to what degree they were 15 burned? 16 A. The Pampers were consumed like half, 17 like just one side was burnt, but it was remains 18 where you can tell what it was. 19 Q. What about the sack, was it almost 100 20 percent gone or was it still -- 21 A. It would be fair to say almost 100 22 percent gone. 23 Q. Were there any other clothings or 24 beddings or any other materials in the front 25 seat that caught fire as well? 43 1 A. There was combustible remains of 2 something else. I couldn't -- I could not make 3 it out what it was. 4 Q. Do you know whether the windows of the 5 automobile were open or closed at the time the 6 ignition occurred through your investigation? 7 A. If I recall correctly, the driver's 8 side was either open or partially open -- I 9 mean, the window. 10 Q. Do you recall about the other three? 11 A. I don't recall the other three, because 12 I observe broken glass. 13 Q. In Incident Commander Miller's report 14 for form of material ignited, he notes, 15 "car seats." And in your notation on your 16 incident report, you noted "multiple." Can you 17 tell me what -- if you know, what he was 18 referring to by "car seats," and what you were 19 referring to by "multiple"? 20 A. I'm referring to -- on my report I was 21 referring to multiple because, you know, it 22 started right there where there was like a hot 23 dog, the brown sack and the plastic--right there 24 in that area. His, I could not make a comment 25 on that. 44 1 Q. All right. If you don't know, that's 2 fine. 3 A. Because I don't know why he put seat. 4 Q. Do you know if the fire or if the heat 5 source and ignition started with the seat and 6 spread to the other materials, or if the heat 7 caused the other materials to combust first? Or 8 do you have an opinion one way or the other? 9 A. The indicator indicated that 10 combustibles, the ones that caught on fire and 11 then just spread onto the -- into the cushion. 12 Q. I'm going to mark a series of 13 photographs now, so it will take us a couple of 14 moments. And I'm going to ask you to look at 15 those. 16 MR. GRISHAM: Could we go off the 17 record and get some coffee while she's marking 18 those? 19 (Vasquez Exhibit Nos. 5 - 26 were 20 marked for identification.) 21 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Vasquez, I want 22 to take a few moments with you. We've presented 23 some photographs to you, which are marked Nos. 5 24 through 26. Would you go through those and tell 25 us which ones you can identify and, briefly, 45 1 what they they represent. And if you can't 2 identify one, that's all right, too. 3 A. I'm looking at one what appears to be 4 the -- depicting the front seat of the vehicle. 5 Q. Is that Exhibit 5? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Is that how it appeared at or about the 8 time that you investigated this incident? 9 A. That's correct. No. 6 just depicts the 10 full -- the full vehicle and the fire scene in 11 front of the -- the location where it was 12 located at. 13 No. 7 appears to be the -- depicting 14 the driver's side and the backseat. 15 No. 8 is going to be on the passenger 16 side, the rear door. 17 No. 9 is going to be the passenger seat 18 and also the floor mat. And, you know, you can 19 tell about the dashboard also. 20 No. 10 is going to depict the engine 21 compartment. 22 No. 11 depicts some of the officers on 23 the scene--police officers on the scene with 24 me. I don't recall them. 25 This one depicts again the front seat. 46 1 Q. Is that No. 12? 2 A. No. 12, yes, sir. 3 No. 13 is going to depict the passenger 4 door. That would be the right-hand side and 5 portion of the seat. 6 No. 14 is going to depict the right 7 rear seat. 8 No. 15, that's going to be the 9 left-hand side, depicting also a baby carrier. 10 16 goes back to the right-hand side on 11 the rear side showing some -- the mop handle or 12 blue jeans. It was several combustibles on the 13 back, different types. 14 This one, I think that it tried to 15 depict the license plate. 16 Q. Is that No. 17? 17 A. No. 17. 17 and 18 is a repetition -- 18 or looks more like the same angle. 19 Q. 18 is another attempt to depict the 20 license plate of the vehicle? 21 A. Probably. 19, on this one I cannot 22 make it -- which one is it. It's the mop 23 handle, but I just can't recall what it was. 24 Q. You can recall -- you can identify that 25 as the mop handle, but you can't tell me exactly 47 1 where it's located in the car? 2 A. Yeah. If it's on the right-hand side 3 or left side. This one is, again, the rear 4 seat. 5 Q. No. 20? 6 A. No. 20. 21 depicts the baby carrier 7 and the protected area. 8 The driver's side. 9 Q. No. 22? 10 A. No. 22. This one looks more like a 11 repetition of the -- where the car was parked in 12 driveway and the residence. 13 Q. And that's intended to show the 14 location of the car in the driveway? 15 A. Yeah, the location, yes. 23, that was 16 23. 17 24 is depicting the rear seat. 18 25 is just another angle depicting the 19 position of the vehicle. 20 26 is the front seat. 21 Q. Do the photographs marked as Exhibits 5 22 through 26 fairly and accurately display how the 23 vehicle in the scene looked on the evening that 24 you were there conducting your investigation? 25 A. That's correct. 48 1 Q. Did you take the photographs, or did 2 someone in your presence take the photographs? 3 A. I took some of the photographs, and I 4 think the crime scene person took some too. 5 Q. From the police department? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Officer Vasquez, approximately how many 8 fire scenes have you investigated as a fire 9 scene investigator? 10 A. Hundreds. Up to now? 11 Q. Yes, sir. 12 A. Is your question up to now? 13 Q. Up to now. 14 A. It would be fair to say over 1,000. 15 Q. As of April 1992, you had been a 16 certified fire investigator for three years. At 17 that time, approximately how many scenes had you 18 investigated? 19 A. It would be hard to say. Hundreds. 20 It's hard to speculate on that. 21 Q. It would be over 100 in your 22 estimation? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. Does the City of Fort Worth keep any 25 sort of records in the fire department or 49 1 statistical data concerning the causes of the 2 fires in the City? 3 And the reason I ask that is I noted 4 that the incident report has some -- a numbering 5 system by the different blocks, and I was just 6 wondering if the City uses this information 7 statistically. 8 A. I work for the fire prevention. I 9 think that, yes, they have the data on the 10 computer and they can -- they can, you know, 11 arrange it to the point where they can say, 12 okay, well, this is where -- this is the cause 13 for -- let's say, just for the sake of saying, 14 kitchen fires--cooking--and they can say the 15 percentage. They can go in and look at, you 16 know, and make a study on that. 17 Q. In your own personal experience--and 18 not necessarily the information on the incident 19 reports--but your -- just relying upon your own 20 personal experience, how often would you say 21 that you are involved in investigating a fire 22 where a cigarette is the cause or suspected 23 cause? 24 A. It's quite often, but it would be hard 25 for me to give you percentage numbers. 50 1 Q. Could you give me an estimate based 2 upon how many a year or month? 3 A. It's a lot of them. I mean, it's 4 plenty out there, but it would be hard to say 5 the number because, you know, like I said, it 6 can be done -- it can be arranged to the point 7 where we can come out to a close figure. But at 8 this time, for me, it's just -- it's familiar to 9 me. It's something I encounter often. 10 Q. Okay. Have you investigated or been 11 associated with the investigation of any fires 12 this year, and we're in February of 1996, that a 13 cigarette was the suspected cause? 14 A. It's only two months into the year. 15 Q. Right. 16 A. Some of my co-workers mention something 17 like that, but it would be hard -- I can't 18 recall one right now right on top of my head. 19 Q. How many other fire investigators are 20 there in your department? 21 A. Eight more, including my supervisor. 22 Q. What is your supervisor's name? 23 A. Fernando Gonzales. 24 MR. GRISHAM: I'll pass the 25 witness. Thank you. 51 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. CRAMPTON: 3 Q. Inspector, my name is Bill Crampton. I 4 introduced myself earlier. I represent Philip 5 Morris, Incorporated, in the case brought by 6 Ms. Shipman against Philip Morris, Incorporated, 7 and some other entities with Philip Morris 8 names, and I'd like to ask you a few questions 9 also. 10 Mr. Grisham asked you a few questions 11 about your training related to fire 12 investigation. And I had a few additional 13 questions I wanted to ask, which I'll begin 14 now. 15 You said that you took a course to 16 become trained as a fire investigator? 17 A. It's -- when I took it, it was a course 18 curriculum put out by the State that includes 19 120 hours and fire related. 20 Q. Is it taught at a school somewhere or 21 is -- 22 A. The one that I went to, it was offered 23 by the Garland Fire Department. 24 Q. I'm sorry? 25 A. By the Garland Fire Department. It's 52 1 different locations where -- you know, it's 2 different locations where they offer, you know, 3 through the year around the State. But also in 4 1995--that be last year--I was honored to go to 5 the National Fire Academy and -- 6 Q. Where is that? 7 A. That's going to be in Emmitsburg, 8 Maryland. That's the National Fire Academy, and 9 I went to their fire investigation 10 certification. 11 Q. When did you go to Emmitsburg, Maryland 12 for that training? 13 A. That would be in November 1995. 14 Q. You also said that you do some 15 continuing education, 20 hours a month -- or 20 16 hours a year of monthly classes. Where are 17 those taught? 18 A. Different locations. At the Fire 19 Academy--Fort Worth Fire Academy. Different 20 locations within the metroplex where our 21 association meets, or ourselves--our 22 division--we get together and have guest 23 speakers like the district attorney, another 24 fire investigator, different topics. 25 Q. In the course of your training, did you 53 1 have any specific classes or specific training 2 related to car fires? 3 A. When I became certified in '89, I took 4 -- you know, that was one of the topics. Then 5 when I was going through the fire investigations 6 school--I have an Associate in fire 7 investigations also--we covered some of those 8 courses. 9 Q. Are there any textbooks or publications 10 that you rely upon for investigating car fires? 11 A. I have a few in our library. 12 Q. Can you recall the names of them? 13 A. Not on top of my head. 14 Q. Do you make reference or do you refer 15 to those textbooks or journals on car fires when 16 you are conducting an investigation on a car 17 fire? 18 A. Once in a while I review, you know, 19 something that I see out of the ordinary; 20 something that, you know, it looks particular in 21 that case, yes. 22 Q. Did you consult one of those 23 publications with respect to this fire? 24 A. Not originally. Probably when they 25 call me the first time. That would be, when, 54 1 last year? When they notified me that something 2 was coming out of this case. 3 Q. Who notified you? 4 A. I don't recall. I have to go back and 5 check the paperwork. 6 Q. Did someone from the fire department 7 contact you and tell you that there was 8 something coming out of this case, or was it 9 someone from the outside? 10 A. It was somebody from the outside, plus 11 the deputy chief from the fire department. 12 Q. When did the deputy chief contact you? 13 A. He's no longer with us. He retired. 14 Q. What was his name? 15 A. Don Peacock. The only date I can see 16 is 10/6, no year. 17 Q. When -- what was his title, Deputy 18 Chief Peacock? 19 A. Yeah, he was the fire marshal. 20 Q. When he contacted you, what did he tell 21 you about the case? 22 A. He wanted to know the origin and cause 23 of the fire, from my determination. And he 24 inquired something about the lighter and the 25 evidence he wanted. But mainly he was more 55 1 interested on the lighter, I think. That's what 2 -- I remember that because I tell him, check 3 with the crime lab. 4 Q. Did he tell you why he was interested 5 in this case? 6 A. If I recall correctly, it's something 7 -- some kind of study or something about 8 cigarette lighters or something to that effect. 9 Q. Do you recall whether that was, say, in 10 the last two years or earlier than that? 11 A. I think it's in the last two years. 12 Q. What did you do to prepare yourself for 13 this deposition today? 14 A. I went over some of the reports. 15 Q. Did you talk with anyone about the 16 deposition? 17 A. To my supervisor. 18 Q. What was the substance of your 19 conversation with your supervisor about this 20 deposition? 21 A. I was talking to him about the incident 22 of the fire, about the -- some of the details, 23 because he just took over the division. The 24 previous supervisor is -- he went back to the 25 fire station. And I was touching base with him, 56 1 this is what I did; this is what they wanted me 2 to do; and this is what I'm going over at this 3 time. 4 Q. Did you meet with anyone else in 5 connection with your preparation for the 6 deposition today? 7 A. No. Other than my guys in the office, 8 no. 9 Q. You didn't talk to any outsiders, 10 anyone, say, attorneys in the case or anyone 11 else? 12 A. No. Other than -- when was it, last -- 13 I don't know, last year. We were in the process 14 of doing something like this and then just got 15 cancelled. 16 Q. Oh, right. All right. The deposition 17 was noticed sometime last year, and then it -- 18 A. Something like that. 19 Q. Do you subscribe to any journals 20 related to fire fighting or fire investigation? 21 A. Personally? 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. Or the office? Personally -- 24 Q. Well, personally, first. 25 A. No, sir. 57 1 Q. Does your office subscribe to any? 2 A. Yes, they do. 3 Q. Which ones? 4 A. The Texas -- I can't recall -- I cannot 5 recall the title. It's white cover with a red 6 and black letter, something of fire 7 investigators. 8 Q. Is it a monthly journal? 9 A. No. I think it's quarterly, like every 10 three or four months. 11 Q. How many investigations of car fires 12 have you conducted since you've been with the 13 Fort Worth Fire Department? 14 A. Wow, it's hundreds. It's too many. 15 Q. Now specifically related to car fires 16 as opposed to structure fires? 17 A. It's too many to mention. I mean, it's 18 over hundreds. I mean, you know, it's just too 19 many. 20 Q. Can you give an estimate of the number 21 or the percentage of car fires that you 22 investigate that are related to careless 23 smoking? 24 A. It's hard for me right now to kind of 25 remember those. 58 1 Q. When you are conducting a fire 2 investigation, do you have a standard procedure 3 or checklist that you follow? 4 A. We have a checklist, but it's -- you 5 know, you do -- so many times you know the 6 procedures already by memory more or less. You 7 know, you go from here -- the steps you have to 8 take to -- 9 Q. Do you have a written checklist of 10 things to look into when you're investigating a 11 fire; is that right? 12 A. It's like an S.O.P., it's just a 13 guideline. 14 Q. Do you have that with you? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Did you follow it when you were 17 conducting the investigation of this fire on 18 April 4th, 1992? 19 A. To the best of my recollection. 20 Q. I take it you were on duty as of the 21 evening of April 4th, 1992, right? 22 A. Yes, I was the on-duty investigator. 23 Q. What hours did you work that day? 24 A. From 7:00 in the morning to 7:00 in the 25 morning next day, 24 hours. 59 1 Q. So when this fire was called in at 2 18 -- 3 A. -- 29. 4 Q. -- 29, how long had you been on duty 5 then? 6 A. Since -- almost 11 hours or so. 7 Q. Did anyone travel with you to the fire 8 scene? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. When you got to the fire scene, were 11 there any police barriers up with the yellow 12 tape or anything around the fire scene? 13 A. I remember -- I recall seeing a yellow 14 tape. 15 Q. Were they up when you arrived? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Had the scene been secured by the 18 police department at that time? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Was the fire still in progress when you 21 arrived? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Do you know when the fire was knocked 24 down or put out? 25 A. No. 60 1 Q. I would like to refer to some fire 2 department records that we received in discovery 3 in this case. And they may be duplicative of 4 Exhibit 1, but what I have is the full set of 5 what we obtained, which is larger than 6 Exhibit 1. So what I'd like to do is mark, as 7 another exhibit, the records that I have. 8 (Vasquez Exhibit No. 27 was 9 marked for identification.) 10 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) I'll hand you what 11 has been marked as Vasquez Exhibit No. 27. Can 12 you identify what that is? I'm not talking 13 about just the first page, which is photocopies 14 of photographs, but I mean, the entire 15 document--the entire set of documents? 16 A. Yes. They appear to be some of the 17 pictures from the fire scene. 18 Q. Anything other than the pictures? 19 A. That one right there. What is that, a 20 fire -- and memos or letters to -- you know, 21 requests. 22 Q. Did these records come from your file, 23 which is here with you today? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Are there any pages in here that did 61 1 not come from your file? 2 A. I saw a memo -- I think -- just to 3 make sure. I think all appear like they came 4 from my file. 5 Q. This may be a harder question. Are 6 there any materials in your file that are not in 7 Exhibit No. 27? 8 A. I think everything is there. 9 Q. Is there anything in this exhibit that 10 you could refer to to identify what fire 11 departments -- fire department units arrived on 12 the scene when during this fire, something that 13 would say who was called when and when they 14 arrived and what they did? 15 A. Yes. If you would go back and check 16 the master list where the dispatch -- the 17 dispatcher, you should be able to tell who got 18 on first and then -- 19 Q. Is this what you're referring to? 20 A. That's it, yes. That's the copy. 21 Q. This exhibit has numbered pages that 22 are stamped along the bottom with a Bates number 23 stamper. And just for identification, this is 24 page No. 50 of the fire department records. 25 Referring to that document, if you need 62 1 to, Inspector Vasquez, what unit arrived on the 2 fire scene first? 3 A. The records shows or indicates the 4 Engine 25 at the same time with the incident 5 commander arrive on the scene -- you know, the 6 first units on the scene. 7 Q. Engine 25, I take it, is a fire engine? 8 A. The fire engine, yes. 9 Q. And what unit arrived after that or the 10 next one after that? 11 A. The next one after that, Quint is 12 another fire unit--that would be the next unit 13 on the scene. 14 Q. What is it called again? 15 A. Quint, Q-u-i-n-t, five functions. 16 Q. Was it Quint No. 9? 17 A. Yes. Did I say No. 9? Quint No. 9. 18 Q. What are the five functions of a Quint? 19 A. Water, ladder, hose, equipment to work, 20 and plus an aerial water tower. 21 Q. And what about the next one? I'm just 22 following along on page 50. 23 A. Yes. The next one would be 18:54, that 24 would be Engine No. 19. 25 Q. When you said 18:54, that's the time it 63 1 arrived? 2 A. The time it arrived on the scene. 3 Q. And the next one? 4 A. That would be the last truck. And then 5 you got the E.M.S. units, that's a supervisor 6 and a truck; utilities, like, a truck with 7 lights and fan, you know, just for lighting. 8 That's utility truck. 9 Q. I see that B.N. 3 appears to -- 10 A. Oh, no, correction. We need to go back 11 and correct that one. Because if 25 and 12 Battalion 4 arrive at 18:40, there's one, Engine 13 12, arrive 18:49 before Quint 9. 14 Q. I see. There's a column on this 15 document which lists the time that each unit 16 arrived on the scene -- 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. -- and it says that E12 arrived at 19 18:49 and E19 at 18:54? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do any of these unit designations refer 22 to you as the fire investigator? 23 A. I'm the one on the last -- on the 24 bottom page. Marshal 99, that's my unit. 25 Q. You arrived at 18:51? 64 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. That's 6:51 p.m.? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. Why was it that so many units were 5 called to this fire? It looks like three 6 engines and several other units. 7 A. It would be hard for me to speculate at 8 this point, but I can say that the first unit -- 9 just from my experience, the first Unit 25 is 10 going to be busy working on the victim. So 11 still you need another unit to support this unit 12 to extinguish the fire. And then you have a 13 helicopter coming, air ambulance, you have Care 14 Flight coming, so you need another unit to land 15 them--to make room to land this helicopter. 16 So that's the reason -- I mean, off the 17 top of my experience, I'm not talking about an 18 incident commander, but that's the way that 19 S.O.P.'s calls for. 20 Q. I think you said the first thing you 21 did when you arrived was look -- 22 A. Look for the man in the white shirt. 23 Q. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Not the first 24 thing you did when you arrived, the first thing 25 you did when you began to conduct your 65 1 investigation was to look under the hood of the 2 car? 3 A. No. Observe the whole picture of the 4 car, just look at the whole picture of the car. 5 And then, by looking at the car, you see from 6 the least damage to the worse. Then you look at 7 this right there, and then at that time -- I do 8 not recall if at that time is when I took some 9 pictures, but then I went inside -- you know, I 10 went and talked to the witnesses. 11 Q. You did at some point, then, look under 12 the hood? 13 A. Yes. I do not recall if the hood was 14 partially open or open, but I remember looking 15 at the hood, you know, just... 16 Q. Did you observe any fire damage inside 17 the engine compartment? 18 A. I do not recall seeing any. 19 Q. Was the battery cable cut? 20 A. Yes. I noticed it being cut, but 21 that's a normal procedure for firefighters to do 22 that. Every vehicle fire they have to cut the 23 wire. 24 Q. Why do they do that? 25 A. Safety precautions. 66 1 Q. What's unsafe about the battery being 2 connected on the car? 3 A. There's wreckers that sometimes the 4 short can cause the battery to explode, plus, 5 you know, it's just normal procedure just to cut 6 the power off the vehicle. 7 Q. If the engine were running and someone 8 cut the cables, would that cause the engine to 9 die? 10 A. That's a tough question for me. 11 Q. Someone had told you that the starter 12 or the alternator had been worked on recently; 13 is that what your testimony was? 14 A. That's -- to the best of my 15 recollection, I heard twice that they -- 16 something to that reference--alternator, 17 starter, something--but they had work on it 18 because it was -- they were having problems with 19 the vehicle. 20 Q. As you sit here now, do you recall 21 whether it was the alternator or the starter 22 that they were talking about? 23 A. It would be hard to remember. I mean, 24 you know, I don't recall. 25 Q. Do you have any notes in your file that 67 1 would help you recall whether it was the 2 alternator or the starter? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Could you tell whether the starter or 5 the alternator had been recently replaced or 6 worked on when you looked at the engine 7 compartment? 8 A. I couldn't tell. I could not tell if 9 it was one. 10 Q. Did you remove anything from under the 11 hood? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. How did you examine the electrical 14 system of the car? 15 A. Visually. The engine area I look for 16 damaged wires, overheated wires. Then I move on 17 to the dash area--look at the dash, look at some 18 of the wires that were, you know, over there. 19 And that's about it. Just trying to see if any 20 of the wires appeared to be damaged by 21 overheated or some of that nature. Just looking 22 at the wires. 23 Q. Did you remove the dashboard to look at 24 the wires behind the dash? 25 A. Oh, no, sir; no, sir. 68 1 Q. Did you physically remove any of the 2 wires from the dash area to inspect that? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. The process that you went through to 5 eliminate the electrical -- the possibility of 6 an electrical fault as the cause of this fire 7 was just by looking at the wires from where you 8 were standing outside the car? 9 A. You look at the -- the fire indicator's 10 going to be there. The fire is -- by reading 11 the fire language -- you read right there. You 12 look at your wires, you look at your damage, you 13 look at -- you connect -- you connect the 14 ignition source, you know, like looking at the 15 possibility of the dash being the one on fire. 16 It should be a different burn pattern coming 17 from there. 18 And then once I could not connect the 19 dash with the seat -- you know, being -- the 20 dash being the first one to catch on fire as the 21 possibility of the seat being the exposure, and 22 then you look at the point of origin. And right 23 there you connect the dash being the exposure. 24 Q. The dashboard was pretty badly burned, 25 wasn't it? 69 1 A. Yes, sir, it was damaged on top. 2 Q. And at least one witness, the one you 3 identified as Bud, had said that the fire 4 started in the dashboard, right? 5 A. He mentioned something to that. 6 Q. Don't you think it would have been a 7 good idea to investigate the wires behind the 8 dashboard to rule that out as a possible cause 9 of the fire? 10 A. After looking and observing and 11 inspecting just the wires right there, I didn't 12 see any fire coming from underneath the dash. 13 Q. What wires was it were that you 14 observed? Sorry, let me reask the question. 15 What wires did you observe in the dash 16 area? 17 A. If I recall correctly, it was a red 18 wire or a black wire like disconnected from any 19 source. It was just right there by the pedals 20 or by the bump on the vehicle near to the 21 carpet. 22 Q. Did you inspect the wires behind the 23 radio? 24 A. Oh, no, sir. 25 Q. Was the radio a factory radio or 70 1 something that had been added on after the 2 car was purchased? 3 A. I do not recall that one. 4 Q. Did you inspect the contents of the 5 glove compartment? 6 A. I didn't do that. 7 Q. Did you inspect the wiring behind the 8 glove compartment? 9 A. I didn't do that. 10 Q. Was there a map light on the dash of 11 this car? 12 A. I don't recall that. 13 Q. You didn't look at any of the wiring 14 behind the dashboard--left or right on the whole 15 dashboard? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Did you examine the fuel system? 18 A. The fuel? 19 Q. Fuel, gasoline. 20 A. On my visual inspection on the engine, 21 I look over when they raised the car. Yes, I 22 look over it. 23 Q. Were the doors of the car open or 24 closed during the fire, or could you tell from 25 your investigation? 71 1 A. The fire indicates that they were 2 closed. 3 Q. Did you observe smoke on the windows of 4 the car? 5 A. What was left of the glass, yes. 6 Q. What color was the smoke on the windows 7 of the car? 8 A. Black. Sort of like soot--black soot. 9 Q. Is there any significance to black soot 10 on the windows of the car? 11 A. In complete combustion the fire was 12 burning extremely at a rage. Or at one point it 13 burned for a little while without oxygen. And 14 once it reached oxygen, then it start flaming 15 again. 16 Heat -- again, to clarify the question, 17 the plastics -- the components of the vehicle 18 made out of plastic is going to release that 19 kind of black soot. 20 Q. Had the roof of the car sagged any 21 during the fire? 22 A. The metal part? 23 Q. Right. 24 A. I do not recall. I mean, you know, at 25 this time I do not recall. It got extremely 72 1 hot, but I don't recall any sagging. 2 Q. You talked about the paint being 3 completely burned on the top of the car in one 4 area. I think I'm describing it right -- it was 5 a question that Mr. Grisham gave you -- paint 6 was burnt completely off the top of the car; is 7 that right? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. And you said the significance of that 10 was that the fire burned longest there, right? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. It isn't necessarily true, though, that 13 that's where the fire -- that the fire started 14 under there; is that right? 15 A. That's an indicator that the base of 16 the fire was right there. 17 Q. Could it be that the fire started 18 somewhere else--someplace where there was fewer 19 combustibles--and then when it spread to the 20 seat area, it burned longer and hotter in the 21 seat area; is that a possible scenario? 22 A. That's a tough question. That's 23 possible, but not in this case. In this case, 24 you have to read the language--the burn 25 pattern--as what it's going to indicate you 73 1 where the point of origin was, and then where it 2 spreads. To answer your question, there's 3 time. So there's possibilities, yes, the 4 ignition source is here, but the amount of 5 combustible -- the fuel load is right here, and 6 it's going to cause that too. 7 Q. It's possible that fire can start in 8 one place, but you get longer and more intense 9 burning in another place? 10 A. That's possible, but not in this case. 11 Q. It is true that in a car, the seat area 12 is -- either in the front or the back would be 13 the area with the most fuel for combustion in 14 the compartment of a car; is that right? 15 A. Can you repeat that question again? 16 Q. Well, thinking about the interior 17 compartment of a car, there's different fuel 18 sources in there. Would you agree that the 19 seats probably provided the most fuel of 20 anything else inside the car compared to, say, 21 the dashboard or the walls, the doors, the 22 ceiling? 23 A. That depends. Sometimes the plastic 24 releases more -- burns hotter than the seat -- 25 the fabric on the seat. 74 1 Q. What about the foam on the seat? 2 A. That's true, too. Once -- it could be, 3 but the foam is -- yeah, you could say yes. 4 Q. Do you know whether the engine in the 5 car was running during the fire? 6 A. To the best of my recollection and 7 information that I gathered on the scene, it was 8 in the off position. It was off. 9 Q. The car was not running when you 10 arrived? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. How is it that you determined that the 13 car was not running when the fire started? 14 A. I didn't see any indicators that could 15 lead me to believe that the car was running. 16 Q. Did anyone tell you whether the car was 17 running? 18 A. Nobody told me the engine was running. 19 The first person--the mother--is the one that 20 says, I just got off, shut it off and got out of 21 the car. 22 Q. She told you that she shut it off? 23 A. (Witness nods head). 24 Q. Do you have any notes in your file that 25 indicate that she told you that? 75 1 A. No, I don't keep notes on that. 2 MR. MARKEY: I'm sorry, I didn't 3 hear that question. 4 MR. CRAMPTON: I asked if there 5 were any notes in the file that showed that the 6 mother had said the car was turned off. 7 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) Can you list for me 8 the items that you saw in the seat--in the front 9 seat area of the car--during your investigation? 10 A. To the best of my recollection, a pack 11 of Pampers--what appears to be Pampers--a brown 12 bag with whatever was left of some items, I 13 cannot recall. And if I recall correctly, what 14 appeared to be a burnt weenie, like a hot dog, 15 and what appears to be swell or damaged by the 16 water, a cigarette pack. What appears to be 17 damaged by the fire the remains of a cigarette 18 lighter. 19 Q. When you say "a cigarette lighter," do 20 you mean a butane lighter? 21 A. What appears to be a butane lighter. 22 Q. Did you know what kind of lighter it 23 was, what brand? 24 A. It would be hard to tell. It was sort 25 of like just the metal part, just the top of the 76 1 thing. 2 Q. And the cigarette pack, do you know 3 what kind of cigarette pack it was, that is, 4 hard pack, soft pack, box? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. But you do recall that it was red? 7 A. Somehow in my mind I picture like 8 something -- a remain of red stuff, but it would 9 be hard to me to speculate. 10 Q. Was it red and white? 11 A. Could be. 12 Q. It was your conclusion that the fire 13 started right there where the paper bag was in 14 the car; is that right? 15 A. On that -- yes, on that area. 16 Q. What was the first item ignited? 17 A. The brown bag. 18 Q. How do you know it was the brown bag? 19 A. Because this is where it was -- the 20 remains that were sitting right there, that was 21 where the point of origin appears to be. 22 Q. Was the seat around where the bag was 23 completely burned out? 24 A. It was not completely burned out. It 25 was burned, but it was just like a little -- how 77 1 can I say that? It was burned -- the fabric was 2 burned and the foam was a little deep seated 3 area right there. 4 Q. And the Pampers were half burned is 5 what you said; is that right? 6 A. Seemed like the Pampers -- if I recall 7 correctly, the Pampers were -- it would be safe 8 to say or fair to say that it was sort of like 9 halfway burned or no more than halfway burned. 10 Q. How hot did the fire get right there at 11 what you identified as the point of origin? 12 A. It got pretty hot. I mean, over 500 13 degrees, right there in that area. 14 Q. Some of the foam was burned; is that 15 right? 16 A. Some of the foam. 17 Q. At what temperature does the foam burn 18 -- does foam burn? 19 A. I could not tell you at this time. 20 Q. Did you see anything else in the front 21 seat of the car? 22 A. It was -- there was more combustibles, 23 but it's hard to tell what it was. 24 Q. Did you observe any matches in the car? 25 A. I do not recall that. 78 1 Q. How is it that you know that the -- 2 that the paper bag would have been the first 3 item ignited as opposed to anything else in the 4 car? 5 A. By looking at the evidence, looking 6 where it was left right there. If something was 7 right there right by the bag and -- the items 8 right next to the hot dog and whatever, right 9 there the paper bag is going to burn faster than 10 the seat. 11 So right there in that area that's -- 12 that's the most flammable stuff at this point 13 unless something fell right there in the area 14 reachable to her and, you know, everything right 15 there. That's right there is where my fire is 16 going to spread right there and the paper bag -- 17 anything made out of paper is the one that's 18 going to burn first. 19 Q. But how do you know that a cigarette 20 came in contact with the paper bag? 21 A. By interviewing her, by looking at the 22 evidence. She smokes and the possibility that 23 she never -- first, the contradiction of the 24 stories well, were you smoking; no, I never 25 smoke when I'm around my kid, except in the car 79 1 -- I mean, more or less in the car I never 2 smoke. 3 So I go -- I said, well, there's a 4 possibility that when you were in the process -- 5 let's say you're coming down the road driving, 6 in the process of -- you're going to approach 7 and make a turn to get into the driveway. At 8 that time you need both hands to steer with, 9 what happened to the cigarette? 10 That's when she looks and says, I don't 11 know, I don't know. I said, there's a 12 possibility that you put it back over here or 13 anything else, and that's when she said, I might 14 have done that. 15 Right there is my -- see, my problem 16 was I could not connect the ignition. I could 17 not find the ignition source at this time. I 18 knew and the fire was telling me exactly where 19 the point of origin was. So the only -- I had 20 -- the only logical explanation was that when 21 she said, I don't know. 22 Q. Nothing about what -- and the person 23 you're talking to when you're talking about 24 "she" told you -- 25 A. The driver. 80 1 Q. -- that's the driver, that's Ms. Moore? 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 Q. She didn't tell you that a cigarette 4 hit against a paper bag there, right? 5 A. No. 6 Q. That's your -- 7 A. That's my determination. 8 Q. -- speculation based on things you saw? 9 A. That's my determination based on my 10 fire burn pattern. 11 Q. Is it fair to say that cause and origin 12 investigation is in part a process of 13 elimination? 14 A. That's what I was doing, trying to 15 eliminate all the electrical sources that came 16 out, all the electrical problems that they point 17 out to me--eliminate all that and then -- 18 Q. What you did is you saw intense 19 burning, longer burning in the front seat of the 20 car in the passenger side, right? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And someone had told you that the case 23 -- that the fire may have started from an 24 electrical short in the dash? 25 A. And that's when I eliminate those 81 1 things. 2 Q. And you eliminated that. But to 3 eliminate that, what you did was you looked at 4 the wiring without actually taking the dash off 5 and looking at any wiring behind there, and you 6 didn't conduct any testing on the wires, right? 7 A. That's correct. But by reading the 8 fire, you can tell the fire was from the 9 exterior of the dashboard, not from the interior 10 -- coming out of the interior of the dashboard. 11 Q. What about the wires underneath the 12 dashboard? There were wires hanging down -- 13 A. It was clean. The carpet was clean 14 right there. There was no connection between 15 this portion over here -- the carpet is clean, 16 you can see this. Even the color, brownish, 17 redish maroon, whatever color, you can see the 18 color, and there's no damage. 19 So you cannot connect any arcing from 20 here to the top of the ceiling. 21 Q. Did something about the burn pattern 22 suggest to you that the fires came from outside 23 of the dashboard and not from inside the 24 dashboard? 25 A. All indicators at the point when I was 82 1 conducting my interview -- my investigation 2 indicates that the dash was an exposure on the 3 exterior. Not an interior fire, exterior fire. 4 Q. Do you have any photographs that would 5 show those burn patterns? 6 A. I don't know if there's -- 7 Q. We'll go into some photographs in a 8 little bit. I'll just pull out the ones that 9 we've got. 10 Do you -- is there any reason to 11 believe that if this fire were caused by a 12 cigarette, that it could have been ignited -- 13 that the first thing ignited could have been 14 something other than the paper bag? 15 A. If it could be -- like you said, it 16 could be anything else, It got to be right there 17 at the base of the paper bag anyway. Right 18 there in the point. It could not be anyplace 19 else, because the fire travels up. It don't 20 travels downwards. 21 Q. If the fire burned longest and hottest 22 at the point of the paper bag, how is it that 23 the paper survived the fire? 24 A. Just one of those things. 25 Q. At what temperature does paper burn? 83 1 A. It would be hard for me to tell you at 2 this time. 3 Q. I think just from the Ray Bradbury 4 (phonetics) book, it's Fahrenheit 451. Does 5 that sound right to you? 6 A. I would have to look into the reference 7 books. 8 Q. But at any rate, in your opinion, it 9 got hotter than 500 degrees at the point of that 10 seat during the fire? 11 A. At one point it got hotter, yes. 12 Q. Let's talk about the collection of the 13 evidence. Who actually did collect the evidence 14 at this fire? 15 A. The officer from the crime scene. 16 Q. Who was that? 17 A. I would have to look at -- Corporal, 18 initials T.D. 19 Q. T.D.? 20 A. Initials T., Tom, D. -- I'm going to 21 have to spell the last name, P-o-n-i-k-i-e-w-s-k-i. 22 How you pronounce that? 23 Q. How about Ponikiewski? 24 A. That sounds good to me. 25 Q. We'll use that. If it turns out it's 84 1 wrong, we'll have to change it. But it sounds 2 like Ponikiewski to me. 3 Is that all right with you? 4 A. Yeah, that sounds good. 5 Q. What was -- oh, gosh, what was her 6 title, was she Corporal? 7 A. Corporal. 8 Q. What was her function at the fire 9 scene? 10 A. Her function was to process the fire 11 scene also for any -- any indicator -- 12 indication of, you know, something out of the 13 ordinary, not just accidental fire. 14 You know, they have -- see, I can -- 15 I'm my own crime scene on fires, and I know what 16 I'm looking for. I know what kind of samples to 17 take -- you know, where and how to take 18 samples. 19 And at this point, she came to assist 20 me just in something that could be out of the 21 ordinary in this fire. 22 Q. Is she with the police department or 23 the fire department? 24 A. She's crime scene for P.D. 25 Q. Was she the crime scene officer that 85 1 you had requested? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Did you or she maintain a log of what 4 evidence was collected and where it came from? 5 A. She might -- she might done it. 6 Q. It seemed to me there was something 7 like that in the fire department records. 8 Looking at page 37 of Exhibit 27, can you 9 identify that? 10 A. Yes. This is going to be her report. 11 Q. Is it her evidence report? I'm reading 12 from the top of the page. 13 A. Her evidence report, yes. 14 Q. Just reading through this document 15 here, Inspector, it says that there was a -- 16 that the evidence was submitted by Corporal T.D. 17 Ponikiewski, 1965. Do you see that up here? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Say about the top quarter of the page? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you know who she submitted it to? 22 A. No, I wouldn't know. 23 Q. Oh, further down it says "received by" 24 and there's a colon, but it doesn't have a name 25 after that. Is that where it would have been 86 1 identified? 2 A. That's where the crime lab technician 3 signs his -- when he receives. 4 Q. Would there be another form of this 5 somewhere that would show that someone had 6 received it by signing there? 7 A. There should be another form when -- 8 similar to Lieutenant Young. Sort of like that 9 one right there (indicating) and maybe that's 10 what -- that's what you're looking for. 11 Q. What you're handing me is page -- which 12 is also found on page 10 of Exhibit 27. This 13 says submitted by Lieutenant Young, though? 14 A. Yes. And I wouldn't ask -- I wouldn't 15 -- I don't think I can answer that question. 16 Q. Okay. As you testified before, you 17 don't know what happened to it -- 18 A. Yeah. Because he was working at the 19 office at that time. 20 Q. Well, further down on this evidence 21 report, which is page 37 of Exhibit 27, it says 22 there's one roll color film containing 23 24 exposures? 24 A. Could be the pictures that she took. 25 Q. Pictures that -- 87 1 A. -- she took. 2 Q. -- that Corporal Ponikiewski took? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And you also took pictures? 5 A. I also took pictures. 6 Q. Now, under that where it says one roll 7 color film, it has a number of entries. You 8 see that -- can you identify what those are -- 9 where it says "one, hyphen, one RF passenger 10 seat"? 11 A. I think she's referring to picture 12 No. 1 from the rear front passenger seat, 13 picture No. 2 and so on and so on. 14 Q. If you could turn the page on that 15 exhibit to page 38. 16 VIDEOGRAPHER: I need to change 17 tapes. 18 MR. CRAMPTON: All right. We're 19 going to stop and change tapes. 20 MR. GRISHAM: Do you want to 21 break for lunch? 22 MR. CRAMPTON: Yeah. 23 (Lunch recess.) 24 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) Okay. Welcome back, 25 Inspector. You're still under oath. 88 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. When we left, we were talking about 3 Corporal Ponikiewski's evidence report in the -- 4 in Exhibit No. 27, which is open right now to 5 page 39. 6 A. Oh, excuse me. 7 Q. That's all right. Here's what you do. 8 There's page 1. And what we had was page 37, 9 was the one we were looking at before. And when 10 we left, we were just turning the page -- 11 actually, two pages to page 39. 12 A. 39. 13 Q. You see that -- 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. -- diagram? It looks like a diagram of 16 the car, sort of, sort of askew diagram of the 17 car. 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Can you identify that? 20 A. I think this was one done by Corporal, 21 and I think it's trying to depict the area where 22 the samples were taken. Correction, either 23 samples or photographs. 24 Q. Okay. Well, if you go back to page 37 25 and identify that there are -- there's one roll 89 1 of color film containing 24 exposures; you see 2 that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And then there are seven exhibits, or 5 what appears to be seven exhibits? 6 A. So that's what it might be too. 7 Q. Okay. So page 39 is the -- I guess not 8 exhibits, artifacts--is artifacts the proper 9 term? 10 A. Samples. 11 Q. Samples, okay. Can you identify where 12 the samples are identified or where they're 13 noted here on page 39, samples 1 through 7? Oh, 14 I see. No. 1 appears to be on the driver's door 15 toward the back of the passenger seat; is that 16 right? 17 A. Yes, that's correct. 18 Q. And then following around, we can see 19 where 2 was passenger seat, closer to the 20 middle? 21 A. Yeah, to the middle of the seat. 22 Q. Okay. And so these are where those 23 samples were taken. Can you -- do you know 24 which of the canisters contained the cigarette 25 pack that you found at the scene? 90 1 A. I don't recall which one was the one 2 that we put it in. 3 Q. Can you identify on this document where 4 the cigarette pack was when you first noticed 5 it? 6 A. No. 2. 7 Q. Here I can hand you a -- do you have a 8 pen? If you could just maybe put a "C" for 9 cigarette pack somewhere on there. 10 A. Yeah, right there. 11 Q. And you've placed it essentially right 12 next to the 2, where sample 2 was taken? 13 A. Oh, you want exact location, right? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Maybe in that area, if I can recall 16 correctly. 17 Q. Okay. And I guess we can do the same 18 thing with the remains of the butane lighter? 19 A. Right next to it, yeah, right there. 20 Q. Would you put your initials somewhere 21 near there just to show who wrote that on there? 22 A. (Witness complies). 23 Q. Thank you. So the cigarette pack and 24 the remains of the lighter were apparently on 25 the passenger's seat, right? 91 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. On the passenger's side of the seat; is 3 that correct? 4 A. The passenger's side of the seat, yes. 5 Q. Was it a bench seat? 6 A. I can't recall if it was a bench -- 7 just a solid -- what you're saying it's just 8 one? 9 Q. Yes, as opposed to bucket seats. 10 A. I cannot recall that. Could be -- the 11 best of my recollection, it was a bench. 12 Q. Okay. And the cigarettes and the 13 lighter were both found on the passenger's side 14 of that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you instruct Corporal Ponikiewski 17 to take the cigarettes and the lighter and keep 18 them as evidence? 19 A. Yes. I said, well, how about if we 20 would put those in a can with the samples. 21 Q. Did she just put them directly in the 22 can, or did she put them in a bag first? 23 A. Directly in the can. 24 Q. And your testimony is you -- well, do 25 you know whether those artifacts, those 92 1 samples--the cigarettes and the lighter--are 2 still in the cans? 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. Have you seen them since they were put 5 in the can? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Have you looked for them since they 8 were put in the can? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. What was it about the passenger side of 11 the seat that caused you to believe that the -- 12 that that was the point of origin? 13 A. The seat of the fire, the burn pattern 14 indicated that that was -- that was the lowest 15 point of origin. 16 Q. When you say "burn pattern," what, more 17 specifically, do you mean? 18 A. Burn pattern is the evidence that's 19 left after the fire burns. Because everywhere 20 where you see the fire, the fire leaves a little 21 "V" shape, you know, being the ignition source 22 right there, and indicates where the seed of the 23 fire was at that time and then how it spread 24 up. 25 You know, it's always like a -- it's 93 1 always -- that leads you to the point of origin, 2 the pattern the fire leaves. 3 Q. This car was extensively burned on the 4 inside; is that correct? 5 A. Yes, it was. 6 Q. When you have extensive burning in a 7 small area, such as the passenger compartment of 8 the car, don't you sometimes get places where 9 burning material will fall from one point to 10 another and begin burning there, sometimes even 11 lower than the actual point of origin? 12 A. Yes. That's what we refer to 13 drop-downs. And sometimes we see those -- those 14 burn patterns, but this is not the case. On 15 this type of fire it was not the case. 16 Q. How is it that you eliminated the 17 possibility that this might have been a 18 drop-down? 19 A. Because the way it burned, the way it 20 burned right there. 21 Q. Aren't the burn patterns from 22 drop-downs the same as burn patterns from actual 23 points of origin? 24 A. It can be the same. It can be the 25 same, but you have to read the fire. You have 94 1 to understand the dynamic of the fire, how the 2 fire is going to spread up. And if it's such a 3 thing like a drop-down, then you can -- you have 4 to look at the fire scene and look at it and 5 study it to the point where you can eliminate 6 those possibilities. 7 Q. How is it that you eliminated, in this 8 case, the possibility of a drop-down in this 9 fire? 10 A. Because the way it burned right there 11 between the -- on the combustibles, and the way 12 it burn on the top--the way it roll down back 13 into the backseat. So to me right there -- 14 there's nothing over here that could have catch 15 on fire and drop-down and set the paper brown -- 16 the bag on fire. 17 Q. But sometimes you get -- maybe 18 drop-down is not the right term I'm thinking 19 of. If you have an easily ignited 20 material--such as a paper bag in one area--and 21 you have a fire beginning somewhere else, can't 22 it easily spread to that bag? 23 A. It could easily. But where is the -- 24 and this is not the case because where is the 25 combustible? It's going to keep burning 95 1 something to drop down in the back. It's 2 another case in this -- 3 Q. Perhaps drop-down wasn't the term. I 4 was thinking of spreading and then becoming a 5 more serious fire there? 6 A. There's a possibility, but not in this 7 case. Because look at the fire, where was 8 another fire -- another fire load on the ceiling 9 that could -- let's say, for instance, you 10 referred a while ago to the dashboard. Well, 11 what could cause the fire on the dashboard to 12 keep burning and what is going to burn on top to 13 burn down to the combustibles on the seat. 14 So you have to read all those. You 15 have to eliminate all those before you get to 16 your conclusion. You have to look at all the 17 possibilities and eliminate those things and 18 say, okay, this -- here is what... 19 Q. So you eliminated the drop-down 20 portion -- 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. -- specifically because you didn't see 23 anything above that area that could have dropped 24 down? 25 A. Or nothing else that could have -- on 96 1 the dashboard that could have started the fire 2 or the back of the rear seat that could have 3 started the fire and spread from the rear to the 4 front. 5 Q. Did you look under the front seat? 6 A. I kind of glanced to, but I didn't -- 7 Q. Did you see any evidence of fire under 8 the seat? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Did you inspect any wires that might 11 have been under the seat? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Was it an electric seat? 14 A. I couldn't -- I -- 15 Q. Were the windows electric? 16 A. I couldn't answer that for sure. At 17 that time -- to clarify your question, at that 18 time I didn't look under the seat because the 19 fire did not came from underneath the seat -- 20 you understand, from underneath the seat to the 21 top. 22 Q. How long did it take you to reach your 23 conclusions in this case? 24 A. Oh, it's hard to say, 30, 40 minutes. 25 By the time you collect all the evidence, by the 97 1 time you collect all the information from people 2 around--witnesses--and by the time you look at 3 the fire evidence, yeah, probably. 4 Q. And you've described some of the 5 evidence that you relied upon to make your 6 conclusions. 7 Can you tell me now what other evidence 8 you relied upon to come to your conclusion in 9 this fire case? 10 A. The way -- the combustibles on the 11 seat, eliminating the possibility of an 12 electrical fire, eliminated the possibility of 13 something behind the dash coming out. I mean, 14 you know, causing the fire, interior fire. 15 The burn pattern over the dash was -- 16 indicated exterior, not interior. And the way 17 the burn pattern rolled to the back of the -- to 18 the backseat first impinge the ceiling -- I 19 mean, you know, the ceiling of the car and then 20 how it kind of spread behind the seat -- 21 Q. Did you -- 22 A. -- you know, just by concluding all 23 that. 24 Q. I'm sorry for interrupting. Okay. You 25 followed the burn patterns to what you concluded 98 1 was the point of origin? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Is that also called a hot spot? 4 A. I heard it before, but, yeah, it could 5 be considered that. 6 Q. You wouldn't use the term "hot spot"? 7 A. No. 8 Q. And you eliminated the possibility that 9 the fire began in the dash by looking at the 10 burn patterns on the dash? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. You did not inspect the wires anywhere 13 around the dash area? 14 A. That's the second time you mention 15 wires. The reason I didn't go into that -- I 16 mean, you know, that process is because once I 17 saw the exterior damage of the fire, after that 18 eliminated any connections that could have come 19 from any type of electrical fire underneath the 20 dash, on the floorboard and the carpet. 21 And then that's -- that's the reason I 22 didn't got into the dash. That's what I want to 23 clarify. I didn't go into the dash because the 24 dash -- the dash became exposure, not the origin 25 of the fire. 99 1 Q. I think what you're saying is, you 2 didn't inspect the dash any further -- 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. -- than you did because you had already 5 concluded that the fire began in the seat? 6 A. Because I was looking at the base. 7 Q. How is it that you eliminated the 8 possibility that the butane lighter was the 9 cause of the fire? 10 A. Because at that point -- at that time 11 and point, the lighter became part of the fire, 12 not the ignition of the fire, and the lighter 13 was not a -- you know, was not the ignition 14 source. It was not on the on position is what 15 I'm trying to get. 16 Q. You tested the -- you looked at the 17 lighter to determine whether it was in the on 18 position or the off position? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. So you don't know whether it was in the 21 on or the off position; is that right? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Have you ever heard of incidences where 24 butane lighters can malfunction and fail to turn 25 off after they have been used? 100 1 A. No, sir. I'm not aware of that, sir. 2 Q. Have you ever heard of incidences where 3 butane lighters can ignite and cause a fire 4 without being manipulated by a person at all? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. If you had heard about those--about 7 such a possibility--do you think you would want 8 to test the lighter for the possibility that the 9 lighter was the cause of the fire? 10 MR. GRISHAM: I object to the 11 form of the question in that it assumes that 12 possibility exists. You can answer the 13 question. I just made an objection for the 14 record. 15 A. It's a tough question to say. It would 16 be nice to know if that -- you put it that way. 17 My department is not going to go through that 18 probably because, you know, the department wants 19 -- they concluded whatever. They won't have -- 20 they don't have the means to do that. It would 21 cost a lot of money. 22 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) If you were to learn 23 that a cigarette lighter--a butane lighter--can 24 cause an accidental fire without being 25 manipulated by a person at all, either because 101 1 it turns off or because it lights on its own or 2 say in some other way, and you could not go 3 through the effort of testing to see whether the 4 cigarette lighter was the cause of the fire, 5 would you conclude that this fire might have 6 been caused by the cigarette lighter? 7 A. Gosh, that's a tough question. It's a 8 tough question because the percentage of 9 probabilities you're talking about. You're 10 speculating, you're trying to get an opinion 11 from me. As an opinion as just an investigator, 12 I could rely more on the human error in a 13 cigarette than the lighter due to the -- I'm 14 more exposed to cigarettes causing fires. And I 15 didn't know the lighter could cause -- you know, 16 the malfunction of the lighter. 17 So still as long as there's the 18 probability right there--the human error--I 19 could -- if you put me 50/50 and I have to make 20 a determination, I would say I go for the human 21 error. 22 Q. So that determination really isn't 23 based on any studies or testing that's been 24 done, correct? 25 A. No. 102 1 Q. And there is a possibility that because 2 the fire -- the lighter was right there at the 3 area of origin, that if a lighter could 4 accidentally cause a fire, it might have 5 happened that way, right? 6 A. It would be hard to make an opinion on 7 that in this particular case. You're trying to 8 get to this particular case. It's hard to say 9 because there's not a case on this case -- on 10 this incident. 11 Q. How is it that you believe this fire 12 began? Specifically, how did it happen? 13 A. Evidence--after looking at fire scene, 14 after collecting statements from the witness 15 versions, the only possibility -- the only way 16 that some ignition source could become in 17 contact with these combustibles is the 18 cigarette. 19 Because the fact that once she said I 20 don't know what happened to the cigarette that 21 she had -- because when we got to that point, 22 when was the last time you lit a cigarette? 23 Well, it was way after when I left the store or 24 whenever. I said, well, what happened, and 25 that's when she said -- when I put it in that -- 103 1 you know, when I said, well, can you be more 2 specific, you know. And that's when she said, I 3 don't know, that's probably -- it's possibility 4 there, yeah. 5 Q. Okay. She told you she didn't know 6 what happened to the cigarette, right; and 7 therefore, you concluded it must have been -- 8 A. No, no, no. Don't say that. When I 9 said, well, what do you think happened, there's 10 a possibility. And she said, yeah, it might. 11 It might have dropped down or it might -- I 12 don't know. 13 Q. Do you think she put the cigarette on 14 the seat? 15 A. I think that's -- logically, that's 16 what she did. She needed both hands to steer. 17 So the natural inclination, just put it right 18 there or look for the ashtray, put it right 19 there. And that's the only way you could have 20 ignition source right there. 21 Q. And that's -- and you reached that 22 conclusion because that's the only way this fire 23 could have started if it were a cigarette fire? 24 A. That's the only way. That's the only 25 way that fire could have started--there's not 104 1 any other way. 2 Q. When -- so in your analysis, the 3 cigarette came in contact with some combustible 4 there on the front seat? 5 A. Right there over the seat. 6 Q. And what then happened? What did the 7 cigarette do from that position? 8 A. Okay. The cigarette becomes in contact 9 with the paper bag and the combustibles around. 10 It smolders for a few minutes, finally ignites. 11 Q. How many minutes does it smolder? 12 A. It might take papers between 20, 30 13 minutes. It's going to burst in flames. 14 Q. After 20 or 30 minutes? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. Is there something that you learned in 17 your training that tells you that, or is that 18 based on some studies that you know about? 19 A. I read statistics books. I read books 20 about vehicle fires. I've read some of those 21 books. And just the time frame right there 22 indicates this is the case, give or take, 23 because being paper -- paper sack, give or take 24 minutes. Right there is where you got you -- 25 the ignition source comes in contact with the 105 1 paper, the paper is going to ignite quicker. 2 So right there is where you got your -- 3 you got your oxygen, you got your fire load, and 4 right there you have the fire. 5 Q. Now the paper is going to ignite 6 quicker you said. Quicker than what? 7 A. It should. Than the cover of the seat, 8 the fabric on the seat or -- you know, what I'm 9 saying, the paper -- comparing the paper and the 10 fabric on the seat, the paper is going to ignite 11 quicker than the fabric on the seat. 12 Q. During the time when the paper is 13 smoldering, is it also smoking? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. That smoke smell -- I mean, would 16 someone in the area smell that smoke--by area, I 17 mean, inside of the car? 18 A. They should be able to smell. 19 Q. Would the smoke be visible from outside 20 the car? 21 A. Depends on if the windows are open or 22 whatever. If anybody is watching the car -- I 23 don't know, it's hard to say. It should be able 24 to be noticeable. 25 Q. Do you know whether the windows were 106 1 open or closed in this car? 2 A. I cannot recall, but I think, looking 3 at the -- if I recall, glass indicates that the 4 windows were in the up position, so... 5 Q. So by your analysis, the cigarette 6 comes in contact with paper, causes the paper to 7 begin to smolder? 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. That smoldering goes on for 20 to 30 10 minutes, during which time it's smoking and that 11 smoke is visible? 12 A. Inside the car it should be. If 13 anybody's looking at the car, they should be 14 able to look. 15 Q. And then after 20 or 30 minutes, that 16 smoldering makes some sort of transition to a 17 flaming ignition, right? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. How long does it take to go from 20 flaming ignition to a fire that would be visible 21 from outside of the car? 22 A. It all depends when the smoke is going 23 to start coming out of the vehicle. 24 Q. Would the flames be visible from 25 outside the car at that point? 107 1 A. Should be able -- they should be 2 visible if somebody is looking at the vehicle. 3 Q. Then how long from the time the flaming 4 ignition begins until you get the kind of damage 5 you saw in this car? How long did the fire -- 6 A. Matter of minutes. Once the ceiling -- 7 once the inside of the -- those head gases 8 becomes, what, 1800, 1500 degrees inside, it 9 won't take no time on the flash-over. It won't 10 take no time because you're already -- 11 everything is already preheated. Those gases 12 there have been losed (sic) by the paper bag. 13 Those are going to be head gases where 14 you contain the heat inside so everything keeps 15 -- the temperature keeps raising and raising, 16 going up, up, up to the point when the flame 17 bursts, well, everything is just ready for the 18 flash-over. 19 Q. Do you believe flash-over occurred in 20 this fire? 21 A. Up to a point, yes. 22 Q. What do you mean by "up to a point"? 23 A. Because once the flames hit the 24 ceiling, it was easily -- everything just ignite 25 on the back of the seat, just rolled to the back 108 1 of the seat. 2 It was a high temperature. It's -- 3 flash-over is when something comes -- ignites 4 instantly, you know, once the temperature is 5 reached and it's there. What I'm saying -- let 6 me rephrase. Then if it's not up to some point, 7 maybe it was not a flash-over, just the ignition 8 temperature on the top, it was reaching that 9 point where just everything was ready to burn 10 quicker, faster. 11 Q. How do you determine whether a 12 flash-over occurred? 13 A. By looking at the damage in the vehicle 14 on whatever the fire occurred. 15 Q. Would it make a difference, in terms of 16 whether a flash-over occurred, if the windows 17 were open or closed? 18 A. Yeah, it could make a difference. 19 Q. Say the windows are closed, are you 20 more or less likely to get a flash-over? 21 A. Oh, gosh, you sent me back to the 22 books. If the -- let's say the windows were 23 up--everything is up--and all the heat is 24 concentrated and the head gas is going to be 25 controlling inside, right -- yeah, a flash-over 109 1 could occur inside the vehicle. 2 Q. And if the windows are down, do you 3 think, then, it's less likely that a flash-over 4 would occur? 5 A. Oh, yeah, less likely. Because then 6 you've got a free burning fire and faster at the 7 same time too. Because if it's free-burning, 8 you got oxygen, you got everything, and it just 9 keeps -- keeps burning. 10 Q. When you interviewed Shelly Moore, how 11 long did she say she was in the house? 12 A. She estimated between 10 and 15 13 minutes. 14 Q. Did you talk to anyone else about how 15 long Shelly Moore was inside the house? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Who else? 18 A. The young lady. 19 Q. Young lady? 20 A. I can look up. 21 Q. Do you know -- would it be Shawna, 22 Shawna Trotter maybe? 23 A. Yes. I think the last name -- yeah, 24 that's her. 25 Q. What did she say about how long Shelly 110 1 was in the house? 2 A. She said the same that -- she concur on 3 the time. Because I put her on the spot like 4 right now -- say, give me a time. She said, I 5 don't know. I said, well, give me a time, 5, 6 10, 15 minutes. I mean, you know, could you 7 estimate? Well, yeah, 10, 15 minutes. 8 Q. Well, how is it that this fire could 9 occur then in the 20 minutes -- in 20 to 30 10 minutes when Shelly Moore was only inside for 10 11 to 15? 12 A. Because she miscalculated. She might 13 be losing track of time. 14 Q. Do you -- 15 A. To me, if you ask my opinion, she was 16 there inside the house more than 30 minutes. 17 Q. And that's your opinion. Because if 18 she's right -- if Shelly Moore is right about 19 how long she was in the house and if Shawna 20 Trotter is right about how long she was in the 21 house, then this fire couldn't have started the 22 way you concluded it started, right? 23 A. Not necessarily because they wouldn't 24 see the smoke at that time like you said, and in 25 10, 15 minutes it wouldn't be that -- the fire 111 1 damage wouldn't be that far. 2 Q. So it couldn't have happened in 10 to 3 15 minutes, right? 4 A. Not this particular fire. It could not 5 happened in that short of time. 6 Q. Did you ever re-examine the car after 7 the initial investigation on the night of April 8 4th, 1992? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Did any of the witnesses suggest to you 11 that the fire was started by a fire bomb? 12 A. I heard some -- either a firefighter, 13 somebody in the crowd -- you know, when I go in 14 and out of the fire scene, you know, somebody 15 mentioned that it could be a fire bomb. 16 Q. Did Bud tell you that maybe? 17 A. It would be hard to say who mentioned 18 it. But I remember in my ways -- in those times 19 when I go in and out of the crime scene, 20 somebody mentioned that, yeah. 21 Q. Did you investigate whether it was 22 possible that this fire was started by a fire 23 bomb? 24 A. Of course. Of course. You don't make 25 that mistake. 112 1 Q. What was your conclusion -- what was 2 your conclusion as to whether it could have been 3 a fire bomb? 4 A. I didn't see any evidence of that. 5 Q. What evidence would you have needed to 6 see to conclude that it was a fire bomb? 7 A. Container, remains of container, 8 remains of whatever is left. Somebody -- 9 something should be there if it was a fire bomb. 10 Q. Now, you reached your conclusion, say, 11 in 40 minutes after your arrival on the scene, 12 right? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. And the lab report, I assume, was not 15 completed by that time, correct -- the lab 16 report on the evidence? 17 A. Oh, no. 18 Q. If the lab report had been positive for 19 accelerants, would you have reopened the 20 investigation? 21 A. Oh, that's for sure. But see, the 22 thing is, once you read the fire scene, you 23 eliminate those possibilities. You're talking 24 about fire bombs. The fire -- the fire burn 25 does not indicate flammable liquid. 113 1 When you throw a fire bomb, it's going 2 to be different -- different type of burn 3 pattern. Once -- like you said, if there's a 4 possibility -- there's a possibility the lab 5 said, okay, we found whatever, then you reopen 6 your case and you look what -- what you 7 overlook, what evidence could be still right 8 there. But I did not release the car at that 9 time. 10 I never leave the scene until I am 11 positive or as close as I can, to my education 12 and my knowledge, what could be there. 13 Q. You were comfortable this was not a 14 fire bomb in this case? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Okay. But certainly if there had been 17 accelerants found in the lab report, the 18 investigation would have been reopened? 19 A. I would go back and see what mistakes I 20 made, what I -- because as long as I'm 21 investigating fires, I'm going to make 22 mistakes. I'm going to overlook some things. 23 I'm going to -- and then that's the way you 24 learn by going back and tracing back what I 25 should look -- what I should check for. What 114 1 kind of questions should I ask next time to 2 correct my mistakes. 3 I make mistakes and I've done it before 4 and I will commit mistakes as long as I'm in 5 this position. 6 Q. Understood. And that's because it's 7 not an exact science, right? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Is it fair to say that when you conduct 10 an investigation like this, the primary goal is 11 to determine whether there was foul play 12 involved, whether it was an accidental fire or a 13 deliberate fire; is that fair? 14 A. Every fire I approach I'm looking for 15 the accidental cause. Once I don't see the 16 accidental cause, then I look for what you're 17 saying, any criminal activity involved. 18 Q. Did you ever see Shelly Moore again 19 after you interviewed her at the fire scene? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Did you ever take any formal statements 22 from any witnesses in this case? I'm sorry, 23 formal -- formal written statements where they 24 signed them? 25 A. Not me. Once I left the scene, other 115 1 officers took over. 2 Q. Do you know whether the police 3 department ever took formal statements? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you review those formal statements, 6 written statements? 7 A. I read them before, yes. 8 Q. You said that when Ms. Moore was 9 preparing to leave to go to Dallas from the fire 10 scene, you suggested that she should stay and 11 answer your questions, right? 12 A. I said I have a few more questions for 13 you to clarify -- I said I have a few more 14 questions because I need to clarify something, 15 you know, to be sure that's what I understood 16 that is what you said. And that's what I told 17 her. 18 Q. When you were -- when you were asking 19 those questions, were you -- do you feel that 20 you were functioning as a police officer or as a 21 fire investigator? The reason I'm asking is, 22 you said -- 23 A. Tough question. I'm both, so that's 24 the reason it's tough question. I don't know -- 25 Q. Well, the reason I was asking is you 116 1 had said, you can answer them now or you can 2 come downtown and answer them. And I was 3 wondering -- 4 A. Okay. I got to that point because I 5 felt like somebody was going to say, who are 6 you? And I think they asked me that question, 7 who are you? 8 And like I said, I should wear my 9 badge, I should wear my weapon, okay, but I 10 didn't do that. At this -- at this fire I don't 11 have my weapon on. So the person says, she 12 don't have to answer your questions no more. 13 And then I look -- and then I look to her, I 14 says -- you know, my problem was with her, okay 15 -- my conversation was with her. So I look at 16 the guy and says, either she ask me the question 17 -- answer these questions right now or we go 18 downtown. When I put that position -- when I 19 show my authority at that time, oh, okay, okay. 20 You see the point why -- it's not my personality 21 or it's not job to -- 22 Q. I understand. 23 A. You see what I mean? 24 Q. Sure, sure. You only wanted to show 25 that authority when you needed to? 117 1 A. If I can get the cooperation of the 2 person without telling them who I am, without 3 telling them that I'm a police officer, just a 4 firefighter trying to determine the cause of the 5 fire, that's fine. But then if you see yourself 6 and a need to escalate a little, then it's I'm a 7 police officer now. I would like to -- and if 8 that doesn't work, well, you escalate it to the 9 point where you need until you obtain your goal, 10 until you obtain your information that you want. 11 Q. Was Ms. Moore burned in the fire? Did 12 she have any burn injuries? 13 A. I didn't notice any on her. 14 Q. You've told us about interviews or 15 conversations you've had with Ms. Moore, a man 16 named Bud, Shawna Trotter, the officer in 17 charge, who is -- 18 A. -- Chief Miller. 19 Q. -- Chief Miller. Did you interview or 20 have conversations about the fire with anyone 21 else at the fire scene? 22 A. One of the E.M.S. personnel from the 23 fire department, the E.M.S. one or whatever his 24 title is. He's a person -- the liaison between 25 the ambulance service and the fire department. 118 1 So I asked the conditions of this -- you know, 2 the shape that she was -- 3 Q. Of the girl -- the little girl? 4 A. -- the girl. And that's the only thing 5 I asked was the severity of the injuries. I 6 just remember asking those questions. 7 Q. Did you talk with anyone else at the 8 fire scene? Well, I guess you talked with 9 Corporal Ponikiewski? 10 A. Yeah. Well, with her on the fire scene 11 and another two officers, but I don't recall the 12 names. 13 Q. Was one of them Officer Greer? 14 A. It rings a bell. Yeah, it could be 15 him. 16 Q. And you don't remember the name of the 17 other one? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you know Officer Carpenter, police 20 officer? 21 A. I spoke with him on the telephone, but 22 I never met him in person. 23 Q. Do you know whether he was at the 24 scene? 25 A. I never met him before. 119 1 Q. Do you know who extinguished the fire? 2 A. No, sir; no. 3 Q. When you were talking with Shelly 4 Moore, how did she appear to you to be reacting 5 to the fire? 6 A. Calm, not too excited. 7 Q. Did she seem to want to get out of 8 there? 9 A. I felt like she wanted to get out of 10 there after -- you know, I was asking many 11 questions and I got the feeling that she just 12 wanted to get out of there. But no, I think 13 that -- I don't know. The basic thing, she 14 wanted to follow-up the helicopter -- you know, 15 go to the hospital with the baby. 16 Q. Do you know why she didn't ride in the 17 helicopter with Shannon? 18 A. I don't know. I couldn't answer that 19 question. 20 Q. Could she have if she wanted to? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Do you know who called the fire 23 department to report the fire? 24 A. No, I don't know. 25 Q. I think what I'd like to do now is 120 1 identify some additional photographs--many of 2 which will be duplicates of the ones you've 3 already identified. 4 What we've done is taken the 5 photographs that we obtained from the fire 6 department, which I believe and can represent to 7 you are the photographs that you took and the 8 photographs that Corporal Ponikiewski took, and 9 we had them blown up larger. And that's what 10 I've got with me. 11 I'd like to have them marked, perhaps 12 it would be easiest to mark them as a lump. 13 They are all numbered in the order they were 14 numbered by the fire department. So maybe just 15 have them lumped as one exhibit and we can refer 16 to them as exhibit whatever, photo number 17 whatever. 18 MR. CRAMPTON: Can we have these 19 marked, please. 20 (Vasquez Exhibit Nos. 28 and 29 21 were marked for identification.) 22 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) I'm handing you now, 23 Inspector, what's been marked as Vasquez Exhibit 24 No. 28. Can you identify -- you can go ahead 25 and look through more of them -- can you 121 1 identify whether those are the pictures that you 2 took on the night of the fire? 3 It may be that you can't identify which 4 ones you took and which ones that Officer -- or 5 Corporal Ponikiewski took. I'm just curious, if 6 you could do that. 7 A. All these pictures looks like the ones 8 I took. 9 Q. Can you identify in those pictures 10 which ones show the point of origin of this 11 fire? 12 A. That one right there, and then this one 13 right here. 14 Q. You have identified photos 3, 2, and 21 15 from Vasquez Exhibit 28. Beginning with No. 3, 16 can you tell me what about this photograph shows 17 the origin -- 18 A. The photograph I was looking at -- at 19 the damage right here (indicating) and showing 20 my point of origin being in this area. On this 21 one here, I'm a little closer to the point -- 22 Q. I'm sorry. I'd like to just stick with 23 one and then, you know, go ahead -- and I'm 24 sorry to -- I don't mean to get ahead. 25 The point of origin you're identifying 122 1 here is 2 essentially -- 3 A. Some point on this area right here. 4 Q. Is this the passenger side, or is this 5 the driver's side of that seat? 6 A. It's sort of like the passenger's 7 side. This is the driver's side, passenger 8 side. 9 Q. What you're pointing at -- to try to 10 identify it for the record, is there is sort of 11 a U-shaped area of white. Can you identify what 12 that is in there? 13 A. What appears to be Pampers. 14 Q. Okay. And that's on the front seat? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Okay. And the area you're talking 17 about as the point of origin is below that on 18 the picture where it appears to be gold in 19 color; is that right? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. And your testimony is that that is the 22 passenger side of this seat -- of the driver's 23 seat -- of the front seat, sorry? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. Now, can you tell from this whether 123 1 it's a bench seat or not? 2 A. No, I can't tell. 3 Q. Well, it's not bucket seats, is it? 4 A. No. 5 Q. They might be two that are next to each 6 other? 7 A. Yeah. Next to each other, but not a 8 bucket seat. Just two, so it can slide back and 9 forth. 10 Q. What else in this picture is 11 significant in terms of your cause and origin 12 investigation? 13 A. My cause and origin, right there. 14 You're looking at the base of the fire. Then if 15 you have the option -- if you look -- I mean, if 16 you have a chance, you look at how the fire sets 17 right there. That's the seat of the fire right 18 there. 19 You can eliminate -- this wire was part 20 of the door frame and you can eliminate any 21 lower ignition source right there. You know, 22 and damage you stay right here, and then you're 23 looking at the ceiling of the vehicle right 24 there. So this is your main part of the fire 25 right here. That's -- whatever it was, right 124 1 here was burning. 2 Q. By "right here," you're pointing to the 3 gold area? 4 A. Whatever was there. 5 Q. All right. Is it possible to -- I 6 would like if you could -- 7 MR. CRAMPTON: Should he just 8 hold it up? 9 VIDEOGRAPHER: Yes. 10 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) If you could hold 11 this up for the camera and point with your 12 finger where the point of origin is that you're 13 talking about. 14 A. This is the point of origin that I was 15 indicating right over here in this area where 16 the gold spot is going to be -- gold-colored 17 spot is going to be. It's right there. That's 18 where my deepest seated of the fire was. 19 Q. And can you identify the Pampers on 20 there too? 21 A. Yeah. This whitish kind of C-shape 22 used to be a pack of Pampers. 23 Q. Do -- is the paper bag shown anywhere 24 on that photograph? 25 A. I cannot recall at this time. I don't 125 1 see it, but it's a bad picture. 2 Q. Is there -- it looks as though there 3 was some burning toward the floor of the front 4 seat area. Do you see that there in front? 5 A. Right over here? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. This one is what we refer probably as 8 drop-down, or whatever it was, it just drop-down 9 and burned in that area. 10 Q. Do you know where -- from where it 11 would have dropped? 12 A. The plastic on the door. The doors and 13 the ceiling are, what you call that, finish 14 inside the car is made out of plastic and 15 normally that thing drips down and burns right 16 over here along this area. 17 Q. In the -- you know, there's a hump 18 between the two front seats in there? 19 A. About right over here? 20 Q. Yes. Is there burning on the floor 21 there? 22 A. There's some, yes. 23 Q. Is that also a drop-down? 24 A. It's a drop-down from the dash dropping 25 down over here. 126 1 Q. Do you know what was directly above 2 that area on the dashboard? 3 A. On this area right here? 4 Q. Yes. Well, directly above the hump 5 where the burn down -- 6 A. Right over here? 7 Q. -- or the drop-down was, yes. Was it 8 the radio, perhaps, or the heater or dash light 9 or anything like that? You don't know? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. That's okay. Now, let's look at 12 No. 2. Can you just begin to sort of orient us 13 on that picture--what that is? 14 A. This one is close to the -- 15 Q. Maybe it's best to go ahead -- 16 A. This one is this area somewhere around 17 here, okay. It's depiction of this area where 18 the gold or yellow color is. Right there I was 19 just depicting the seat of the fire. 20 And wherever something was on this area 21 that could have been removed when they -- you 22 know, they wash down with the fire hose and some 23 remains of what appears to be a cigarette and -- 24 oh, gosh it's hard to tell, but I remember 25 seeing a metal piece of a lighter--remains of a 127 1 lighter, cigarette lighter. And this one it was 2 just to show that something was set right in 3 this area burning. 4 Q. Had the sample -- had a sample already 5 been taken from that area there? 6 A. I can't remember. 7 Q. Can you tell from looking at the 8 photograph whether it is? 9 A. Looks that way. If you're looking at 10 this spot missing. 11 Q. Can you -- incidentally, I'm not sure 12 if we said it. This is picture No. 2 in Vasquez 13 28. You said that there was the remains of a 14 cigarette in that photograph. Where is that? 15 A. Somewhere in this area. 16 Q. Can you see it in the photograph, or 17 are you just recalling that it was there? 18 A. I just recall seeing it there. 19 Q. What about the pack of cigarettes, are 20 they shown anywhere in there? 21 A. That's what it appears to be. 22 Q. What about that red -- sort of red area 23 up and to the left of where you're looking at 24 there -- the other way. That way, right there. 25 A. I can't remember that. 128 1 Q. Okay. Where was the top of the 2 lighter? 3 A. To the best of my recollection, in this 4 area somewhere right here. 5 Q. All right. Can you see it in there? 6 A. It's hard to tell. No, it's hard to 7 tell. There's something over there, but I don't 8 know what it is. 9 Q. If we could hold this up again. The 10 area where you said looked like the cigarette, 11 which is right -- yeah, that. Okay, that's it 12 right there, that red field right there. Is 13 that the area that you believe is the cigarette 14 pack? 15 A. It might be. But I was more like 16 inclining on this area. 17 Q. When you look at that, doesn't that 18 look like foam there? 19 A. This right here? 20 Q. Yeah. 21 A. It looks more like a cigarette that 22 swells when it gets wet. 23 Q. Oh, an actual cigarette? 24 A. Actual cigarette. 25 Q. Oh, I thought you were talking about a 129 1 pack. 2 A. A full-size cigarette. 3 Q. All right. May I see that? 4 A. Because I remember seeing that. If 5 it's not in the picture, it's because I never 6 took a correct picture. But it was a package 7 with remains of cigarettes in it, and they were 8 swelled. 9 Q. Do you believe that the cigarette that 10 you saw here would have been the same cigarette 11 that caused the fire? 12 A. Oh, no, no. Yeah, I know what you're 13 leading to. No, no. 14 Q. Okay. And then this is picture No. 21? 15 A. On this picture, reading the fire, okay 16 -- reading the fire, the burn pattern, you can 17 tell that the hottest part was around this area 18 -- around this area. Look at -- compare this 19 side of the vehicle with this one. It was hot, 20 but not as hot as this one. This one it got hot 21 enough to where it burnt the surface -- I mean, 22 you know, the finish. 23 So that's a good indicator that you 24 base of your fire is going to be at the bottom. 25 Just look directly to the bottom is where your 130 1 fire is going to be. 2 Q. If the window was open on the 3 passenger's side but not on the driver's side, 4 wouldn't you expect the fire to go that 5 direction more, even if it started, say, toward 6 the middle? 7 A. That's a possibility. 8 Q. You would expect to see burns like that 9 coming -- because the fire would be going out 10 the window? 11 A. Because you would think it's going to 12 ventilate this way is what you're talking 13 about. 14 Q. Right. And so if that were the case, 15 it wouldn't necessarily mean that the fire 16 started below that discolored area there, 17 correct? 18 A. Then you have to place the fuel load 19 where the fire is burning at. Because if it 20 would be on this side on the driver's side, yes, 21 it would be some, but more towards this side. 22 See, the burn pattern is going to be -- 23 is going to indicate where your fuel load is 24 going to be. So you never go wrong on that one 25 just by following your burn pattern, finding 131 1 your fuel load on the bottom; and then, yes, 2 that's a possibility it was ventilating that 3 way. Yes, that's the reason you got your 4 pronouns (phonetics). 5 Q. Okay. I noticed that the -- is this 6 the baby seat in the car there? 7 A. It appears to be the baby seat. 8 Q. Did you put the baby seat back in the 9 car? 10 A. I don't recall doing that. I remember 11 seeing -- I remember seeing it on the floor is 12 the only -- that's what I remember. When I got 13 to the fire scene, the seat was on the floor 14 outside. 15 Q. On the ground outside? 16 A. On the ground, yes. 17 Q. All right. Somehow it apparently got 18 back in, or is that -- maybe that isn't the car 19 seat? 20 A. Good question. 21 Q. What were the condition of the seatbelt 22 buckles on the front seat when you conducted 23 your -- 24 A. Good question. I never looked at the 25 seatbelts. 132 1 Q. Can you identify photographs in here 2 that show the burn patterns that you used to 3 eliminate the possibility that this was an 4 electrical fire in the dash? 5 A. Correction. This one was not 6 electrical fire, right; that's what you said? 7 Q. I tried to ask the burn patterns -- the 8 photographs that show the burn patterns that you 9 used to come to the conclusion that an 10 electrical fire -- that this was not an 11 electrical fire? 12 A. Yeah, something like that. Similar to 13 that, okay. There is one--maybe not the 14 best--but there's one. You said that the fire 15 started under -- on the dash. When you're 16 looking at those things, if the fire would have 17 started in the dashboard, some of this would be 18 burned right over here (indicating), plus some 19 of this would have been damaged. 20 And, you know, as far as you can tell, 21 some wires were sticking -- it's the red wire 22 somewhere over here -- you don't see no 23 connections to that. So you eliminate all these 24 things. And to say that the fire was internally 25 coming out -- and if we can find another -- a 133 1 better 2 picture -- 3 Q. I'm sorry, before you go any further, 4 this was picture No. 7. 5 A. Here's another one. Picture No. 13 is 6 going to indicate you -- you see, you're looking 7 at your dash, you're looking at your fire coming 8 from this -- there's your brake pedal and 9 whatever, there's your red wire. I remember 10 seeing that red wire -- look at this. 11 Okay. You're looking at your 12 dashboard. This indicator -- look at your 13 fire. Your fire is burning right in here. 14 Look, your heat has damaged the glove 15 compartment. 16 So that's the reason I didn't have to 17 go into the glove compartment because right away 18 you can eliminate the glove compartment as being 19 exposed to the fire from the outside, not 20 internally. 21 Q. Did you look inside of the glove 22 compartment? 23 A. No, I never looked inside. And then 24 looking at this, does this look like internal 25 dashboard -- internal dashboard fire to you, no, 134 1 sir. That's -- of course, right there your fire 2 is telling you exactly this fire was rolling 3 over here and was hitting the dashboard as 4 opposed to what you're tying to say that the 5 fire was coming from inside. That's not the 6 case. 7 Q. Actually, I'm not trying to say -- 8 A. Well, you implied a couple of times. I 9 think that's going to be your best picture to 10 depict the fire -- the base of the fire. Right 11 there is when -- when you read the language of 12 the fire -- see, my job is trying to tell you 13 exactly how the fire is started, where it 14 started and why I limit -- I use burn patterns. 15 That's the reason when you're trying to play 16 words with me, you can cannot play those things 17 because, look, your fire keeps talking, your 18 fire talks. 19 If this internal fire, why this thing 20 is burned, why is it burned like that? No. 21 Look at the damage. Look at your pattern right 22 here. It's telling you that the fire has been 23 burning from outside. Right here (indicating). 24 If I put a lighter right over here -- 25 if I put a lighter right over here, is this 135 1 thing going to bulge this way, no, sir. It's 2 going to bulge that way. 3 Q. Okay. We don't have a question pending 4 right now. 5 A. Oh, okay. 6 MR. CRAMPTON: I want to object 7 to all of -- 8 A. Well, I try to -- my job is trying to 9 educate you about fire. This is what I do for a 10 living, and that's -- and when you try to put 11 tricky questions to me, no, sir. I know how to 12 read a fire. I might make mistakes, I will make 13 mistakes, but this is not the case of one of 14 them. 15 MR. CRAMPTON: I want to object 16 to the narrative that came when there was no 17 question pending during this time. 18 A. Seems like the more I answer your 19 question and I kind of -- seem like I'm giving 20 you the doubt that I don't know what I'm doing. 21 I'm telling you, I know what I'm doing and this 22 is -- unless -- if somebody else comes and show 23 me the opposite and then I say, I shouldn't 24 overlooked that and I learn from those and then 25 I become a better investigator. 136 1 MR. CRAMPTON: We still don't 2 have a question pending, and I still object to 3 the narrative. 4 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) when you're looking 5 at this picture, which is No. 13, it doesn't 6 really show the sort of the dash behind the 7 instrument area, right? 8 A. The instrument area is going to be -- 9 yes, that's true, it's not a good picture. I 10 have to agree on that, that's not the best 11 picture, okay. It's not the best picture, but 12 if we find a picture and if I took a picture 13 from top, you will see the same damage. 14 Q. Looking at this picture again, and 15 maybe we don't need to hold it up -- there's the 16 hump between the two seats in there. This shows 17 some burning here, too, on that hump area. And 18 your opinion is that that is a drop-down? 19 A. It could be drop-down. It could be the 20 same fire. But you see, if it would be fire 21 coming from there, all this would be totally 22 burned. 23 Q. If the fire begins in the seats and 24 moves up and around the way you've described, 25 would there be -- would the back side of the 137 1 steering wheel be protected from the fire or the 2 back side of the steering column? 3 A. Well, that depends. If it's impinged 4 by flames, probably it's going to be damaged in 5 the back. But the severe damage is going to be 6 from where the fire is going to be heating right 7 -- see, if I'm heating the fire over here, 8 well, this one is going to be damaged. 9 It depends on the heat and everything 10 -- the environment. Yes, this one, it could be 11 damaged too. But from here, I can tell you 12 exactly the direction of the fire. 13 Q. Well, what we would expect, then, is 14 the bottom side of the steering column would be 15 burned worse than the top side; is that right? 16 A. If the fire is coming from the bottom, 17 yes. 18 Q. From where the seat is. And the seat 19 is underneath the steering wheel? 20 A. Yeah, it should, it should. 21 Q. And the same would be true with the 22 steering wheel? 23 A. It should, yes. 24 Q. We have the other set of photographs, 25 which is Exhibit Vasquez 29. Can you identify 138 1 those? 2 A. I guess I'm going to have to learn to 3 stay out of the picture. 4 Q. Are you in that picture? Which one is 5 that? 6 A. My back, my best side. 7 Q. No. 5. Incidentally, on No. 5, who is 8 the other fellow there that you're talking to? 9 A. I cannot recall his name. 10 (Discussion off the record.) 11 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) Can you identify 12 this set of photographs as those taken by 13 Corporal Ponikiewski? 14 A. Yeah, I think so. I think she took 15 these ones. I think the others was taken by 16 somebody else because these are better pictures, 17 for one thing. 18 Q. Do these photographs fairly and 19 accurately represent the scene of the fire at 20 the time when you were conducting your 21 investigation? 22 A. Yes, yes. 23 Q. Okay. Why don't we go to these ones 24 that you've selected. This is Exhibit No. 29, 25 photograph No. 16. What is the significance in 139 1 that? 2 A. Okay. While ago you asked the question 3 why I eliminate the dashboard to be internal 4 dashboard. You see, once a fire start hitting, 5 impinging on the top, you can see how much 6 damage you got underneath. Opposed to that, if 7 we would be the contrary to this, it would be 8 different burn pattern from underneath. From 9 underneath the dashboard, it would be the 10 internal fire from underneath. Over here all 11 you see is exposures. 12 Q. What you're pointing at in this picture 13 No. 16 is burn damage on the top of the dash? 14 A. Uh-huh. And your steering wheel, what 15 you was asking me about the steering wheel right 16 there. 17 Q. The steering wheel appears to be burned 18 -- 19 A. Yeah. Because the fire is going to go 20 up, and then it's just going to back down, back 21 down. And that's the reason, you know, you're 22 going to see that damage. 23 Q. If a fire began somewhere in the middle 24 of the dashboard area, behind the radio or 25 behind some other instrument in the dashboard, 140 1 wouldn't you expect to see burning along top of 2 the dash? 3 A. If the fire breaks up, yes, up to a 4 point. But the dashboard is going to look 5 different, like, sunk in -- you know, it's like 6 a vacuum sort of thing. It's total different 7 pattern, it's total different burn pattern. 8 Q. Looking at this, does, say, the fact 9 that the visors are burned or any other burn 10 damage in here suggest to you that there may 11 have been a flash-over? 12 A. Well, it's kind of hard. As far as you 13 can tell is the heat was intense and high. And 14 a flash-over could occur -- you know, there's 15 terminology sometimes I don't like to use 16 because you see -- you still see some of the 17 remains red. And a flash-over is when the total 18 surface of the room, or wherever you are, is 19 just totally -- is to the ignition temperature. 20 It reaches the ignition temperature where it 21 just catches on fire. 22 Q. This windshield is obviously broken? 23 A. Yes, it broke. And you can tell the 24 difference -- you can tell that something was 25 protected over here. That could be that that 141 1 was -- this one here (indicating). That's the 2 one that was setting right there, your Pampers. 3 You see you protected areas. That's 4 the reason you concluded -- by looking at this, 5 you conclude your "V" pattern is directing 6 somewhere around here. It's directing somewhere 7 over here. Over here was nothing, just open for 8 the driver to sit on it. That's your visor 9 deal. And right there you indicate your fire is 10 somewhere over here on the seat. And look how 11 this one was protected. 12 It would take a little longer to 13 discover the fire. It would delay the 14 discovery. It gets to the point where this one 15 is going to be even. And that's when you 16 totally have a damage. And then right there is 17 that's when your job really starts, right there 18 when you don't have nothing to start with. 19 Q. What you've identified -- you were 20 talking about the "V" pattern, and maybe it's 21 best to make it clear. If you could just show 22 for the camera the "V" pattern that you're 23 talking about in the passenger seat. 24 A. See, like I was saying, look at this. 25 You're looking at your protected area and then 142 1 you're looking at how the fire was started over 2 here. It keeps spreading, it spreads up, it 3 spreads this way. And look right here. Here's 4 your "V" pattern heading this way, okay. 5 And then maybe the one on the dashboard 6 that I was showing you a while ago, that's the 7 reason your glove compartment, the front of the 8 dashboard is because -- is another "V" pattern 9 coming this way. Where over here your "V" 10 pattern is going this way and is burning and 11 burning. And finally, right there is where your 12 protected area is going to be. 13 And right there is where you study. 14 That's what you look. You got your fire right 15 here. You look at your base of the fire right 16 there. And then you see your protected area, so 17 that's indicating you to the point of origin. 18 Q. When you were describing the "V" 19 pattern there, especially that on the left side, 20 you're also referring to protected area -- I'm 21 sorry -- on the left side as we look at it. 22 A. This, your protected area, is that 23 something that was there keeping the fire from 24 getting right there up to this point. If it 25 gets to the point where this one burns, it's 143 1 going to drop down, and then this one is already 2 hot, so it starts burning also. And then your 3 "V" pattern is going to be more level than it 4 is right now at this point. 5 Q. What your testimony is is that the 6 combustible materials that are on the left side 7 in the passenger seat closest to the point of 8 origin are less burned than the areas on the 9 driver's side because of some protected 10 materials in there that protect them; is that 11 right? 12 A. Yeah. It would be fair to say that 13 this was standing -- sitting right there leaning 14 against the seat, okay. It's leaning against 15 the seat. For whatever the reason is on the -- 16 it's laying over there. Okay. So your fire is 17 burning. 18 And that's the reason the package was 19 sort of like damaged just on this side. So you 20 can see the fire was low over here and it was 21 burning and burning this thing over here. And 22 that's the reason you get this protected area 23 and then this one over here. You see how level 24 it is because there was nothing over here. You 25 see how it goes this way. And you see your fire 144 1 going up. 2 Q. Well, I guess my question is, is this 3 protected area that you identified on here, the 4 "V" pattern is because it's protected, not 5 because the point of origin is next to it, 6 correctly -- correct? 7 A. Well, even if that thing was not there, 8 still the "V" pattern is going to indicate -- 9 the fire is like a funnel--it's just like a 10 funnel. At the bottom is narrow, and then the 11 more it spreads up, it's going to spread up, and 12 that's what you read. That's the reason -- when 13 you study -- when you looking at your fire 14 scene, you're looking at the whole picture--the 15 big picture--not just right there. You have to 16 be able to explain, to articulate how you got 17 all these burnings. So to me, here's my funnel, 18 it's going down right here. 19 Q. Okay. The reason that the protected 20 area there--the place where the material that 21 covers the seats is not burned--the reason for 22 that is it was protected by something that was 23 sitting on the seat, correct? 24 A. Something was sitting on the seat. 25 Q. You also identified photograph No. 24. 145 1 What does that depict? 2 A. That depicts the point of origin. And 3 here is our -- again, our Pampers. And this one 4 depicts, you know, some of the things there I 5 thought it was -- I thought that's what I saw. 6 Maybe because I was -- 7 Q. What is that that you're pointing to? 8 A. It looks like a chili dog, so weenies. 9 So that's where it is. 10 So right here you're looking at the 11 base of the fire. You're looking -- look at the 12 damage over here and look over here. So this 13 indicates once you see the whole picture, then 14 you keep coming over here. 15 What could be right in here that caused 16 that fire? See, that's what -- that's -- when 17 you look at the whole picture and at the damage 18 on the vehicle, you indicators always going to 19 be coming to the point of origin. 20 Q. And picture No. 20? 21 A. Okay. Here we go again. You see, look 22 at the fire. Let's say with all the 23 combustibles we have over here, whatever it 24 was--the brown bag and the grocery sack and 25 everything--is right in here, right? Okay. So 146 1 our fire is burning. It goes up, fills with 2 smoke -- has smoke, but our flames -- see, the 3 heat -- our flames were closer to this area. 4 And right over here you see the dash is 5 damaged by the exterior. The flames are 6 impinging these things. The flames are not 7 coming from inside the dashboard. That's -- and 8 look over here, look over here how this area is 9 not damaged. So right here is your "V" pattern 10 that we keep talking about. Our "V" pattern 11 just coming right over here is even with this 12 one. 13 What it means, the fire -- the flames 14 were or the heat level was right in here in this 15 area--the most intense heat. That's the reason 16 you got that damage. And that damage always is 17 going to indicate you if the fire was internally 18 or externally. 19 MR. GRISHAM: While I'm thinking 20 about it, I'd like to have laser prints of all 21 photographs made if we could for the deposition. 22 (Discussion off the record.) 23 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) While we're looking 24 at photos, I'd like to -- there was a couple of 25 things I noted in these photos that were 147 1 introduced by Mr. Grisham, I believe No. 8. 2 I notice that it's dark in all these 3 photographs. Was it dark outside while you were 4 conducting your investigation? 5 A. It was dark, yes. Well, let me put it 6 -- when I got there, it was still daylight, but 7 then soon got dark. 8 Q. This is Exhibit No. 8, which is a 9 photograph, and you identified that as the car 10 in question? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. How is it that you know that that is 13 this car and not some other car that's had burn 14 damage? 15 A. It looks the same color. It has the 16 same burn patterns. 17 Q. Okay. I'm not suggesting it's not. 18 I'm just -- 19 A. I mean, you know, the burn patterns -- 20 you know, some of the things that I saw. I 21 recognize the vehicle. 22 Q. This doesn't appear -- it doesn't 23 appear that the car is in the same location? 24 A. No. It was taken to the city auto 25 pound. I recognize the rest of the vehicles. I 148 1 spend most of the time there. 2 Q. So this was taken at the City auto 3 pound? 4 A. Auto pound, yes. 5 Q. Do you know when this was taken? 6 A. I don't have any idea. 7 Q. Do you know who took it? 8 A. I don't have any idea. 9 Q. That appears to be the only one in that 10 set. 11 MR. CRAMPTON: I'd like to have 12 another exhibit marked. 13 (Vasquez Exhibit No. 30 was 14 marked for identification.) 15 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) Inspector Vasquez, 16 I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 17 No. 30, and ask if you can identify what that 18 is? 19 A. This is going to be or what appears to 20 be a copy of a police report. That's the normal 21 police report that we do. 22 Q. It looks as though it's a computer 23 printout. Is that what it is? 24 A. It's a microfiche. If it was original 25 --, and originally it's going to be different; 149 1 and then once they storage that thing, you go 2 and get a copy, but that's -- yes, it's the same 3 thing. 4 Q. Can you tell from looking at this 5 whether this is the police report on this 6 fire--the fire that gives rise to this case? 7 A. The address is correct, the date is 8 correct, and Officer Grier is correct. Yeah, 9 this is -- this is one of the reports. 10 Q. Although it may be a little bit 11 monotonous, I'd like to go through this because 12 there's some parts about it that I find 13 difficult to read. 14 A. No problem. 15 Q. Just on the -- well, I guess it begins 16 with the No. 92 -- 17 A. '92 is the year and then the number. 18 Q. 177095? 19 A. Yes, that's correct. 20 Q. That's the number for this incident? 21 A. That's the number for that incident. 22 Q. Is that the police department's number? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And it says entry time here, 23:37? 25 A. That's when the -- okay. I guess it 150 1 requires an explanation. Okay. There's too 2 many police officers, too many offenses occur in 3 City of Fort Worth -- 4 Q. Excuse me, I don't want to interrupt 5 you. The question was just, what does this -- 6 A. The time is we call -- we make the 7 report. We answer to a machine and the machine 8 -- I mean, we talk to a machine and the machine 9 talks to us. We say, okay, this officer, blah, 10 blah, blah, blah. Then these operators they're 11 typing as fast as they can go every report. 12 Okay, when they get to this, the entry time is 13 when they type it in the computer. 14 Q. All right. 15 A. Yeah, okay. 16 Q. And 23:37 is 11:37 on the night of the 17 fire? 18 A. Yes. But if you go a little lower -- 19 just to save you some time, here's the time of 20 the occurrence right there (indicating), you 21 know, dates, time of occurrence, and it tells 22 you the whole story--the initial report. 23 Q. Did someone phone this report in; is 24 that what you said? 25 A. This officer over here -- Grier did. 151 1 Q. Officer Grier did. All right. A 2 little further down it says, "complainant 3 information," do you see where that is? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Then it has the name Shannon Moore? 6 A. Yeah, right. Your injured party always 7 going to be your complainant. 8 Q. The complainant, all right. And then 9 it says -- across there it says "WNF, 01." I 10 understand that's a while female, age one, 11 right? 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. What is the "N"? 14 A. None days (phonetic) -- or whatever. 15 You see, it has to do with ethnical background. 16 Don't ask me that question because I would like 17 to know what it means. 18 Q. Does "N" mean no -- or you don't know, 19 okay. 20 A. DOB is the date of birth. 21 Q. Right. All right. Skipping down now 22 to the original narrative. You see where that 23 is? 24 A. Yes, right. 25 Q. It's toward the bottom of page 1. 152 1 A. Uh-huh. 2 Q. What is decor entry by--what does that 3 mean? 4 A. 500 is the I.D. for the person who was 5 (indicating). 6 Q. Who was typing this in? 7 A. Typing. 8 Q. What is decor, or d-e-c-o-r? I guess I 9 shouldn't profess to know how to pronounce it. 10 A. Which one is the one you're talking 11 about? This one here, right. 12 Q. Yeah. 13 A. That's what decor stands for. If 14 you'll tell me what a decor stands for, I'll 15 tell you what it is. 16 Q. That's all right. All right. But then 17 this is the original narrative given by -- 18 A. Yes,. 19 Q. All right. And in here -- anywhere in 20 these things where it refers to, say, comp, does 21 that refer to the complaintant? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. And then the next -- 24 A. You're trying to decipher our report, 25 right? 153 1 Q. I'm trying to work through this. 2 A. We always -- when I'm talking, I said 3 Officer Vasquez met with the complainant, the 4 complainant said this. Officer Vasquez 5 interview witness, witness said this. Suspect 6 -- Officer Vasquez spoke with suspect, that's 7 -- but if you go up over here, it tells you 8 who's the suspect, who's the complainant. So 9 it's just the police lingo. 10 Q. All right. Let me then just skip, with 11 that explanation, to page 3 where it has 12 "witnesses" toward the bottom. When I say page 13 3, I'm looking at actually page 2 of Bates 14 number on the bottom. Page 3 of the microfiche, 15 right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Bottom half, it has three witnesses 18 listed, witness 001, see that? That's Shawna 19 Trotter. Is that what you refer to as the young 20 girl? 21 A. Young girl, yes. 22 Q. Witness No. 2 below that is Melborn 23 Stacks. Do you know who that is? 24 A. That could be Bud. 25 Q. All right. And witness No. 3, James 154 1 Brown. Do you know James Brown? 2 A. That could be the other guy that got 3 irate. 4 Q. The other guy that -- 5 A. It was another relative of theirs 6 there. He's the one that told me who -- he 7 asked me who I was and why I was asking too many 8 questions. 9 Q. Okay. Did he tell you -- did he tell 10 you anything about the fire? 11 A. As a matter of fact he -- I don't 12 remember. I think he told the same thing or 13 whatever--he says the same thing. So that's the 14 reason I just, okay, the same information. 15 Q. Okay. Moving to page 4 of the 16 microfiche, confiscated vehicle 001 -- that, 17 then, I take it is a description of the car? 18 A. The vehicle, yes. 19 Q. And this car was impounded? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Do you know what ever happened to the 22 car? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. You don't know where it is now? 25 A. I don't have any idea. 155 1 Q. And there are supplemental narratives 2 also provided in here. 3 A. My supplement is -- the one you're 4 looking for is page No. 7. 5 Q. Right. Supplemental narrative No. 3 on 6 page 9 -- 7 A. There we go. Yes, I got it. 8 Q. I'm sorry, now just for a second I've 9 got to go back and look. The page --- now this 10 is the one I was looking at. Supplemental 11 narrative No. 3, which is calling Officer 12 Carpenter? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Will you just take a minute to review 15 that? 16 A. (Witness complies). 17 Q. Have you reviewed it now? 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. It appears from this that Officer 20 Carpenter took some statements from Shelly Moore 21 and from Shawna Trotter, right? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Did you review those? 24 A. I remember reading it, yes. 25 Q. Okay. Did you review those before or 156 1 after you came to the conclusion that you 2 reached in this case? 3 A. Oh, no. I reviewed those two days 4 ago. No, I never seen those. Well, I saw them 5 in the file, but I never paid attention to it. 6 Q. In those statements, apparently 7 Ms. Moore said that she was inside the house for 8 10 to 12 minutes, right? 9 A. Yeah. Of course, it's different than 10 what she told me. She told me between 10 and 15 11 minutes. 12 Q. 10 and 15. And you believe she -- that 13 this fire could not have occurred unless she was 14 in the house longer than that? 15 A. Longer than 30 minutes. 16 Q. The fire could not have been a 17 cigarette fire unless she was in the house 18 longer than that? 19 MR. GRISHAM: Objection; calls 20 for speculation. 21 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) Is that right? 22 A. What was the question again? 23 Q. That's all right. I withdraw that 24 question. 25 Further down in this supplemental 157 1 narrative No. 3, it begins on there--it says on 2 07/14/92, July 14th, '92; do you see that? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. The Detective--that's Carpenter, right 5 -- 6 A. Uh-huh. 7 Q. -- spoke to David Montogue, who is a 8 prosecutor of crimes against children, who 9 stated that due to the fact that the suspect had 10 asked her sister to watch the complainant and 11 that this fire was possibly started by a Bic 12 lighter in the front seat of the vehicle and it 13 was considered to be an accident by Inspector 14 Vasquez, that a general complaint citation be 15 issued to the suspect for leaving an unattended 16 child in the vehicle? 17 A. It's a crime -- 18 Q. Right. 19 A. It's a crime leaving an unattended 20 child in the vehicle. 21 Q. Did you suggest to David Montogue that 22 this fire may have been caused by a Bic lighter? 23 A. To the best of my recollection, I never 24 used a Bic lighter. If I use it, it's to 25 indicate a lighter that you strike like this 158 1 (indicating), if I use it. But I don't think I 2 ever used that word. I always use a cigarette 3 lighter. When I say that, everybody understands 4 what I mean. 5 But to answer your question, I never 6 suggested that it was a Bic -- what is that? 7 Q. A Bic lighter? 8 A. Yeah. No, I never. 9 Q. What about any other kind of lighter? 10 A. I use -- I said cigarette lighter. 11 Q. Did you suggest to David Montogue that 12 this case -- this fire might have been caused by 13 a cigarette lighter? 14 A. I never was asked that question. 15 Q. Did you ever talk with David Montogue 16 about this? 17 A. He's the district attorney, no. I 18 never spoke with him. 19 Q. Bear with me just a minute here. If we 20 could turn back -- it would probably be easiest 21 if we turned back to the fire department 22 records, and I don't remember the exact exhibit 23 number on that. Where are the exhibits? 24 A. This last one? 25 Q. No, it's an earlier one. It's the 159 1 thick one that I handed to you before. 2 A. This one here? 3 Q. Oh, yeah, that's it. Sorry, okay. 4 Turning back to Vasquez Exhibit 27, that is the 5 fire department records you recall? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. The first several pages here appear to 8 be photographs. And these are photographs taken 9 by either you or by Corporal Ponikiewski in this 10 case? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Page 28 and a few pages following 13 appear to be additional copies of the same 14 police report that we looked at before. Is that 15 what those are? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Page 33 -- if you will turn to page 33, 18 please. Can you identify what this is? 19 A. This was a memo or some kind of note 20 for me asking me for the cigarette lighter. 21 Q. It appears that in the original there's 22 the routing form--which is what this is--and 23 then there appears to have been a note or 24 perhaps a yellow sticker put on top of it with 25 some notes on it? 160 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And then if you look to the left of 3 where the sidewards writing is, the sticker, 4 there's a check mark in what looks like is -- 5 says "take." Do you see that? 6 A. This one, no. 7 Q. Oh, down here, down here. Do you know 8 what it says under there? 9 A. It might be easy. You just want to 10 know which one -- 11 Q. I just want to know what it says. 12 A. That one right there? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. Take appropriate action. 15 Q. All right. And there's a note that's 16 underneath the sticker there under "remarks" 17 that you can't read on our copy; do you see 18 that? Can you tell us what that note says? 19 A. Sure. If we have any pictures -- well, 20 I don't know. I can't even read it. I think my 21 Chief was going to be a doctor, but he never 22 went to medical school. 23 Q. If we have any pictures, please 24 something with legal, okay. 25 A. Oh, what he means is -- 161 1 Q. Oh, confer, I'll bet it is. 2 A. Yeah. Every time there's a legal -- I 3 mean, you know, every time somebody asks for 4 copies, whatever, if it's not for insurance 5 purpose, you have to spin those through the 6 legal department. That's the city attorney, 7 maybe that's what it means. 8 Q. On the actual sticker, that's a note 9 written by someone and then -- 10 A. That's my boss, my supervisor, Gary 11 Rhodes. 12 Q. Gary Rhodes wrote that? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. Can you read what it says? 15 A. What it says, the cigarette -- I mean, 16 the lighter was submitted to the lab, and then 17 crime lab phone number, 877-8084, that's 18 Wade--that's the technician--only the metal part 19 of the lighter was found and submitted. Several 20 attorneys was told this -- or whatever, any 21 photos and papers must be approved by the office 22 handling this case, Officer Carpenter. 23 So what it says, probably every legal 24 action went towards Carpenter; because after 25 that determined to be accidental fire, he's the 162 1 one that was doing the criminal investigation. 2 Q. Okay. This note -- just looking at it 3 now, it looks like it's from H.L. McMillen; is 4 that right? 5 A. Well, it's some interoffice memos that 6 they write. Depends who -- McMillen is my fire 7 chief -- is the head honcho of the whole fire 8 department. And then Ramon is the City -- 9 Q. Well, I don't need to know who all of 10 them are. 11 A. Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. It's 12 just a memo. And they -- whoever it goes to, 13 they just put a mark. In this case was going to 14 Peacock. That was the fire marshal back then. 15 So that's the reason this one came down to 16 Donald Peacock. 17 Q. And then it ended up in the file on 18 this case? 19 A. On this case. 20 Q. It says it was dated 10/6. Was this 21 possibly 10/6/92 in connection with other 22 attorneys looking for the lighter? 23 A. Could be '92, '93, because I remember 24 after that somebody -- I had a bunch -- I mean, 25 several organizations asking for the lighter to 163 1 make a study to do some kind of research to come 2 out with a child-proof lighter. I mean, I 3 remember all those things transpiring. 4 Q. Do you know what organizations those 5 were who were contacting you about the lighter? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. Was it a lighter manufacturer? 8 A. That would be hard to say. 9 Q. Do you know if it was attorneys? 10 A. There were several attorneys. 11 Q. Were there attorneys representing 12 Shelly Moore or Shannon Moore in this case 13 looking for the lighter? 14 A. I couldn't answer that question because 15 I don't know. 16 Q. Just paging on through this, it appears 17 that there's more pages of the police -- 18 A. Let me see. Is it upside down? 19 Q. No, it goes like that. Next page is a 20 routing form of some kind. I don't know whether 21 that's significant. Turning the page after 22 that, so we're now on pages 35 and 36, that 23 appears to be more of the police department 24 report? 25 A. Yes, sir. That's my supplement. 164 1 Q. This is the supplement given by you to 2 the -- as a police officer to the police 3 department? 4 A. As a police officer, I have to make a 5 report. 6 Q. When was this given? 7 A. Good question. Where's the date? I 8 think it was the next day, wasn't it? It was 9 done that night, but it went in, like, early in 10 the morning next day, right after -- 11 Q. It looks like an entry time of 6:06 12 a.m. of 4/5/92? 13 A. As far as you can tell, I stayed up all 14 night. 15 Q. Did you give this -- did you phone this 16 report in -- 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- at about the time you made your 19 conclusions in this case? 20 A. After the -- after the fact. There's 21 too much paperwork involved. And then this one 22 is the last thing I -- 23 Q. Did you do it that night? 24 A. To the best of my recollections, yes. 25 Q. All right. So this supplemental 165 1 narrative is the supplement to the original 2 police report -- 3 A. The first one, yes. 4 Q. -- provided by you? 5 A. Yes. Why initiate another report when 6 you keep the same narrative all the way down to 7 the end of the report. 8 Q. Okay. Your conclusion, which appears 9 on 36 -- page 36 of the fire department records 10 appears to be, evidence shows that a -- shows 11 there is a possibility of a discarded cigarette 12 on the seat by baby items could have smoldered, 13 then ignited the baby items, and then spread 14 within the confiscated vehicle causing heavy 15 damage to the confiscated vehicle. Is that your 16 report? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. At that time, it appears that you were 19 -- you believed that the first item ignited was 20 baby items? 21 A. Yeah. The -- whatever was there, food 22 for baby, whatever was in the brown bag plus the 23 diapers. 24 Q. At the time, though, it was the items 25 that you thought -- 166 1 A. Yes. Because it's hard to -- you keep 2 asking me, and it's hard for me to distinguish 3 what it was. Just items, things. 4 Q. You can't tell exactly what was -- 5 A. Exactly right. 6 Q. So you can't tell exactly what was 7 first ignited, right? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. The next pages 37, 38, 39, appear to be 10 -- well, we've already looked at these. These 11 are the evidence report from Corporal 12 Ponikiewski? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Page 40, can you identify what that is? 15 A. This could be a statement taken by -- I 16 mean, taken from Shelly L. Moore by Officer 17 Carpenter. 18 Q. Can you tell when it was taken? 19 A. It was taken on May -- well, May 30, 20 '92, at 11:31 a.m. in the morning -- I mean, 21 the daytime. 22 Q. I understand. Was she under oath at 23 the time she gave this statement? 24 A. Sure. I mean, yeah, I assume. I hope 25 she was. 167 1 Q. It appears that she was even advised of 2 her rights in the initial paragraph? 3 A. It should be done. That's the reason 4 right there. 5 Q. And in this statement, she says that 6 she arrived at her residence at approximately 7 6:15, and the fire occurred at what time? 8 A. 29 -- 6:29. 9 Q. And, again, down toward the bottom, she 10 says she was inside the house for 10 to 12 11 minutes, correct? 12 A. (Witness nods head). 13 Q. On the next page--page 41--can you 14 identify this? This is the statement of Shawna 15 Trotter, right? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. Also given on the 30th of May '92? 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. And her statement, the very last 20 sentence appears to say that Shelly was inside 21 the house approximately 10 minutes, right? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. Looking through the statement, up above 24 there -- 25 A. Yes. 168 1 Q. -- she says that, Shelly then asked me 2 to keep an eye on Shannon. Do you see that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And I went back to the room where 5 Michael Ray, my cousin, was and I looked out the 6 window. I could see Shannon in the car seat 7 still asleep. At that time, the car was not on 8 fire. About two minutes later I looked out the 9 window again and the car fire and flames were 10 coming out of the passenger's side window, 11 correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. If she had looked out the window two 14 minutes prior to the fire moving from the 15 smoldering phase to the flaming phase, she would 16 have seen smoke, right? 17 A. Should. 18 Q. Pages 42 through 45 appear to be 19 correspondence to and from attorneys named Rake 20 and D.L. Peacock? 21 A. Donald Peacock. 22 Q. Have you reviewed these before? 23 A. I seen them this morning. 24 Q. That was the first time you looked at 25 them? 169 1 A. No. I seen these before. As they came 2 in, they told me get ready with your file, put 3 this in your file. So I read them and, you 4 know... 5 Q. Pages 46 -- what is page 46? 6 A. Good question. What is that? That 7 looks like an injury or fire casualty. It's a 8 fire department form that we fill out. It's 9 pink in color. That's the reason the copy is 10 not that good. 11 Q. And these are -- page 47 is a casualty 12 report? 13 A. Yes. That one and this one is more or 14 less similar. 15 Q. Same thing? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Page 48 is an EMS Patient Report? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And so is page 49. Page 50 we've 20 already looked at, which is the alarm report? 21 A. Uh-huh, the times. 22 Q. We had a prior exhibit which was some 23 additional reports, the incident reports from 24 Chief Miller and from you. Does anyone know 25 where they are right now? 170 1 MR. GRISHAM: Exhibit what? 2 MR. CRAMPTON: 1 maybe, yes. 3 (Discussion off the record.) 4 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) This is Exhibit 1 5 again. The first page is a Fort Worth Fire 6 Department Incident Report, right? 7 A. That one right there, yes. 8 Q. We've already talked about that? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And this is the report that you made, 11 correct? 12 A. This is my report, yes. 13 Q. When did you make this report? 14 A. 10:00 -- 9:00 o'clock that night. 15 Q. The night of the fire? 16 A. The night of the fire, yes, sir. 17 Q. And these were your conclusions at the 18 time? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Level of origin, do you see that there 21 -- the term "level of origin"? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Grade 301, what does that mean? 24 A. Grade level is a fire outside a -- 25 outside of a structural fire that is going to be 171 1 between the ground surface up to 9 or 10 feet 2 high. That's what it means. 3 It's a national standard of the 4 National Fire -- National Fire Academy, the 5 Institute, whatever -- it's a national 6 organization that these reports go to to keep up 7 and make studies. So that's the reason they 8 establish these guidelines. 9 If it's inside a structure, you say 10 101. Because it's one floor -- one building, 11 one residence, one floor. And this one grade is 12 outside in the yard, so you put 301 because it's 13 between the ground up to 10 feet high or 9 feet 14 high. So that's what it means. 15 Q. On the third page of this exhibit, 16 which is -- and you've already testified this is 17 the report from Chief Miller, he has 101 on 18 there under grade. That's a mistake? 19 A. He's the chief. He can do anything he 20 wants to. 21 Q. When you testified on these before, you 22 said that your report supersedes his report? 23 A. As a fire investigator, yes. 24 Q. Right. So your conclusion doesn't 25 trump his? 172 1 A. He's not an expert. I'm the expert. 2 So what I put right here is what I know is my 3 knowledge. And if he can testify to whatever, 4 that's -- but he's not a fire investigator. I'm 5 the fire investigator, so my report supersedes 6 his on legal -- on legal matters like this. 7 Q. All right. You said in there under 8 type of material ignited, multiple? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And that's, again, the material that 11 was on the front seat--whatever it was? 12 A. Whatever it was right there on the 13 front seat, yes. 14 Q. And then under remarks, you have the 15 conclusion that -- this appears to be the same 16 conclusion we saw in your supplemental report to 17 the police, which is that the evidence showed 18 the possibility of a discarded cigarette, right? 19 A. (Witness nods head). 20 Q. And at that time you thought it was the 21 possibility of a cigarette. You didn't choose 22 to use the words -- 23 A. Well, it's my word against hers. To 24 me, that's the only logical way. For her, she 25 don't know. 173 1 Q. But at the time you wrote this, you 2 said "possibility." You did not come to the 3 definite conclusion that it was a cigarette, 4 right. 5 You said, under ignition factor, 6 discarded cigarette. But when you chose to 7 write your remarks, you said "possibility," 8 correct? 9 A. Well, I can prove that's what a 10 cigarette can do. But as long as she keeps 11 denying it or not to know -- using that word, I 12 don't know, maybe. So concrete -- 13 Q. The reason you have to say 14 "possibility" is you still don't have the 15 evidence you would need to come to the absolute 16 conclusion? 17 A. No. I had the evidence. It's just her 18 not admitting to that. 19 Q. You don't have the testimony? 20 A. Her admitting that she said it -- that 21 she -- if she would say, yes, I remember having 22 it in my hand, it maybe dropped right there, 23 then right there you say 100 percent this was a 24 discarded cigarette. But as long as she keeps 25 saying that, it's educated guess at that point. 174 1 But that's the only ignition source. 2 That's what I'm trying to say right here. It's 3 the only ignition source I got. 4 Q. You -- 5 A. I have not met a victim -- a fire 6 victim that admits to doing a thing like that 7 because they think it's stupid. 8 Q. You don't have any additional facts now 9 that would change the opinion that you wrote at 10 that time? 11 A. No, sir. 12 MR. MARKEY: I'm sorry, I didn't 13 understand. You said, I never met a fire victim 14 that what? 15 THE WITNESS: Admits to smoke and 16 leave the cigarette -- abandon it and they cause 17 -- and you ask them, you say, do you smoke? 18 No, I don't smoke, I don't smoke. Well, I 19 wonder, what is that in your mouth? 20 You see, I deal with this everyday so I 21 know how people reacts. People is going to be 22 on that denial stage all the time, and that's 23 the reason over here is where she was at that 24 time. 25 MR. MARKEY: Okay. Thank you, 175 1 sir. I didn't hear you. 2 MR. CRAMPTON: Ed, you know, I 3 was going to review through my notes and see if 4 I had anything else. I could do that if you 5 wanted to ask some questions now. I could do 6 that, and then -- but I'm not actually passing. 7 I want to come back. But just for a few 8 minutes. Is that all right, or would you rather 9 I just went ahead? 10 MR. MARKEY: I don't care. I 11 don't have that many. 12 MR. CRAMPTON: Why don't you just 13 go ahead. 14 MR. MARKEY: Do you want to take 15 a break, Mr. Vasquez? 16 THE WITNESS: Sure. 17 (Brief recess.) 18 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) Inspector Vasquez, 19 you just -- just as we were coming on the 20 record, you identified a page from Exhibit 1, 21 which -- well, can you describe what that is, 22 please? 23 A. This is going to be evidence 24 transmittal and appears like Lieutenant Young 25 from the Arson Division submit this to the crime 176 1 lab. 2 Q. Okay. And that's with respect to this 3 case? 4 A. Yes, in reference to this case because 5 that's our service number. 6 Q. And the service number is what? 7 A. 92177095. 8 Q. All right. We have with us here what 9 has been represented to be the seven canisters 10 of samples of evidence taken in this case. I 11 would like to ask you if you can identify them 12 as the samples from this case, and then we can 13 open them up and see what's in them. All right? 14 A. Yeah, that appears to be. 15 Q. All right. I think this is can 16 No. 1 -- 17 MR. GRISHAM: What we've been 18 trying to do, too, gentlemen, is not to touch 19 the samples. Mike and I made an attempt to 20 articulate the can in such a manner that we can 21 see it without touching the actual sample. 22 MR. CRAMPTON: All right. Maybe 23 we'll continue to do that way, unless there's 24 something in there that we think we need to 25 touch to see. Is that all right with you? 177 1 MR. GRISHAM: Just tell me before 2 you do it. I'd like the chance to make 3 objections. 4 MR. CRAMPTON: Yeah, all right. 5 If we can identify -- let's just go ahead and 6 start with -- 7 A. That's the crime -- that's going to be 8 -- 9 MR. CRAMPTON: Let's clear this 10 evidence. 11 A. That number that you point out is that 12 number right there. 13 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) Oh, I'm sorry, the 14 laboratory No. 121976 will be the identifying 15 number? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. All right, thank you. I'm just 18 clearing space here. All right. This is the 19 can that -- I don't know which would be the best 20 way to identify it. There's some marking on the 21 side. Would that be a good way? 22 Let me ask you this. What is the 23 significance of the different colored tape in 24 the top? 25 A. Somebody has opened it. My -- our 178 1 initial -- or whoever sealed this one is going 2 to be the red one. 3 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. The original 4 evidence is -- 5 A. The original is the red one. Somebody 6 got into for whatever the reason they have to 7 get in to. And then there's some more tape, so 8 whatever. This -- every time you open this you 9 have to seal it back again. 10 Q. All right. The red tape would be 11 Corporal Ponikiewski's tape; is that right? 12 A. It could be the red or the yellow one. 13 I'm not sure. 14 Q. All right. And the yellow is someone 15 else with the fire department, crime lab, police 16 department, someone else? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. And then there are two just plain 19 masking tape things that are on there with dates 20 and initials on there? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. I'm sorry. You were about to identify 23 what this was. If you could -- 24 A. I'm looking for the number. 25 Q. I think it's on the side. 179 1 A. That's the crime lab number, so is that 2 No. 1; is that what it means? 3 Q. I don't know. 4 A. Can No. 1 is what I'm saying. 5 Q. All right. Anyway, this -- 6 A. I see No. 4, that's No. 3, No. 4. It 7 should be numbered by -- 8 MR. CRAMPTON: Do you know if 9 that's right? 10 MR. GRISHAM: I'm sorry, I wasn't 11 listening. 12 MR. CRAMPTON: These cans have on 13 the side a number, dash, and then another 14 number. Does the second number there refer to 15 the number of the evidence can, or do you know? 16 MR. GRISHAM: I don't know. 17 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) There are initials 18 on there that appear to be in cursive, W.D.T. 19 Do you recognize those initials? 20 A. (Witness shakes head). 21 Q. Might it be Wade Thomas? 22 A. Yeah, it could be. Yeah, Thomas. 23 Could be him. 24 Q. Well, why don't we open it up and see 25 what's in there, okay? 180 1 A. You want to open it? 2 Q. You want me to do it? 3 A. I'll do it. I've never done it, so let 4 me do it for the first time. I'm always sealing 5 this can, but I never... Wow. 6 Q. Does it smell? 7 A. Are you ready for this? Yeah. All it 8 is is a sample of padding, foam. 9 Q. Okay. Anything else in there? 10 A. As far as I can tell, that's all it is 11 too. That's all it is, padding, from the seat. 12 It's just padding and foam from the -- from the 13 seat. 14 Q. And if we can identify where these came 15 from by looking at -- 16 A. -- the numbers. 17 Q. -- Sergeant -- or Corporal 18 Ponikiewski's identification on page 39, I 19 believe, of the fire department records? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. This appears to be No. 2. 22 A. You want -- can I lift whatever is in 23 it? It's foam. It's going to be another piece 24 of the car seat. 25 Q. Is there anything else in there? 181 1 A. No, I don't see anything else. 2 Q. That can appears to be corroded. In 3 some places, it's corroded all the way through 4 it? 5 A. Yes. It has to do with the water that 6 was in the sponge on the foam. That's what 7 caused that. 8 Q. It was wet when it went in there? 9 A. It was wet when it -- it's just... 10 Q. This is can No. 3. 11 A. It's going to be another sample, just 12 foam. 13 Q. Is there any way you can look at these 14 cans as you open them and identify which one 15 contained the remains of the cigarette pack and 16 the remains of the cigarette lighter? 17 A. I forgot which one is it. I cannot 18 recall exactly which one was, but it should be 19 one that has more debris -- 20 Q. -- debris in it. And that one had a 21 small amount? 22 A. This one has just, you know, samples of 23 the seat that we collect to test for flammable 24 liquid from different areas. 25 Q. Which number was that? That's 3? 182 1 A. 3. 2 MR. GRISHAM: Better watch it, we 3 might find the bloody glove in there from the 4 Simpson trial. 5 A. This is going to be another sample. 6 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) And this is can 7 No. 4, right? 8 A. Yeah, it's No. 4. This is another 9 sample of -- oh, let me... 10 Q. There's can No. 5. 11 A. This one is going to be our control 12 sample. That's to see what kind of gases are 13 produced from the foam. 14 Q. That sample was taken from a location 15 that was not burnt? 16 A. It was not burnt, yes. 17 Q. All right. Is there a -- I couldn't 18 see in there, is there a sample of the fabric? 19 No, that's just the foam. 20 A. No. That's just the foam. 21 Q. That was 5. These 5 and 6 appear to be 22 sticky on the side. Do you see that? Do you 23 know what would cause that? 24 A. Label. 25 Q. A label. Are these cans purchased new, 183 1 special for this? 2 A. Yes, yes. We buy these cans, and we 3 keep them in the locker. And then we just take 4 two or three at a time, whatever we need, put 5 them back in the truck. We don't want to keep 6 them for a long time because the contamination. 7 It's another sample from the seat. 8 It's just a small sample. There's one more. 9 Q. Still no lighter, still no cigarette 10 pack? 11 A. Is this the last one? 12 Q. The next one is the last one. 13 A. Is that -- I can't resist this. 14 Q. That's foam? 15 A. That's foam, and it's just debris. 16 Q. Do you know -- having looked at them 17 now, can you identify which one was the can that 18 did contain the remains of the cigarette package 19 and -- 20 A. Which number is this? 21 Q. That's No. 7. 22 A. No. 7. It should be in the first one 23 because it was the ones that was taken from the 24 beginning from the front seat. So it should be 25 either 2, 3, in that area right there. This one 184 1 is 7 being the last one, right, the rear seat. 2 Q. Incidentally, you didn't collect -- 3 yeah, go ahead and close that -- samples of the 4 brown bag or the diapers or any other materials 5 from the seat? 6 A. No, no. I was more concerned at this 7 point in time of any flammable liquid that could 8 be. And that's the reason -- you know, if I 9 took some of the debris, it's just from there, 10 from the area. And then the rest, you know, 11 like I said, if it would be a fire bomb, it's 12 going to splash. And that's what I was looking 13 for. 14 Q. And as you sit here now, you do not 15 know whatever became of the cigarette pack or 16 the remains of the lighter? 17 A. I just remember I said, can we put that 18 one, and she says sure. And that's all I 19 remember. 20 Q. I have just a few more questions. 21 Because I don't think we have it on the record, 22 can you give me your -- your home residence, 23 your address? 24 A. 69 -- well, let's start -- I never use 25 my home adress. Either I use a P.O. Box number 185 1 or I use the office number. The sensitivity of 2 my job, I have to relocate once in a while. 3 Q. How about your P.O. Box number? 4 A. 6248 -- 60248. 5 Q. Fort Worth? 6 A. Fort Worth, Texas 76115. 7 Q. And your driver's license number? 8 A. Good question. 9 Q. If you have it on you, you can pull it 10 out. 11 A. And the last 14 years is the first time 12 I'm going to use my driver's license. Since I 13 became a firefighter, I never have to use it. 14 03271555. 15 Q. Maybe before you put that away, how 16 about your social security number? 17 A. 457-04-7719. 18 MR. CRAMPTON: Did you get that, 19 Tammy? 20 COURT REPORTER: Yes. 21 A. That's codes for any police work and to 22 get into the computer, whatever. That's the 23 reason I know that number. 24 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) This case is 25 actually pending in Cleburne in Johnson County. 186 1 If the case does go to trial, would you be 2 willing to come down to Cleburne to testify? 3 A. Not a problem. Can I ask why Cleburne. 4 Q. That's a very good question. 5 A. They burned the courthouse up there. 6 Q. Don't ask me. 7 A. They lost the courthouse not too long 8 ago. 9 Q. I tell you, that's the question that I 10 asked. We have some more discovery to conduct. 11 In fact, we've done very little in this case. 12 And we may learn some things that cause us to 13 want to ask you some more questions. If that 14 were the case, could we subpoena you again 15 for -- 16 A. Not a problem. 17 Q. I mean, not subpoena, but notice. 18 Would you be willing to come and testify again 19 in a deposition? 20 A. Not a problem. I'll be glad to do it. 21 Q. You made reference in the course of 22 your deposition today to some books that are in 23 the library at your office on car fires? 24 A. Car fires, car fire investigations. 25 We've got several books. 187 1 Q. Could you make a list of those for us 2 and send it, perhaps, to the court reporter or 3 to one of the attorneys just so that we can see 4 what that list was? 5 A. No problem. I can do that. 6 Q. And also the journal with the white 7 cover, the journal that te fire department gets 8 on fire investigation -- the quarterly journal? 9 MR. GRISHAM: The quarterly 10 journal we talked about, is that what you're -- 11 MR. CRAMPTON: Yes. Quarterly 12 journal on fire investigation. 13 A. If I can find one, yes. 14 Q. (By Mr. Crampton) If there isn't one, 15 that's all right. 16 A. I'll look for one, yes, sir. 17 MR. CRAMPTON: That's all that I 18 have. 19 EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. MARKEY: 21 Q. Mr. Vasquez, my name is Ed Markey. I 22 represent Shelly Moore, the child's mother. We 23 haven't met before today, have we, sir? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. I just have a few questions. The first 188 1 two attorneys were quite thorough. Are you a 2 police officer as well as a fireman? 3 A. Yes, sir, I'm certified both. 4 Q. Could you explain to me, did you become 5 a fireman first, and then become police officer, 6 or how does that work? 7 A. In the City of Forth Worth, it's a 8 requirement for a fire investigator to be a 9 police officer and be a firefighter, to have the 10 background knowledge on fire fighting. That's 11 one of the reasons they train a firefighter to 12 become a police officer to be arson 13 investigator. 14 One of the requirements says you have 15 to be six years within the fire department, have 16 a promotional, being promoted one time, and then 17 is when you qualify -- I mean, you have to be 18 qualified to be a peace officer. They go 19 through the whole background, criminal history, 20 and then you become an arson investigator, but 21 after you become a Fort Worth police officer. 22 Q. So you have the power to arrest people? 23 A. Yes. We do arrest people everyday. 24 Q. You have the right to carry a gun and 25 you have a badge? 189 1 A. We carry weapons and badges. 2 Q. I'd like to just talk to you about your 3 conversations with Shelly, my client. Did you 4 -- you said at one point in your testimony that 5 she became irate with you, and then another time 6 you said that she appeared to be calm? 7 A. The initial -- the initial interview 8 she was calm, she was not too excited. 9 Q. Was she in shock? 10 A. It would be hard for me to say. But 11 anyway, so at the point when she became irate 12 was at the end of the incident when she wanted 13 to leave the scene. Without me knowing, she got 14 in the car, they got inside the car and she was, 15 I think, on the rear passenger seat. It was 16 four people in the vehicle. So... 17 Q. Two men and two women or -- 18 A. I think it was -- yeah, two men, two 19 women, I think. So I went and tapped, said, 20 ma'am, don't leave. I need to clarify some 21 things. And at that point she looks at me and 22 she said, I said everything I have to say. 23 So I said, ma'am, it is possibility -- 24 you know, I go through the things. I says, step 25 out of the car. And then is when -- I don't 190 1 know which one of the males she -- he said, she 2 don't have to talk to you. And I said, yes, she 3 does. 4 Q. Did you identify yourself as -- 5 A. Not at this point. Not at this time. 6 So I said, ma'am, can you step out of the car, 7 and that's when he says, who are you? So at 8 that time I said, I'm officer so and so. And at 9 that time, wow. I said, either she goes with -- 10 either she come out right now -- and I 11 understand the situation -- she come out right 12 now, answer my two, three questions I have and 13 you be on your way. But we make it the easy way 14 or the hard way. Either we go downtown. 15 Q. And then she did cooperate, though? 16 A. At that time she got out. She jumped 17 out of the car and we got talking. 18 Q. Okay. Considering the -- well, what 19 type of a neighborhood was this house in? 20 A. I don't know what type of neighborhood. 21 Q. A residential neighborhood? 22 A. Oh, it's a residential neighborhood. 23 Q. Apartment complex? 24 A. Oh, no, no. It's residential. Just 25 single-dwelling families. 191 1 Q. Nice neighborhood, or was it run down? 2 I don't know how to say it nicely. 3 A. Well, it's a tough question if you go 4 to my neighborhood, it's run down. I mean, you 5 know, wherever I go is nice neighborhood. Mine 6 is run down. 7 Q. All single-family houses? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. How many people were on the scene when 10 you arrived? 11 A. Many, many. Police officers, people 12 just looking, neighbors just looking, 13 firefighters. You count them, at least 20 14 firefighters. Too many to count. 15 Q. Okay. You said you heard someone in 16 the crowd mention the possibility of a fire 17 bomb. Did you hear anyone mention anything 18 about perhaps that there had been children 19 playing around the car before the fire started? 20 A. Nothing like that. Nothing like that. 21 When I heard that comment, I was going to my 22 truck, you know, get some tools or whatever. I 23 was walking to my truck. I don't know who said, 24 is it a fire bomb? I said, they said it was a 25 fire bomb. So I look at him. I said, I don't 192 1 know yet. You know, that's my answer all the 2 time. 3 I'm an investigator, and I'm -- you 4 know, I'm in the process to find out. And 5 that's the only thing I heard. And that's the 6 reason -- not because they mention it, but it's 7 part of my job to eliminate every -- every 8 aspect of the deal. 9 I approach the fire incident as an 10 accident. Once it deviates from that accident 11 is when you start looking at suspicious fire. 12 Q. Okay. Is it possible that someone else 13 had been in the car smoking a cigarette other 14 than Shelly Moore? Did you hear anything that 15 would lead you to suppose that? 16 A. No, not a thing. 17 Q. Did you hear anything about whether or 18 not someone walked by or drove by and threw a 19 cigarette into the car? 20 A. No, sir. The car was not in the 21 position for somebody to just -- it was not at 22 that point where anybody from the street just -- 23 no, sir, something like that. 24 Q. Someone could have -- couldn't someone 25 have walked by and tossed a cigarette into the 193 1 car? 2 A. It would be hard for me to say. 3 Q. Possible? 4 A. I don't know. No comment. 5 Q. But I mean, it's clearly your 6 conclusion, and I don't want to argue with you 7 about that, that it was a cigarette, right? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. And I ask this just one last time. Did 10 you hear anything about any kids playing around 11 the car with matches or anything like that? 12 A. Nobody mentioned anything. 13 Q. Could this fire have started from a 14 match being tossed on to the ignition point? 15 A. I don't think so. I don't think so. 16 Q. And about the lighter, I guess I'm 17 confused as to what -- what was the condition of 18 the lighter when you found it. Was it melted 19 or -- 20 A. All I saw is like debris, black 21 debris. But at the same time, that little shiny 22 stuff like a little piece of metal. That's the 23 reason -- 24 Q. Had it melted? 25 A. It was melted, yes. It was gone. I 194 1 mean, you know, you can tell what it was just by 2 looking at it. 3 Q. Do you recall when Shelly said she had 4 last smoked a cigarette? 5 A. When I asked her the first time inside 6 the residence, she denied everything about being 7 smoking. When I got her the second interview 8 before she left, she said, well, I might have. 9 But be specific what you say, said never 10 mentioned when she had the last cigarette. 11 Q. You interviewed her one time in the 12 house? 13 A. (Witness nods head). 14 Q. And then one time out by the car? 15 A. In the front yard. 16 Q. And no other times besides that, 17 correct? 18 A. No other time. 19 Q. Did you talk to any of the other people 20 on the scene about whether or not she had been 21 smoking, like, the people in the car? 22 A. No, I didn't ask them. 23 Q. In the photographs that you've gone 24 through today, are there any of them that 25 refresh your recollection as to whether the 195 1 windows were up or not? 2 A. To the best of my recollection, all 3 windows were up. But some -- like something -- 4 something keeps coming at me that somebody 5 mentioned one of the windows being partially 6 open or whatever, but I don't know. Actually, 7 to me, all the windows were open. I mean, the 8 windows were up -- correction, were closed. The 9 car was -- the vehicle was closed. 10 Q. But the -- was the windshield blown out 11 or busted out by the firemen? 12 A. I don't know. I couldn't answer that 13 question. 14 Q. Was the windshield intact -- let me ask 15 it that way. When you got -- 16 A. When I got there, everything was 17 broken. 18 Q. All the windows? 19 A. All the windows. 20 Q. Even the side windows had been -- 21 A. Side windows. When I got there, they 22 were just waiting for me. No fire. Just the 23 way I saw everything. That's just the way it 24 was. No more activities. They had the yellow 25 tape around it. Nobody was going in and out but 196 1 me. 2 Q. Was it smoking still? 3 A. No smoke. 4 Q. Cold? I mean, was the car cold? 5 A. I don't know. That's a tough 6 question. I don't remember if it was. 7 Q. Was it cold outside? It was in April. 8 A. Tough question too. I remember seeing 9 some daylight, but I don't remember what kind of 10 day was it. I couldn't say what type of weather 11 it was. 12 MR. MARKEY: That's all I have. 13 Thank you, sir. 14 FURTHER EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. GRISHAM: 16 Q. Mr. Vasquez, I have some follow-up 17 questions for you. One of the things I'd like 18 to ask about is the certification that you 19 obtained in 1995 from the National Fire 20 Academy. 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. What was the nature of that 23 certification? 24 A. That's like more advance course on 25 cause and origin. 197 1 Q. And you traveled to Maryland to take 2 the course of study underlying that? 3 A. Yes. It's sort of like a privilege. 4 You have to qualify to get into the National 5 Fire Academy because they provide you with 6 everything. They pay for everything. 7 Q. Who nominated you for that privilege or 8 provided for you to go? 9 A. I keep insisting. Five years, every 10 year I keep putting my application -- putting my 11 application in, and finally I got the call. 12 Q. You mentioned earlier when I was 13 questioning you that obviously you're a 14 certified fire investigator in the State of 15 Texas? 16 A. Yes, I am. 17 Q. And what I wasn't clear about is who or 18 what authority issues that certification. Is it 19 the State? 20 A. The state of Texas. 21 Q. And you also indicated you had an 22 Associate's degree in fire investigations? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Where did that come from? 25 A. Tarrant County Junior College. 198 1 Q. Tarrant County Junior College. And you 2 received that at about what year, roughly? 3 A. I got it right over here. First I 4 obtain my Fire Technology Associate degree on 5 1989, May 1989. And then I got my fire 6 investigation in December 1994. Both 7 Associate's. 8 Q. So you have two Associate's degrees in 9 your field? 10 A. Soon to complete three, Criminal 11 Justice. 12 Q. You mentioned that retired Deputy 13 Peacock had talked with you a couple of years 14 back about the lighter, the cigarette lighter? 15 A. Everybody keeps looking for the 16 lighter. And every time he sees me, he says, I 17 need the lighter. He says, what you done with 18 the lighter? Ask the crime lab. That's where I 19 left it. And that's the reason I knew every 20 time he sees me, he says, hey, they still 21 looking for the lighter. 22 Q. Do you know why he was interested in 23 getting the lighter? 24 A. One thing he mentioned, a company 25 supposed to run -- do a research to develop a 199 1 child-proof lighter. That was one of the 2 things. 3 Q. Was he working for this company as a 4 consultant, or do you have -- 5 A. No. He -- I don't think he ever worked 6 for them. The reason is, he's the fire marshal 7 in Fort Worth, so everything comes to him. 8 Q. I see. In your mind, as the 9 investigator who looked into this incident, did 10 you believe that in any way the little girl in 11 the car had manipulated that lighter to cause 12 the fire? 13 A. No. That little girl was strapped into 14 the seat. 15 Q. Does your department or any subdivision 16 in your department keep a cause and origin 17 notebook that lists the causes or origins of 18 particular type fires by date? 19 A. Yes. We have a log book where we keep 20 every fire. 21 Q. And the log book -- if someone wanted 22 to know in April of 1995 what fires your 23 department worked, you could go to that log 24 book? 25 A. And the secretary would be glad to tell 200 1 you. 2 Q. Okay. How far back does that log book 3 go? 4 A. It can go back up to '89 when I came 5 into the fire investigation. Because I've done 6 research. I've been looking for some fires back 7 in '89. So I know there's a book from 1989. It 8 could be from farther back, you know. 9 Q. Are you a member of the N.F.P.A., 10 National Fire Protection Association? 11 A. I buy books from them, but I'm not a 12 member. 13 Q. Are they a good source of literature 14 for you in your -- in the fire investigation 15 field? 16 A. The best. One of the best. 17 Q. Counsel talked with you about a 18 notation on the incident report where you said 19 the possible ignition source was a cigarette. 20 And you told him, I thought, that it was your 21 opinion that that was the ignition source. And 22 there was some discussion back and forth. 23 And the question that I pose in that 24 context is this: On the basis of your 25 investigation, what you saw at the scene, your 201 1 experience as a fire investigator, your training 2 and education, do you believe it's more probable 3 than not that the ignition source for the fire 4 that we're concerned here with today is a 5 smoldering cigarette? 6 MR. CRAMPTON: Object to the form 7 because it's calling for opinion testimony and 8 he hasn't been established as an expert, so I 9 object. 10 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) You can answer the 11 question. 12 A. That was the only source -- possible 13 source. 14 Q. Does the issue of whether or not the 15 windows were up or down or partially open or 16 partially closed have any bearing on whether or 17 not that was the ignition source, in your mind? 18 A. The windows have to have a bearing on 19 that one because you're talking about a 20 smoldering-type of fire that means lack of 21 oxygen in complete burning combustion. That's 22 the reason you have to look at the windows on 23 those things. 24 Q. Would the positioning of the windows be 25 pertinent in your investigation to how much 202 1 oxygen was provided to the smoldering cigarette? 2 A. That's true, yes. 3 Q. And if the windows were open, depending 4 on the wind and the climatic factors, a 5 smoldering cigarette getting more oxygen is more 6 likely to rupture the flame sooner than one 7 that's deprived of oxygen; is that true? 8 A. That's true. 9 (Brief interruption.) 10 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Vasquez, just so 11 I'll understand, no one has provided you any 12 compensation for the -- your appearance here 13 today, have they? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. You're not being paid by any party to 16 this lawsuit and have not been paid by any party 17 to this lawsuit, have you? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. The investigation that you've done has 20 been in your official capacity as a fire 21 investigator for the City of Fort Worth? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. And that is the only reason you've done 24 an investigation? 25 A. That's correct. 203 1 MR. GRISHAM: I'll pass the 2 witness. 3 MR. CRAMPTON: Nothing else here, 4 and Ed is gone. 5 (Whereupon deposition concluded 6 4:15 p.m., February 13, 1996.) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 204 1 2 3 4 5 SABINO VASQUEZ 6 7 8 9 10 State Of Texas ) 11 County Of ) 12 13 14 15 Subscribed and sworn to before me, 16 the undersigned authority, by the above-named 17 witness, this the day of , 18 1996. 19 20 21 22 23 Notary Public In And For The State Of Texas 24 25 205 1 2 STATE OF TEXAS ) 3 COUNTY OF TRAVIS ) 4 5 6 7 This is to certify that I, Tamara J. 8 Braun, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for 9 Travis County, Texas, reported in shorthand the 10 proceedings had at the time and place set forth 11 in the caption hereof, and that the above and 12 foregoing 204 pages contain a full, true and 13 correct transcript of the said proceedings. 14 This the 15TH day of MARCH, 1996. 15 16 17 18 19 TAMARA J. BRAUN, CSR #3396 CSR Expiration: 12/31/97 20 Braun Enterprises 503 West 17th Street, Ste. 200 21 Austin, Texas 78701 (512) 499-8093 22 23 24 25 206 1 CAUSE NO. 623,866 2 Shanna Shipman, A/N/F * In the District Court of 3 of Shannon Moore, A Minor 4 VS. * Johnson County, Texas 5 Philip Morris Co., 6 Inc., et al * 18th Judicial District 7 ORAL DEPOSITION OF SABINO VASQUEZ 8 TAKEN ON FEBRUARY 13, 1996 9 10 I, Tamara J. Braun, Certified Shorthand 11 Reporter, CSR #3396, hereby certify that: 12 The deposition transcript is a true 13 record of the testimony given by the witness 14 named herein, after said witness was duly 15 sworn. 16 $ is the charges for the 17 preparation of the completed deposition 18 transcript and any copies of exhibits attached 19 thereto, charged to the Defendants. 20 The original transcript was sent to the 21 witness for examination and signature on the 22 15th day of March 1996. By agreement of 23 counsel, the witness is to return the signed 24 deposition to the Custodial Attorney within 25 30 days. After delivery, the court reporter has 207 1 no further responsibility for said original 2 transcript or notification of changes made by 3 the witness. 4 Pursuant to information made a part of 5 the record at the time said testimony was taken, 6 the following includes all Parties of Record: 7 8 LYNN GRISHAM, WALTMAN & ASSOCIATES, 3833 S. Texas Ave., Ste. 150, Bryan, 9 Texas 77802 FOR THE PLAINTIFF 10 WILLIAM CRAMPTON, Shook, Hardy, & 11 Bacon, One Kansas City Place, 1200 Main Street, Kansas City, Missouri 64105 12 FOR THE DEFENDANTS 13 MICHAEL BRADEN, Carrington, Coleman, Sloman & Blumenthal, 200 Crescent Court, 14 Ste. 1500, Dallas, Texas 75201 FOR THE DEFENDANTS 15 EDWARD MARKEY, St. Clair & Markey, 16 Summit Office Park, 1200 Summit Avenue, Ste. 620, Fort Worth, Texas 76102 17 FOR THE DEFENDANTS 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 208 1 2 3 A copy of this certificate was served 4 on all parties shown herein. 5 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND AND SEAL of office 6 on this the 14th day March, 1996. 7 8 9 TAMARA J. BRAUN, CSR #3396 10 CSR Expiration: 12/31/97 Braun Enterprises 11 503 W. 17th, Ste. 200 Austin, Texas 78701 12 (512) 499-8093 293-8411 13 14 Ref. No. 96-2001 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25