1 1 CAUSE NO. 26,294 2 SHANNA SHIPMAN A/N/F OF ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF 3 SHANNON MOORE, A MINOR, ) Plaintiff, ) 4 ) VS. ) JOHNSON COUNTY, TEXAS 5 ) PHILIP MORRIS COMPANIES, ) 6 INC., PHILIP MORRIS ) INCORPORATED, PHILIP ) 7 MORRIS U.S.A. AND ) SHELLY MOORE, ) 8 Defendants ) 18TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 9 10 11 12 13 14 ORAL DEPOSITION 15 OF 16 ANDREW KALLIANOS 17 18 19 20 21 22 TAKEN JANUARY 6, 1997 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 2 1 I N D E X 2 PAGE 3 APPEARANCES - - - - - - - - - - - - - 4 4 INFORMATIONAL PARAGRAPH - - - - - - - 5 5 ERRATA PAGE - - - - - - - - - - - - - 6 6 7 THE WITNESS: ANDREW KALLIANOS 8 Examination By Mr. Grisham - - - 7 9 10 DEPOSITION CONCLUDED - - - - - - - - 190 11 WITNESS SIGNATURE PAGE - - - - - - - 191 12 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE PAGE - - - - - 192 13 14 15 E X H I B I T I N D E X 16 PAGE 17 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION MARKED 18 1 Organizational chart 89 created by Mr. Grisham 19 2 Components of the 90 20 organizational chart 21 3 Report by Mr. Kallianos 104 22 4 Philip Morris Incorporated 117 interoffice correspondence 23 5 Memo from Mr. Greene 117 24 6 History of fire resistant 117 25 cigarettes MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 3 1 E X H I B I T I N D E X (CONT'D.) 2 PAGE EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION MARKED 3 7 Proposed product from 117 4 Safer Cigarette Research Co. 5 8 Memo from Mr. Kallianos 127 regarding visit to N.B.S. 6 9 1981 memo from Mr. Greene 131 7 10 Quarterly status report 132 8 by Mr. Kallianos 9 11 Philip Morris Incorporated 140 interoffice correspondence 10 12 Memo from Angela Smith 156 11 13 Interoffice correspondence 157 12 14 Presentation given by 158 13 Mr. Kallianos 14 15 Report by Mr. Kallianos 158 and Mr. Greene 15 16 - 17 Quarterly status reports 168 16 by Ms. Goodman 17 18 Document relating to 172 Project Delta 18 19 Document relating to 176 19 Project Hamlet 20 20 Multiple documents 176 21 21 Revised Board Talk by 179 Mr. Lilly 22 22 Annual report - 6/13/86 182 23 23 Ignition Propensity Status 182 24 Report 25 24 Interoffice correspondence 188 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 4 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 3 For The Plaintiff: 4 Waltman & Grisham 3833 S. Texas Avenue, Ste. 150 5 Bryan, Texas 77802 6 By: LYNN GRISHAM 7 For The Defendant, Philip Morris, et al: 8 Carrington, Coleman, Sloman 9 & Blumenthal 200 Crescent Court, Ste. 1500 10 Dallas, Texas 75201 11 By: MIKE BRADEN 12 For The Defendant, Philip Morris, et al: 13 Shook, Hardy & Bacon 14 1200 Main Street Kansas City, Missouri 64105 15 By: WILLIAM CRAMPTON 16 Also By: JOHN FRASER 17 ANDREW KALLIANOS, 18 The Witness 19 TAMARA J. BRAUN, 20 Certified Shorthand Reporter 21 ALSO PRESENT: Tim Bishop, Videographer 22 Steve Discher 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 5 1 ANSWERS AND DEPOSITION OF ANDREW KALLIANOS, 2 a witness called by the Plaintiffs, taken before 3 Tamara J. Braun, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in 4 and for the State of Texas, on the 6th day of 5 January, 1997, between the hours of 10:00 a.m. and 6 4:00 p.m.; in the offices of Carrington, Coleman, 7 Sloman & Blumenthal, 200 Crescent Court, Suite 8 1500, Dallas, Texas, pursuant to the notice of 9 counsel for the respective parties as hereinafter 10 set forth. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 6 1 CHANGES MADE TO DEPOSITION 2 Rule 205, "No erasures or obliterations of 3 any kind are to be made to the original testimony as transcribed by the deposition officer. Any 4 changes in form or substance which the witness desires to make shall be furnished to the 5 deposition officer by the witness, together with a statement of the reasons given by the witness for 6 making such changes." Please enter the page number, line number, 7 and the reason for such change or correction. 8 Page/Line Correction Reason for Correction 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ANDREW KALLIANOS MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 7 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. GRISHAM: 3 Q. Dr. Kallianos, would you state your full name 4 for the record, please? 5 A. Middle name included? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. Andrew George Kallianos, K-a-l-l-i-a-n-o-s. 8 Q. Dr. Kallianos, my name is Lynn Grisham. I'm 9 an attorney representing the plaintiffs in a 10 lawsuit that's been filed in Johnson County, Texas 11 against Philip Morris U.S.A. and other entities. 12 Do you understand who I am? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Have you ever had your deposition taken 15 before? 16 A. Not really this kind of a situation. 17 Q. Now, you've had an opportunity to visit with 18 attorneys that represent Philip Morris U.S.A., 19 haven't you? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And I assume that they've explained to you, in 22 general terms, what a deposition is? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. If we could today, I'd like to have a few 25 agreements with you regarding the structure and the MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 8 1 manner in which we conduct the deposition. One of 2 those is I'd like for you to agree to tell me if 3 for any reason you need to take a break so that you 4 won't be uncomfortable. Okay? 5 A. Okay, thank you. 6 Q. Also if there's any question that I ask in 7 such a manner or phrase in such a way that you 8 don't understand it, please tell me that you don't 9 understand so that I can have an opportunity to 10 rephrase the question. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. I don't know how long we'll be here today. 13 I've made some estimates beforehand. But if you 14 need to take a break, please feel free to do that. 15 Okay? 16 A. Thank you. 17 Q. What is your date of birth, sir? 18 A. September 14, 1930. 19 Q. That would make you -- 20 A. 66. 21 Q. -- 66 years old. What is your current 22 residence? 23 A. It's 120 Fox Fire Estates Drive, Waynesville, 24 North Carolina 28786. 25 Q. What is -- what is your occupation there? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 9 1 A. I'm retired, but I do a little part-time 2 teaching in a couple of little community colleges. 3 Q. Do you teach full time at the -- 4 A. No, no. 5 Q. -- colleges? 6 A. Just part time, one course in each. 7 Q. So you may teach a course for an entire 8 semester, but you don't have an entire course load; 9 is that what you're telling me? 10 A. That's right. One course, one course at a 11 time. Maybe it can be one course in each school 12 simultaneously. 13 Q. What topics are you teaching at the two 14 schools? 15 A. Chemistry -- as a general subject, chemistry. 16 But one is a college transfer chemistry, and the 17 other is more directed towards nursing students, 18 med techs, medical emergency people, this kind of 19 -- it's -- 20 Q. How long have you been teaching those classes 21 part time? 22 A. Since September of 1992. 23 Q. When did you retire? 24 A. I retired in -- well, actually I retired -- I 25 left Philip Morris on April 1, 1992. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 10 1 Q. Why did you decide to retire in 1992? 2 A. There were offering a package and I decided it 3 was good deal for me because I was going to retire 4 early. I mean, I would have retired earlier, but I 5 was going to retire early anyway. 6 Q. After retiring on April 1st, 1992, from Philip 7 Morris, have you done any other sort of 8 work--whether consulting work or full-time 9 work--other than the college classes that you're 10 teaching? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Who do you live with at the Fox Fire Estates 13 address? 14 A. With my wife. 15 Q. You and she live alone there? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How long did you work for Philip Morris? 18 A. Just a little over 13 years. 19 Q. Which particular entity did you work for? 20 A. I don't understand what you mean by "entity." 21 Q. As I understand it, there are various entities 22 that have different responsibilities and purposes 23 within the Philip Morris group of companies, one of 24 which is Philip Morris U.S.A. And I was wondering -- 25 A. It was Philip Morris U.S.A. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 11 1 Q. Did you ever work for any other Philip Morris 2 entity, like Philip Morris Europe? 3 A. No. 4 Q. So you began work at Philip Morris around 5 1979? 6 A. Exactly. September of 1979. 7 Q. Where had you been employed prior to that 8 date? 9 A. Liggett & Meyers Tobacco Company. 10 Q. How long had you worked for Liggett & Meyers? 11 A. Almost 22 years. 12 Q. And before that where were you employed? 13 A. I was in school. 14 Q. Where did you attend your post high school 15 college classes? 16 A. Hendricks College. 17 Q. Where is that located? 18 A. In Conway, Arkansas. 19 Q. Hendricks College? 20 A. Hendricks. 21 Q. What degree did you receive from Hendricks 22 College? 23 A. B.A. in chemistry. 24 Q. What year? 25 A. 1951. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 12 1 Q. What other colleges have you attended? 2 A. I attended briefly the University of Arkansas, 3 and then the University of Oklahoma where I got a 4 Master's degree. 5 Q. In chemistry? 6 A. In chemistry. 7 Q. What year did you receive your Master's 8 degree? 9 A. 1956. And then the Ph.D. in 1958 at the 10 university. 11 Q. From what -- 12 A. University of Oklahoma. 13 Q. And I assume your Ph.D. also was in chemistry? 14 A. Yes. All degrees was in chemistry, yes. 15 Q. Was there any specific field of chemistry that 16 you focused upon? 17 A. Yes, organic chemistry. 18 Q. Where were you born? 19 A. I was born in Piraeus, Greece. 20 Q. When did you move from Greece to the United 21 States on a permanent basis? 22 A. In -- well, I came here as a student. 23 Q. A high school or college student? 24 A. Well, I was in high school there. So I came 25 here midyear, January of 1948. And so when I MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 13 1 arrived here, I went to high school. And then that 2 fall I went to college. 3 Q. Where did you complete high school? 4 A. I did not really complete high school. It was 5 more coming to Hot Springs, Arkansas where -- my 6 father's brother was there and attending high 7 school there. And I had intended to attend one 8 more year just to learn the language because I 9 didn't know the language very well. I didn't know 10 it much at all really. 11 But the principal and the teachers felt that 12 I was just too advanced from my schooling in Greece 13 and I would be wasting my time. So they suggested 14 to my uncle that I enroll in a small college, which 15 Hendricks is, and I did that. 16 Q. Was your purpose from the very outset to study 17 chemistry? 18 A. My purpose, yeah, was to study some kind of 19 science. I didn't particularly -- chemistry -- I 20 just wanted to go to a university. That's what I 21 wanted to do. 22 Q. In the course of your studies at the various 23 universities, did you work for any tobacco 24 companies, or was it after your graduation and 25 completion of your Ph.D. that you went to work for MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 14 1 Liggett? 2 A. Yes. After, not before, just after I finished 3 my doctorate then. 4 Q. What what was the focus of your job 5 responsibilities and duties at Liggett? 6 A. I was initially hired as a senior chemist and 7 then was promoted to supervisor of the organic 8 chemistry division until the time I left. 9 Q. Why did you leave Liggett? 10 A. The company was downsizing. And basically 11 they were very kind in letting other tobacco 12 companies come to the research laboratory to 13 interview people. And I interviewed with three of 14 them, I believe, and I chose -- visited Philip 15 Morris and another tobacco company, and I chose 16 Philip Morris. 17 Q. When you worked for Liggett, what city did you 18 live in? 19 A. Durham, North Carolina. 20 Q. During the course of your work as a chemist at 21 Liggett, did you do any research or make any study 22 of ignition propensities of the cigarettes that 23 were manufactured by Liggett? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you do any ignition propensity studies? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 15 1 A. No. 2 Q. What was your primary job responsibility 3 there? 4 A. It was identification -- isolation 5 identification, characterization of materials in 6 tobacco and cigarette smoke, and development of 7 materials that we felt would be useful for, you 8 know, the manufacture of cigarettes. 9 Q. None of those studies related to issues of 10 reduced ignition propensity? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. When you were employed by Philip Morris in 13 September 1979, what department or group did you go 14 to to start work? 15 A. Flavor development. 16 Q. When you were interviewing and deciding which 17 company best suited your desires, did you have the 18 flavor group in mind as an area that you wanted to 19 work in? 20 A. Not particularly, not particularly. I had two 21 children in college at that time, anticipating a 22 third one to start the next year, and I needed the 23 highest paying job that I could possibly get. And, 24 of course, I -- you know, I wouldn't have worked 25 for something that I would be disinterested in. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 16 1 But it was -- while at Liggett, I had done a lot of 2 work in flavors. 3 Q. When you went to the flavor group, who was 4 your immediate supervisor or person that you 5 reported to? 6 A. Immediately, Frank Daylor. 7 Q. Were you a -- what was your designation? Was 8 it that of senior scientist or assistant? 9 A. No. Associate principal scientist. 10 Q. While in the flavor group, what sort of 11 projects did you work on? 12 A. Well, as an associate principal scientist, I 13 was supposed to collaborate with the flavorists and 14 other flavor chemists in the division and help them 15 with whatever problems or projects that they had. 16 And I sort of took a leadership position in -- in a 17 rather complex problem in developing a quality 18 assurance specifications for an in-house flavor 19 product. 20 Q. Prior to you working on that, was there no 21 such structured in-house flavor protocol? 22 A. Oh, yeah, there was. But see, this was 23 something that Philip Morris had developed. It was 24 a complex kind of a thing. I was there. They were 25 trying to determine how they might specify it MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 17 1 because they wanted to make it in-house, and they 2 wanted to make it, you know, reproducibly and have 3 some quality control standards. So they assigned 4 me to that. 5 Q. So that I can understand, Doctor, what you 6 were working on in that regard was -- or were 7 standard specifications for flavorings; is that 8 right? 9 A. For that one particular flavoring. 10 Q. What flavor was that? 11 A. I can't tell you that. 12 Q. Is that a subject of a confidentiality 13 agreement that you've signed or -- 14 A. Well, yeah. I mean, I signed a confidentiality 15 agreement with the company; but it was -- it's a 16 Philip Morris -- it's a non-patented type of a 17 thing. And they -- 18 Q. You feel like it may be a trade secret of some 19 sort? 20 A. Yes, yes. I mean, that's really -- that's -- 21 yes. I couldn't verbalize it quite that clearly. 22 Q. Let me ask you this--and I'll try to not step 23 on your confidentiality or the issues of 24 confidentiality that you have concern with--did the 25 flavoring project that you were referring to have MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 18 1 anything to do with flavorings of cigarettes that 2 may have reduced ignition propensity? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Or sidestream smoke issues? 5 A. Not at that time. 6 Q. Did it develop into the areas of sidestream 7 smoke or environmental smoke? 8 A. Oh, I haven't the slightest idea what they're 9 using it for. All I know, it was a flavor they 10 were making, and I developed specifications for 11 it. And that was the end of my involvement. 12 Q. Do you know why they needed that particular 13 flavor made? 14 A. They need a lot of things, and I don't know 15 why specifically that one; but apparently somebody 16 liked it. 17 Q. Okay. Without asking you specifically again 18 what it was, what you're saying, there was a very 19 specific flavor that you worked on the 20 specifications for? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. But as you sit here today looking back, you 23 don't know particularly why you were asked to 24 develop specifications for that particular flavor? 25 A. I only know the fact that it was a complex MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 19 1 flavor, and it presented a challenge. And they 2 felt that I would be able to deal with that. 3 Q. Do you know who assigned you the project of 4 working on that complex flavor? 5 A. Yeah. It was Mr. Daylor. 6 MR. CRAMPTON: Lynn, let me just -- I'm 7 not familiar with what this flavor is, and I don't 8 know what we're talking about. Maybe after we take 9 a break, I'll talk with him about it, and then 10 maybe you and I can talk about whether there's 11 something there. I just don't know what it is. 12 And I don't think we need to stop at this 13 point. It sounds like it's not related to ignition 14 propensity at all. So we can talk later, if 15 there's an issue. 16 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Is the -- was the project 17 one that was a commercial packaging; in other 18 words, was it something that was intended for 19 commercial sale? 20 A. I think so, but I don't know. Basically what 21 happens is, when you get to flavors, there are very 22 closely guarded types of information; and so you do 23 what you are asked to do and that's it. 24 Q. And you're not always told why you're supposed 25 to do something, right? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 20 1 A. Well, you're told to the extent that it's a 2 nice flavor, we like it, we have this problem and 3 would you do this. 4 Q. During the course of your work with the flavor 5 group -- I take it you were with no other groups in 6 Philip Morris, correct? 7 A. Well, no. The last three years I was. 8 Q. Oh, okay. During your course -- the course of 9 your work with the flavor group, were you ever 10 asked to research or look into flavorings of 11 prototypical cigarettes to improve how they tasted? 12 A. See, I was not a flavorist. This would be a 13 question addressed to the flavorists. And they 14 would come to me and say I know just this kind of a 15 bad taste, this kind of an off thing, so I need 16 something to bring it out, what can we use--this 17 kind of a thing. 18 Q. So you might be asked to fine-tune the flavor 19 or if -- 20 A. Not fine-tune, provide another level -- 21 another level of input. 22 Q. So your input might be just one of several 23 different persons within the flavor group? 24 A. Right. And more technical, more based on 25 science rather than art. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 21 1 Q. Can you give mean an example of a situation, 2 say, for instance, if someone came and said to you 3 we have a -- we have a cigarette prototype, but it 4 has a lot of bite to the taste, would they ask you 5 what technically might be done to soften that, for 6 instance? 7 A. They could. They could. Or some may have a 8 bitter taste. 9 Q. Can you give me an example of some other 10 circumstances where that might happen -- might have 11 happened? 12 A. There were, you know, no outstanding kind of 13 things. There were just small daily types of stuff 14 that -- it's hard to really remember a specific 15 case. 16 Q. Okay. While you were in the flavor group for, 17 I guess, ten years, from 1979 to '89, correct? 18 A. Yeah, about that. 19 Q. While you were there, was your job then to 20 assist others in the flavor group in altering and 21 modifying and improving flavors of cigarettes? 22 A. That was part of my job. I was supposed to 23 wear a lot of hats. And I was supposed to not just 24 help flavor development, but I -- as I attended 25 various meetings that were within the research MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 22 1 department, if I felt that someone could benefit 2 from my advice, information, suggestion, I would 3 proffer that. 4 And sometimes it would be just giving 5 somebody a thing, other times if it were a new 6 person, a young person particularly, out of school 7 and they were given a project, I would sort of 8 mentor them to the extent that they wanted my 9 assistance, and then, you know, they would fly on 10 their own. 11 Q. After you left the flavor group in 1989, what 12 did you move on to do? 13 A. I was assigned then to chemical research. 14 Q. Who was your immediate supervisor there? 15 A. Immediately then was Bob Ferguson. 16 Q. What was your title in the chemical research? 17 A. It was the same title, associate principal 18 scientist. 19 Q. Throughout your tenure in flavoring you were 20 also an associated principal scientist? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Why were you changed and moved over to 23 chemical research? 24 A. I had made a suggestion on a project, and the 25 company liked it. And they said, okay, do it. And MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 23 1 the facilities in flavor development were not 2 suitable for that kind of work so... 3 Q. Can you tell me the topic that it was on? 4 A. It was on SOL-GEL technology. 5 Q. On what? 6 A. SOL-GEL, S-O-L, dash, GEL, G-E-L, technology. 7 Q. Can you tell me what that is in general terms? 8 A. In general terms, it's making jellies out of 9 inorganic oxides. 10 Q. What use or application would it have to 11 cigarette manufacturing? 12 A. These materials are film. Like you can form 13 films with them or you can precipitate out 14 particles that you can use -- for example, in 15 cigarette paper they use calcium carbonate -- that 16 you could use it instead of calcium carbonate. And 17 it would have beneficial -- could potentially have 18 beneficial effects, and we wanted to explore that. 19 Q. So basically the SOL-GEL might have had 20 beneficial effects as a paper additive? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And that was an idea that you came up with? 23 A. Well, no. I attended a meeting where these 24 things were being discussed. And coming back from 25 the meeting, I wrote a report on the meeting. And MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 24 1 at the bottom there, I just sort of expressed my 2 opinion where we might be able to use it. Not that 3 I would want to do it, but the company might want 4 to use it. 5 Q. And then someone -- 6 A. And someone -- yes. 7 Q. -- read that report and offered you the 8 opportunity to go work on that project? 9 A. Yes. They called me in -- the director called 10 me in and said that one of the research fellows 11 there -- well, the research fellow there thought 12 that was a good idea and they would like to 13 initiate some research in that and would I be 14 willing to do it. 15 Now, in reading the Wall Street Journal 16 several years after I retired that say if you're up 17 in age and they offer you a new challenge, don't 18 accept it but -- 19 Q. Regardless of that -- 20 A. Because it was a lot of hard work. 21 Q. Yeah, I bet it was. But you accepted the 22 challenge? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And moved on over to the chemical research 25 area? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 25 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you have the same directorship in the 3 chemical research area that you had had in 4 flavoring? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Who was the director in flavoring? 7 A. I think it was Jim Charles. 8 Q. And then when you moved over to chemical 9 research, who was the -- 10 A. No, I'm sorry. Oh, you meant flavor 11 development at first? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. I thought you meant chemical. Chemical 14 research was Jim Charles. In flavor development it 15 was Leo Meyer in the beginning, and then I think 16 Jim Miracle came close to the end there, after 17 Mr. Meyer's death. 18 Q. Did you finish the SOL-GEL project? 19 A. No, I did not finish it. I think -- I mean, I 20 don't know what's happened to it, but I did not 21 finish it. 22 Q. But during the last three years at Philip 23 Morris U.S.A., that was your project? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. From 1989 to '92? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 26 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Were you solely responsible for working on 3 that project, or did you have other projects 4 ongoing at the same time? 5 A. Again, my function was to provide technical 6 leadership to the research personnel. And so, yes, 7 there were other projects that I would take some 8 time to do, but my focus remained on SOL-GEL. 9 Q. I'm a little bit remedial in chemistry, so 10 you're going to have to tell me again what does the 11 SOL-GEL stand for? 12 A. SOL stands -- is an abbreviation for 13 solution. GEL is, of course, the gel. And 14 basically what you do is you make a solution which 15 will gel given the right, you know, preparation, 16 conditions. 17 It's just like making Jello, but instead of 18 using an organic material, you use inorganic 19 materials. It basically falls in the field of 20 colloid chemistry. 21 Q. That was a little bit out of your area, wasn't 22 it? 23 A. Well, it was out of my experience, but I took 24 a course in colloid chemistry in graduate school. 25 And, of course, cigarette smoke is a colloid. Fog MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 27 1 smokes, shaving cream, those are all colloids. So 2 it wasn't, you know -- but this particular art was 3 relatively new, not the SOL-GEL part of it. I 4 mean, the name was coined in, you know, but making 5 gels was not new -- but this particular class of 6 compounds. 7 Q. Did any of the considerations for the SOL-GEL 8 use relate to ignition propensity reduction? 9 A. I suggested that as a possibility in my 10 memorandum that I wrote following that meeting. 11 Q. Do you remember what -- about when that 12 memorandum would have been written? 13 A. I guess 1989 or maybe a few months before that 14 or something, because it took -- when I came back 15 from the meeting and it took several months before 16 anybody said anything. I guess they mulled it over 17 and who knows how, what... 18 Q. Do you recall who you authored or who you 19 wrote that memorandum to? 20 A. No, I don't recall. But the memorandum 21 usually was addressed to the manager with a copy to 22 the director and a copy to, I don't know, maybe a 23 couple of other people that were in leadership 24 position in research. 25 Q. Who was your manager back then? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 28 1 A. Well, I was still in flavor development at the 2 time, so it was Frank Daylor. 3 Q. And Leo Meyer would have been the director 4 that it was copied to? 5 A. If he was still alive. I don't know when he 6 died. If he was still alive. 7 Q. Was sodium silicate ever used in the SOL-GEL 8 project? 9 A. Yeah. That would be an example of a kind of a 10 SOL-GEL, but it was a gel that's known, you know, 11 to the world, has been known to the world for 12 centuries. I used it in response to Mr. Cohn's 13 publicity. 14 Q. I've gotten off track a little bit. Let me 15 try to get -- 16 A. That's okay. 17 Q. -- back to my outline so we can move along. 18 When you were completing your Ph.D. at the 19 University of Oklahoma, what was your thesis 20 subject? 21 A. It was the synthesis of a specifically labeled 22 compound that's -- with using Carbon 14, which 23 emits -- you know, it's a radioactive carbon 24 specifically labeled. 25 And then I used that in other materials to MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 29 1 feed to rats at the University of Oklahoma School 2 of Medicine Research Foundation. And then we 3 followed the metabolic fate of that -- of the 4 parent material they wanted. It's a flavonoid, and 5 they've used it in cold remedies. And some people 6 suggested that it may have vitamin-like 7 priorities. And that was the focus of my 8 research. 9 And then I tried to identify various 10 locations in the animal where it might concentrate, 11 might become metabolized and what are the metabolic 12 products of it. 13 Q. So really your thesis was the writing of a 14 paper but also research and -- 15 A. No. The research was the focus. 16 Q. Oh, was it? 17 A. The research was the focus. 18 Q. And a paper followed the research? 19 A. The paper is the final obligation. It is for 20 the dissertation. 21 Q. While you were working for either Liggett or 22 Philip Morris, did you conduct any research 23 projects outside the United States? 24 A. Yes. I went to South Africa one time when I 25 was at Liggett & Meyers. And I went to Neuchatel, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 30 1 Switzerland while I was working for Philip Morris. 2 Q. What city in Switzerland? 3 A. Neuchatel. 4 Q. Why did you travel to South Africa during your 5 Liggett tenure? 6 MR. CRAMPTON: I want to pose an 7 objection here on relevance. I'm not going to 8 instruct the witness, but I do want you to know 9 that he has a confidentiality agreement with 10 Liggett, when he left there, not to reveal Philip 11 Morris certain things. And I don't know whether 12 this gets into it or not. I don't know the 13 relevance of it, so I'm going to just interpose an 14 objection. 15 MR. GRISHAM: I'll try to tread lightly 16 on those areas. 17 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) In a general sense, can you 18 give me an idea of why you went to South Africa 19 without revealing, perhaps, the specifics of what 20 you found there? 21 A. Mr. Rupert (phonetics), from South Africa, had 22 bought some -- was a major stockholder, bought some 23 part of Liggett some way. I don't even remember 24 how the connection was. And they felt that they 25 had developed something big and useful in South MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 31 1 Africa. And so I was sent there to learn the art 2 and then bring it back. 3 Q. Did that have anything to do with ignition 4 propensity studies? 5 A. No. 6 Q. About what year was that? 7 A. I'm going to guess, but I don't know. 8 Q. Okay. I don't want to ask you to guess. 9 A. No. 10 Q. That's okay. Now, you mentioned a Mr. Rupert. 11 Who was -- 12 A. I think was -- name was Rupert. He's one of 13 the -- Africa's big industrialists. 14 Q. I see, okay. And did you stay there for a 15 while to conduct the research or was it a visit? 16 A. No. It was just ten days. Just -- 17 Q. Now, what work have you done in Switzerland 18 while working for Philip Morris? 19 A. The work in Switzerland was related to SOL-GEL 20 a little, but with relative to sidestream smoke. 21 Q. When did you travel to Switzerland while 22 working for Philip Morris? 23 A. I don't know. In the '80s sometime, but -- 24 Q. If it related to SOL-GEL, it probably would 25 have been in the late '80s, wouldn't it? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 32 1 A. Well, it might have preceded SOL-GEL. It 2 might have preceded SOL-GEL. I mean, it relates to 3 it in terms that it was a cigarette paper that was 4 being evaluated in that respect. So my mind sort 5 of gets -- you know, I get -- these things just 6 sort of tend to fuse and you forget when. 7 Q. I understand. On how many occasions did you 8 travel to Switzerland for Philip Morris? 9 A. Two occasions. 10 Q. About how long did you stay on each occasion? 11 A. On the first occasion, I stayed two-and-a-half 12 weeks; and on the second unrelated--totally 13 unrelated to that--I went there one day to make a 14 presentation. 15 Well, I mean, I went to Switzerland. But to 16 Philip Morris labs was only one day. I went other 17 places to do other things, not related to this 18 subject at all. 19 Q. Why was -- I take it that back during that 20 time Philip Morris had research labs in 21 Switzerland? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection; when you said 24 Philip Morris, I'm not sure who you're talking 25 about at that point. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 33 1 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Philip Morris Europe, I 2 suppose, had research laboratories in Switzerland 3 back in the late '80s? 4 A. I think so. 5 Q. And on -- you mentioned that on two occasions 6 you visited those laboratories in your capacity as 7 a Philip Morris U.S.A. employee? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. One time was just sort of like a one-day visit 10 while you were attending to other things in 11 Switzerland? 12 A. I went specifically to make a presentation -- 13 I mean, to Philip -- to the lab there, the 14 presentation to them. And that same subject dealt 15 with other people that were suppliers rather than 16 that. 17 Q. Now, the two-and-a-half-week visit, what did 18 you do while you were there? 19 A. It was an odor problem, an odor study, with 20 sidestream smoke. 21 Q. And on the one-day visit, the presentation 22 visit, what was the subject of the presentation? 23 A. Packaging material. 24 Q. Like cigarette cartons? 25 A. Like anything, any packaging. Yeah, cigarette MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 34 1 packaging. The cigarette package, I guess, the 2 pack. 3 Q. Okay, fair enough. Just making sure you 4 weren't talking about wrappers or papers -- 5 A. No, no. 6 Q. -- or packing? 7 A. We're talking about package now. No. 8 Nothing, no cigarette paper wrapper. 9 MR. CRAMPTON: Hard pack or soft pack? 10 A. All of it. I mean, just in general. It was 11 just in general. 12 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Why was -- why were those 13 two particular areas of research ongoing in 14 Switzerland? 15 A. Oh, this -- well, there are certain areas of 16 research that are common to the industry. And I 17 had information that I felt -- well, not I, but I 18 mean, the company felt--the managers and directors 19 and whoever made decisions--that I would -- that 20 they should hear what I have to say. 21 Q. Do you know whether or not any research or 22 experimentation on the issues of ignition 23 propensity were undertaken taken Switzerland? 24 A. No. 25 Q. You don't know or the answer -- MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 35 1 A. I don't know. 2 MR. GRISHAM: Is this a good place for 3 a break? 4 MR. CRAMPTON: Sure. 5 MR. GRISHAM: We've been going about 45 6 minutes. 7 MR. CRAMPTON: That's fine. 8 (Brief recess.) 9 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Dr. Kallianos, during the 10 break you told me that -- perhaps the way I stated 11 the question or something there was a little 12 misunderstanding about the laboratory in 13 Switzerland that you visited on a couple of 14 occasions. That, as I understand it, is not a 15 Philip Morris Europe laboratory, correct? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. Whose laboratory was that? 18 A. It goes by the name F.T.R. 19 Q. What company owns that? 20 A. A Swiss company, but I don't know what it 21 stands for. 22 Q. Did that particular company, to your 23 understanding, do contract work for Philip Morris? 24 A. I don't know. 25 MR. CRAMPTON: I just want to say MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 36 1 F.T.R. is the Swiss manufacturer. 2 MR. GRISHAM: Oh, okay. It's a Philip 3 Morris entity? It's Philip Morris Switzerland? 4 MR. CRAMPTON: It's a subsidiary or, 5 perhaps, an indirect subsidiary of Philip Morris 6 Companies. 7 MR. GRISHAM: Thanks. 8 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Dr. Kallianos, none of your 9 work on SOL-GEL then was done in Switzerland? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Did you ever know of any work done on ignition 12 propensity studies at IMBIFO? 13 A. Who. 14 Q. IMBIFO in Cologne, Germany? 15 A. No, I don't know. 16 Q. IMBIFO, IMBIFO -- I can't pronounce the 17 German -- 18 A. IMBIFO. 19 Q. -- name. Have you ever heard of that 20 organization? 21 A. Vaguely. Vaguely, I recollect IMBIFO, but I 22 don't know what it is or what they do or anything. 23 Q. Do you know in what context you heard about 24 it? 25 A. I guess in casual meetings somebody may have MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 37 1 just mentioned that. But you know they just said 2 Cologne, Germany. I didn't know whether it was 3 Cologne or whatever. 4 Q. Do you know whether or not any ignition 5 propensity work was done in Germany for Philip 6 Morris? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Back when you were with the flavor group, you 9 talked about one of your projects was the 10 development of a standard, or hopefully the 11 development of some sort of standardized testing 12 for flavoring. Did I hear you right? 13 A. No. It was develop specifications for this 14 particular flavorant. 15 Q. Okay. It wasn't flavorings as a whole, it was 16 just this one flavor? 17 A. No, no. Just this one flavor, this one 18 in-house flavor. 19 Q. Did you, in fact, develop that specification? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you do any work in developing any 22 standardized testing for flavorings? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Have you ever worked on Project Tomorrow? 25 A. What is Project Tomorrow? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 38 1 Q. I probably shouldn't -- I shouldn't tell you 2 what it is if you don't know. I'm not being -- I'm 3 not being flippant. I'm just -- I probably -- if 4 you don't recall what it is -- 5 MR. CRAMPTON: It's okay if you want to 6 describe it in general terms and see if he worked 7 on it. The fact is, he didn't. 8 MR. GRISHAM: If he didn't, then I 9 don't need to waste your time or mine or his. 10 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Do you have any patents or 11 have you applied for any patents in the past? 12 A. Oh, yes, I have a lot of patents. 13 Q. Tell me what they are. 14 A. They are patents relating to the development 15 of flavors. I even have a patent for a 16 sustained-release aspirin. Patents for new filter 17 design, and a patent or two on SOL-GEL. 18 Q. During the course of your work at Philip 19 Morris on ignition propensities, did any of your 20 research or research that you were aware of occur 21 outside the United States? 22 A. Literature, you mean? You talking about 23 literature? 24 Q. Any research conducted by Philip Morris on or 25 behalf of Philip Morris? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 39 1 A. No, not to my knowledge. 2 Q. Are you familiar with the CORESTA group? 3 A. I'm familiar with that, yeah. Well, I know 4 CORESTA. There's an international body that's 5 CORESTA. 6 MR. CRAMPTON: You realize that the 7 CORESTA group, when you're talking about I.P., is a 8 subset--a task force--under CORESTA, the larger 9 body? 10 MR. GRISHAM: Right. 11 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) You're familiar with 12 CORESTA? 13 A. CORESTA, yeah. 14 Q. Were you ever a member of CORESTA? 15 A. No. But I attended a couple of CORESTA 16 meetings. 17 Q. About what years did you attend those 18 meetings? 19 A. One time it was when I was with Liggett, and 20 it was -- and one time when I was with Philip 21 Morris, because the meeting was held in Richmond. 22 Q. What is CORESTA? 23 A. I don't know what the acronym stands for, but 24 it has something relative about -- something about 25 corporative research, whatever, tobacco or some MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 40 1 such kind of a thing. 2 Q. Do you know if CORESTA performed any 3 collaborative research involving Philip Morris on 4 the issues of ignition propensity? 5 A. No. 6 Q. The answer is, you don't know? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. When you attended the CORESTA meeting while 9 employed by Philip Morris, did you make any sort of 10 presentation? 11 A. I don't think so. 12 Q. During your employment with Philip Morris, 13 were you a member of any task force or group within 14 CORESTA? 15 A. No. 16 Q. With respect to research that you were 17 involved in at Philip Morris on the issues of 18 ignition propensity, was any of that research or 19 the data or results therefrom shared with other 20 tobacco companies that you're aware of? 21 A. No. 22 Q. When -- first of all, have you ever heard of 23 Project Hamlet? 24 A. Yeah. I've heard of it, but I couldn't know 25 -- I can't remember what it is. I mean, they had MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 41 1 a whole alphabet soup of projects there. 2 Q. Do you remember what Project Hamlet dealt 3 with? 4 A. I don't know if they were ignition propensity 5 then -- 6 Q. I believe that they were ignition propensity. 7 Do you remember projects on ignition propensity? 8 A. Hamlet is the only -- the only word that comes 9 that comes close, familiar with that. 10 Q. When did you first become involved with 11 ignition propensity studies? 12 A. It was a couple of years after I started. 13 Q. Around 1981? 14 A. Maybe a little before that, but something like 15 that. 16 Q. How did you become aware that Philip Morris 17 was studying ignition propensity issues? 18 A. Mr. Meyer, who was the director -- I had just 19 completed the specifications for that flavor, and 20 he broached the subject with me and told me that 21 this -- I think it was in connection with some 22 research at the National Institute of Testing and 23 whatever it is -- the National Bureau of Standards 24 then, and he told me that he would like for me to 25 look into this matter. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 42 1 Q. Specifically what was your assigned task with 2 respect to looking into the matter of ignition 3 propensity? 4 A. It was to visit the National Bureau of 5 Standards and learn the tests that they were using 6 to test for ignition propensity and then evaluate 7 that method. 8 Q. You were a scientist in the flavor group. Why 9 were you asked to do that particular job? 10 A. Well, as I told you before, I was a scientist 11 in the flavor group because that was my anchor, but 12 I did, you know, a lot of -- I had a lot of 13 interaction with various projects that -- just 14 small little things that, you know, may have had 15 some short duration or maybe just very casual 16 contact. 17 And I guess I had been a very creative kind 18 of person. I had a lot of patents. I had been in 19 the industry for quite awhile. I understood -- I 20 was familiar with the cigarettes. And I didn't ask 21 them why did you choose me. All I know is that 22 that's what they said. I mean, I didn't see it as 23 a strange request. 24 Q. Did you travel to Washington and meet with 25 Dr. Krasny? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 43 1 A. Mr. Krasny? 2 Q. Mr. Krasny. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And when you came back, you issued a report? 5 A. I think so. Yeah, I think so. I should 6 have. If I didn't, I should have. 7 Q. I think you did. After that visit was 8 conducted and you issued the report, did you 9 believe that your responsibilities for ignition 10 propensity studies were done, or did you think 11 there was going to be an ongoing project that you 12 would be involved in? 13 A. Well, I was asked to evaluate -- to evaluate 14 that test, you know. And so then I tried to read 15 as much as I could, tried to reflect on it as much 16 as I could and then propose the program, how to 17 evaluate it and what the shortcomings of the tests 18 were, and they said okay. 19 Q. After you completed that evaluation and 20 reported back to Leo Meyer with your thoughts, what 21 was the next thing that you did with regard to 22 ignition propensities? 23 A. Was really develop a procedure that I felt was 24 more appropriate to testing what Mr. Krasny was 25 trying to test. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 44 1 Q. And if I remember correctly, Mr. Krasny had 2 developed a test that measured the weight loss of 3 the cigarette as it burned, as well as the fiber 4 pad that it was placed upon? 5 A. That was at a later time. 6 Q. Oh, was it? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What was the initial test methodology that you 9 evaluated back in the first couple of years of the 10 test? 11 A. The initial that I -- the initial test that I 12 saw Mr. Krasny -- what he was doing, he got a -- 13 some number of fabrics--I don't remember how many 14 there were--half a dozen or so fabrics, and he was 15 then testing cigarettes on those different 16 fabrics. 17 And upon reflection, I decided that really 18 he wasn't testing cigarettes, that he was testing 19 cigarettes and fabrics at the same time and it's 20 too many variables. And there were two variables 21 there, and you can't convolute them very easily. 22 Q. And so in your report back to Leo Meyer, you 23 were somewhat critical of Mr. Krasny's test 24 methodology? 25 A. Oh, I don't know that I -- that I was MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 45 1 critical. I don't know that I reflected upon -- 2 judgmentally like that. I mean, it evolved after 3 what I thought he -- what I observed. 4 Q. And then you set about the task of developing 5 test methodology yourself? 6 A. Well, I -- okay. Here's what they're doing 7 over there, how can it be done better? What were 8 the shortcomings of the test? 9 Well, I looked at exactly what they were 10 doing and tried to duplicate what they were doing. 11 And as I was doing this, I started developing 12 thoughts and started studying the variability of 13 the whole procedure. 14 And as I was learning, I kept reformulating 15 my thought, and eventually concluded that you need 16 very careful control of as many of the parameters 17 as possible. And you can use more fabric, but you 18 have to study one fabric at a time. And I thought 19 just studying one fabric could give you some idea 20 on what is a varietal problem. 21 But using now, basically, the mock-up system 22 that Mr. Krasny had because we were -- at that 23 time, the mental framework was that N.B.S. may 24 develop a test, so we wanted to have as much lead 25 time as possible. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 46 1 Q. The thought at the time was the N.B.S. might 2 come up with a test, and you wanted to have 3 evaluated the test methodology before their test 4 might be accepted as the governmentally adopted 5 test? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. At that point in your work, how much time was 8 being spent upon this test methodology study versus 9 pure flavor studies? 10 A. Oh, it took me just pretty much away from the 11 flavor the bulk of the time. I still had -- you 12 know, I still had some of that, but the bulk of my 13 effort then was -- there were letters to be read, 14 there were, you know, lots of things to be done. 15 Q. Ultimately, did you conclude that there was an 16 appropriate test methodology using a furniture 17 mock-up with certain controls, environmental 18 controls, that could test the ignition propensities 19 of various cigarettes? 20 A. I concluded that you could take the Krasny 21 test and by controlling it very carefully, you 22 could get some information, some data, that I 23 thought he was trying to get at. 24 Q. About when did you come to a conclusion with 25 respect to that area of your research? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 47 1 A. I couldn't tell you. I mean, as I was 2 working, I was learning every day practically. And 3 as we, you know, said this -- you know, this is too 4 great of a variability, what causes it, then how we 5 can deal with that. 6 Q. While you worked at Philip Morris, do you know 7 of Philip Morris testing any of its commercial -- 8 commercially sold cigarettes for ignition 9 propensity? 10 A. Philip Morris, I don't know about -- somebody 11 else testing it, you mean? 12 Q. About Philip Morris testing its own 13 cigarettes, commercial cigarettes, for ignition 14 propensity? 15 A. Yeah. I made some models from Philip Morris 16 brands of tobacco. 17 Q. Were those assigned prototype names or were 18 they assigned other -- 19 A. Prototype names. Because they were made at a 20 very carefully controlled conditions, because we 21 thought that, you know, commercial cigarettes, the 22 way they're made in the manufacturing setting just 23 -- it's just too much -- it's too much 24 variability, no control. 25 And then so if you're really going to study MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 48 1 something, you need to control, you know, the thing 2 so you can have then... 3 Q. So essentially what you did when you tested 4 these prototypical cigarettes was go replicate a 5 blend that was controlled, but it was a replica of 6 the commercial blend? 7 A. Exactly. 8 Q. In the course of your studies, did you ever 9 replicate the Marlboro blend to test for ignition 10 propensities? 11 A. I can't swear to it, but I would think so. 12 Q. And probably during that era, Marlboro was one 13 of the better sellers at Philip Morris, wasn't it? 14 A. Oh, yes. 15 Q. And so logically that might -- that would be 16 one that you would want to look at in the course of 17 your studies of various cigarettes? 18 A. Yes. I would think -- I would think if I made 19 Marlboros, I certainly would have made one that was 20 as close to the Marlboro as is humanly possible. 21 Q. About what time period was it that you were 22 making these prototypical models for ignition 23 propensity testing? 24 A. Well, it was -- it was throughout the duration 25 because we went from the development of this thing, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 49 1 evaluation of various products, various cigarettes, 2 evaluation of the number of parameters and they 3 went -- 4 See, at that time there was talk about 5 legislation -- I don't know what the term is, and 6 so we were just sort of anticipating what might 7 come down the pike. And so we were trying to find 8 out what the variables are so we could control 9 them. 10 Q. Do you recall the prototypical name or number 11 assigned to the Marlboro Light test subject? 12 A. I wouldn't have the slightest idea. We made 13 so many models across -- through my career in 14 research for over the 35 years or so. I could not 15 remember. They were all given some kind of a 16 prefix, a number or something, and they kept 17 recycling these things. And depending on the year 18 that you... 19 Q. Was there any particular code given to it? 20 A. Which? 21 Q. The Marlboro-type prototypical cigarette. 22 A. The semi-works just sort of went sequentially 23 down whatever it is, and they assigned the numbers. 24 Q. Who would assign the numbers? 25 A. Semi-works or whoever it was, the request. In MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 50 1 other words, when the request was made, there was 2 an assignment of the numbers. 3 Q. How was the test data from your prototype 4 testing stored? 5 A. How was it stored? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. I guess in some kind of a report. 8 Q. Do you know if it was mechanically stored or 9 electronically stored on computers? 10 A. I don't think it was electronically stored on 11 computers. Not by me certainly, because at that 12 time I didn't have the facility to do that. It was 13 pen and pencil. Pen and paper, I mean, sorry. 14 Q. As you went about the task of developing these 15 models and testing them throughout the course of 16 your career, did you make quarterly or annual 17 reports on ignition propensities? 18 A. I don't know about quarterly, but I certainly 19 made annual reports. 20 Q. And did it remain true that the bulk of your 21 work -- after this initial two-year period, the 22 bulk of your work was directed then towards 23 ignition propensities throughout your tenure at 24 Philip Morris? 25 A. No. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 51 1 Q. It wasn't that way? 2 A. No, no. Just for a short period of time 3 there. 4 Q. About what period would that have been? 5 A. I said about a couple of years or so, give or 6 take, when I started; and then I stayed with the 7 project for about maybe two, maybe three years, 8 that length of time. 9 Q. Then what did you move on to? 10 A. I moved on to room aroma, sidestream smoke 11 issue. 12 Q. Is there any connection between the issues of 13 sidestream smoke and ignition propensity? 14 A. Well, at that time I did not know that--you 15 know, if there might be a connection. But as I 16 work in these issues, I felt that there may be a 17 commonality either helping both of them or hurting 18 one while helping the other kind of a thing. I 19 didn't know exactly would they be, you know, 20 systemically going together or antithetical. 21 Q. But you begin to see, as your research 22 developed, that there was some correlation between 23 sidestream smoke volume and ignition propensity? 24 A. Well, not necessarily smoke volume, but the 25 odor of the sidestream, the odor of the sidestream. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 52 1 Q. Was mass burn rate a component of both 2 sidestream smoke studies and ignition propensity 3 studies? 4 A. You have to repeat again. 5 Q. Sure. Was the concept of mass burn rate 6 something that was important both to the ignition 7 propensity studies and sidestream smoke? 8 MR. CRAMPTON: I object to that as 9 being vague. I just want to explain why I'm making 10 the objection. It might be -- the mass burn rate 11 is related to a good many areas of research. And 12 that might be the reason there is a confusion 13 there. 14 MR. GRISHAM: Okay. 15 A. I did not measure mass burn rate. 16 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Was mass burn rate a 17 component of any of the research that you did? 18 A. Mass burn rate became a component when 19 Mr. Krasny published -- or not published -- 20 revealed his tests when he used the paper instead 21 of -- went away from the cloth. 22 Q. Went to the fiber pad, the cellulose pad? 23 A. Yeah, the cellulose pad, right. Basically, 24 then mass burn rate became important because, 25 again, we looked at that test. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 53 1 Q. After you were -- had completed the work that 2 you've described in making the prototypes and 3 testing them for the various reasons that you've 4 stated, then you went on to sidestream smoke 5 studies. Did you remain primarily focused on 6 sidestream smoke until you went to the SOL-GEL 7 project? 8 A. No. I worked on sidestream for some period of 9 time. And then I did some -- took pretty heavy 10 responsibility for the packaging study. And it was 11 -- this packaging study that -- you know, that was 12 related with the trip that I mentioned before. 13 Q. All right. Just so I can get an idea of what 14 all you worked on besides the ignition propensity, 15 the early flavoring test, the ignition propensity 16 sidestream smoke, packaging and, ultimately, 17 SOL-GEL, were there any other major projects that 18 you provided input for? 19 A. Yes. The development of the Cambridge 20 cigarette. The Cambridge now is more than one -- 21 they do the zero tar delivery. Was it? 22 MR. CRAMPTON: I'm not sure. I 23 remember there was a product called Cambridge. 24 A. Cambridge zero tar delivery or something like 25 that. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 54 1 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Any other projects? I mean, 2 I know you did a lot of work in the 13 years, but 3 I'm trying to focus on the -- 4 A. No, no major -- that I can recollect, no major 5 projects. But a lot of projects, a lot of little 6 things, you know, be a lot of little questions. 7 Q. Did you do any flavor work on prototypical 8 cigarettes that you or someone was hoping to 9 measure the consumer acceptability of in hopes of 10 developing a more ignition or less ignition prone 11 cigarette? 12 A. Yes. In part of my effort of doing that, this 13 was a coupling thought, if you please, with that to 14 see what is there that can be brought to bear, to 15 anticipate what the government or legislation, 16 whatever might come down the pike. 17 And there was ignition propensity, and there 18 was self-extinguishment. And these were two types 19 of things there. Or they may correlate, but 20 they're really independent -- independent issues. 21 Q. Right. On the issues of -- let me ask this, 22 because I've been phrasing things more in terms of 23 lessening ignition propensity, and you've pointed 24 out that self-extinguishment really isn't an 25 independent concept. Did you do any work on MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 55 1 self-extinguishment? 2 A. Yes, we tried to. 3 Q. Was it part and parcel of the work you were 4 doing on lessening the ignition propensity and 5 studying the concept of lessened ignition 6 propensity? 7 A. It was part and parcel of this project not 8 knowing what kind of requirements may be imposed on 9 the tobacco industry, and so you anticipate. 10 Q. In both the areas of lessened ignition 11 propensity and self-extinguishment then, were you 12 aware of flavor studies undertaken to see what 13 flavoring could be done to enhance the 14 acceptability of the prototypes that had less 15 ignition propensity or perhaps self-extinguished? 16 A. There were flavor studies evaluating the 17 products there, the prototypes, that were being 18 developed, yes. 19 Q. How were those conducted? 20 A. Standard -- standard procedures, I guess. 21 Q. What were those procedures, because I'm not 22 really familiar with them? 23 A. You submit a particular cigarette to a flavor 24 panel. Sometimes it didn't -- it didn't take more 25 than one smoker to tell you that. And usually I MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 56 1 smoked a lot of those and made judgments. 2 But you submitted it to the flavor panel, 3 and you waited to see what kind of an assessment 4 they would make. 5 Q. Typically, when you would have a prototype 6 that, for one reason or the other, you wanted to 7 have a flavor analysis done upon and, therefore, 8 you decided to submit it to the panel, did you have 9 a sheet for them to fill out with comments and make 10 judgment -- subjective judgmental -- 11 A. Yeah. No flavor analysis, but flavor 12 evaluation is really what we were talking about. 13 Analysis is something else now. But evaluation, 14 yeah. They had -- they had different kinds of 15 ballots that they used, depending on the kind of a 16 test. They had different types of tests, depending 17 on what they wanted to test for. 18 Q. Who is the person who primarily put together 19 the ballots and saw that the survey was conducted 20 appropriately and then tabulated the results? 21 A. It was some member of the flavor development 22 division. 23 Q. Do you recall any names? 24 A. Oh, I guess you can take the whole thing 25 because at some point or another just about MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 57 1 everybody -- I mean, I can't say that everybody 2 during my tenure there, but it rotated type of a 3 thing. Statisticians came into play there. 4 Q. When a cigarette prototype was submitted to 5 the flavor panel for a subjective testing, was the 6 flavor panel composed of persons who worked for 7 Philip Morris? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Was any subjective testing ever done, to your 10 knowledge, with participants from outside the 11 company? 12 A. On any cigarette or on the models? Are you 13 talking about any cigarette? 14 Q. I was referring to the models or any proposed 15 cigarette that might have reduced ignition 16 propensity or self-extinguishing characteristics. 17 A. I don't remember of any. I don't remember. 18 Q. Who was the department head or supervisor of 19 the department that dealt with conducting these 20 surveys or panel analysis -- not analysis, you 21 don't like that word. 22 A. No. Because analysis has, you know, a 23 chemical term where you're analyzing components 24 doing the instrumental analysis. 25 Q. Sure. Let me rephrase the question and not MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 58 1 use that word. Who was the person that was the 2 manager of or over the particular department that 3 oversaw the subjective flavor testing? 4 A. For external panels or -- 5 Q. Internal and external? 6 A. Well, internal, it was flavor development, the 7 manager of flavor development. 8 Q. Who was? 9 A. Well, Frank Daylor in the beginning and then 10 it became Mr. Spielberg. 11 Q. What about for outside panels? 12 A. That was a separate division, and I'm trying 13 to remember the name of that division. They went 14 through -- there were several managers. I can't 15 remember exactly who. 16 Q. During the course of the subjective testing of 17 the prototypical cigarettes that we've been talking 18 about that -- in the ignition propensity studies, 19 were there panels available for that sort of 20 testing, if it was deemed necessary, that were 21 outside of the company? 22 A. I think so. 23 Q. Do you know why no outside testing was done on 24 any of those prototypes? 25 A. None of them were really just acceptable for MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 59 1 this kind of a test. It's a different level of 2 testing, and you just follow a progression. 3 Q. And if they're not -- if a particular subject 4 is not acceptable to the internal panel, then 5 logically you don't take it to the outside group? 6 A. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's basically -- if 7 you don't like it, you wouldn't serve it to your 8 friends. 9 Q. Sure. In the course of your studies of 10 ignition propensities, did you evaluate patents or 11 design ideas from persons outside Philip Morris? 12 A. Design ideas, I don't know. No, I don't think 13 about design idea. But patents, any thought from 14 anywhere, yes. Internally, externally, I tried to 15 solicit every possible source. I was -- part of my 16 responsibility was to utilize all available 17 resources, wherever they might been. 18 Q. Can you, from your recollection, tell me about 19 the ideas or patented concepts that you evaluated 20 from persons outside the company? 21 A. Patents, are you talking about patents? 22 Q. Sure or ideas. 23 A. I read patent -- I read patents, yes, but I 24 can't recollect any specific one. 25 Q. I remember you telling me earlier in the MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 60 1 deposition that you recall Dr. Cohns -- is it Cohn 2 or Cohns? 3 A. Cohn, it's C-o-h-n or something like. 4 Q. -- Dr. Cohn's patent, I guess, dealing with 5 sodium silicate? 6 A. Yes, yes. 7 Q. How is it that that issue or the issue of that 8 patent came to your awareness? 9 A. Well, I mean, he made the national news. It 10 was just a tremendous -- I mean, it was a big, big 11 fanfare. It was a big fanfare. 12 Q. Did you conduct any studies or do any work 13 towards evaluating his patent for its applicability 14 to cigarettes that Philip Morris made? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What sort of work did you do? 17 A. I did, as best as I could, whatever was 18 disclosed, however it was disclosed. And he used 19 the term "intumescent," "intumescence." And indeed 20 you have this voluminous kind of like a -- it's 21 almost like a volcanic, you know, opening. I don't 22 know what you call it. Lava -- it's not like lava, 23 but just an ugly, ugly kind of a thing. 24 Q. So what was -- what was the final result of 25 your work on the Cohn patent and its applicability MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 61 1 to cigarettes? 2 A. Well, on the one hand, I'm bringing another 3 issue here, silicates would not be an acceptable 4 kind of a thing. 5 The other was it was just an ugly kind of a 6 situation. And I don't know really that we really 7 pursued it to ignition propensity. I don't 8 remember just -- I mean, I'm sure we did, but I 9 don't know what kind of results we got. But it was 10 just -- it was just something very ugly kind of a 11 thing that just -- 12 Q. It wasn't acceptable? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Was the -- the way the cigarette burned wasn't 15 aesthetically pleasing? 16 A. Oh, it was more than that. It was just ugly. 17 I mean, ugly. And there was flying kind of stuff 18 that could easily -- you could easily end up with 19 perforated trousers in a short period of time. 20 Q. And you mentioned a moment ago that the 21 silicate was not an appropriate substance. Was 22 that because of an issue of toxicity? 23 A. Silic -- you know, there's a term silicosis 24 that they used in mining or someplace and -- 25 Q. Well, was there a fear of toxicity, or was MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 62 1 that something that was born out by research or 2 study? 3 A. No, no. This is my own impression. I don't 4 know that any judgment was made we wouldn't, you 5 know, use sodium silicate or anything like that. 6 But just my own judgment was, gee, who in the world 7 would dare do this, seriously, without, you know, I 8 don't know what. 9 Q. What other patents do you recall 10 investigating? 11 A. Oh, I don't -- I don't remember. There 12 weren't really that many that would allow us, you 13 know, to -- it was more just from our own trial and 14 error kind of a thing using the things that were 15 generally known or maybe revealed in the patent. 16 But there was no -- nothing clad out there that 17 said, hey, if you follow this, you're going to get 18 at it. 19 Q. Throughout your 13-year career at Philip 20 Morris, did -- or were you aware of any prototype 21 being developed that indeed showed propensities of 22 being less prone to ignition on substrate? 23 A. What kind of -- 24 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection; you need to 25 define "substrate" when you use that word. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 63 1 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Okay. Well, tell me what -- 2 when I use the word "substrate," does it have a 3 particular meaning to you? 4 A. Just generically if you use the word 5 "substrate," it could be the mock-up test with the 6 foam in the thing, it could be a sheet of paper 7 thing, it could be the cellulose pad that he used. 8 It could be this table here if -- 9 Q. Okay. Well, in the course of your studies of 10 ignition propensities, what substrate did you 11 study? 12 A. The substrate that was studied was the mock-up 13 model that Krasny had evaluated. We -- mostly flat 14 surface. We did some where we had the crevice, 15 draping the cloth around that, allowing the 16 opening, these things. And, of course, his 17 cellulose pad, the cellulose pad that he did. We 18 put thermocouples underneath the very thin sheets 19 just to measure temperatures. 20 Q. With respect to any of the substrates you just 21 mentioned that were a part of your research, did 22 you become aware of any prototype developed at 23 Philip Morris that had a lower ignition propensity 24 on those substrates, any of those substrates? 25 A. Lower by we measure time to a smaller end MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 64 1 ignition? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you recall which prototypes those were? 5 A. By name? 6 Q. How best you can recall them or by year or by 7 attribute? 8 A. Attribute, we tested banded cigarettes; we 9 tested low porosity; cigarettes of varying 10 porosities; different burn additive, that kind of 11 stuff. And some of them, you know, would reflect a 12 change. 13 Q. Did any of the tested prototypes show a 14 tendency to self-extinguish? 15 A. Yeah. Some of the banded cigarettes would 16 self-extinguish. If you closed the porosity of the 17 paper a lot, then they would -- they would not 18 sustain combustion. 19 Q. Did any of the prototypes that showed a 20 lessened propensity to ignite or, in fact, 21 self-extinguish show promise in the flavor testing 22 that was conducted? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did any prototype come out of your SOL-GEL 25 studies that showed promise for reducing ignition MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 65 1 propensity? 2 A. No. 3 Q. If you were asked today to comment--which I'm 4 asking you to do--on the components of cigarette 5 design that you learned about at Philip Morris or 6 at Liggett in your experience as a chemist produce 7 the effect of lessening ignition propensity, could 8 you list those for me? 9 A. I would tell you that the cigarette paper is 10 the dominate controlling factor. 11 Q. Why so? 12 A. Because primarily of porosity. 13 Q. And does the paper consistency affect the mass 14 burn rate? Let me rephrase that. 15 What about the paper, what effect--physical 16 effect--does the paper have on the cigarette that 17 can make it less prone to ignition? 18 A. If you make a cigarette paper that has no 19 calcium carbonate, it would just not burn. 20 Basically it would have no porosity. 21 Q. And I guess the -- I suppose that the 22 drawbacks to that cigarette are maintaining static 23 burn? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. Perhaps discoloration? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 66 1 A. Yeah. Because you get condensation inside the 2 cigarette because things can't escape. 3 Q. And resistance to draw or difficulty puffing? 4 A. Yes. And, of course, a horrendous problem 5 with the flavor in the mouth. I mean, it's just 6 totally, totally unacceptable. 7 Q. Is there any way to analyze flavor? We used 8 that word -- or I used that word inappropriately 9 earlier, but is there any way to apply chemical 10 analysis to flavorings? 11 A. They are very, very complex. And, yes, you 12 can get an analysis, but what does it mean. In 13 other words, you cannot look at an analytical list 14 and say this is going to taste good and this is 15 going to taste bad. You cannot look at that. 16 Q. Can you look at an analytical list and by 17 virtue of some of the components of the list make a 18 pretty good judgment that a cigarette's going to 19 taste bad or good? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Can the analytical data be used for comparison 22 purposes? 23 A. What kind of a comparison? 24 Q. Well, comparison to other prototypes. In 25 other words, can you analyze one particular MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 67 1 cigarette blend or paper type and compare it to 2 another analysis that you've done of one, perhaps, 3 that has a good flavor? 4 A. I don't know that you have the ability to do 5 that. You can't do that. There's a myriad of much 6 compounds in there in varying proportions. 7 Q. What components does one view in a chemical 8 analysis of a cigarette? 9 A. Usually you get the total particulate matter, 10 the amount of water, you get nicotine, carbon 11 monoxide, oxyhydrogen NO. 12 Q. Tar? 13 A. Well, when I said T.P.M., that's -- T.P.M. is 14 total particulate matter. And then you have the 15 water, and you subtract the water from that and 16 whatever else, I don't know, you want to subtract. 17 Of course, carbon monoxide and NO are gases, 18 so you have to analyze for the gases separately. 19 Q. And what -- are you telling me that from those 20 analytical results you really can't make a flavor 21 judgment about a cigarette? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. What sort of equipment do you use to make an 24 analysis like that, spectrometer? 25 A. No. Depending on what you're going to MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 68 1 analyze. Basically T.P.M. is gravimetric by weight 2 or you use a Carl Fisher reagent. In nicotine you 3 use specific reagents for the nicotine. And then 4 the gases, of course, you measure them 5 independently. I don't know exact procedure that 6 they use, but I think probably gas chromatography. 7 Q. I'm going to shift gears and sort of go back 8 to where we were. A moment ago we were talking 9 about components of cigarette design that can 10 reduce ignition propensity. And it was your 11 opinion that the paper was the overwhelming factor 12 in design to producing a less ignition prone 13 cigarette? 14 A. In my experience, yes. 15 Q. In your experience. What modifications to 16 commercially produced cigarettes in the 1980s and 17 early '90s were made to the paper of the prototypes 18 to alter ignition propensity? You mentioned 19 calcium carbonate, I think? 20 A. No. I mean, these are part of our studies, 21 you know. And all I'm saying is that if you remove 22 calcium carbonate, this -- we know this from 23 experiments and from the paper people. If you 24 remove calcium carbonate, you have no porosity and 25 that's it. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 69 1 Q. Was there any other means of altering porosity 2 through paper? 3 A. Well, you can perforate it, you know, 4 electrostatically or mechanically, I guess. 5 Q. And what effect did that have? 6 A. Well, that tends to, you know, give you some 7 porosity, but the relative amount is just so 8 small. 9 I mean, if you use this surface area here, 10 as an example, for example, and say this is the 11 amount of porosity that a paper has, and then you 12 take a nonporous paper--totally nonporous 13 paper--and you perforate it and still have 14 something that can hold tobacco, you may have 15 surface area of maybe this cup, this much or this 16 much, or maybe -- I don't know, maybe what this 17 computer -- just a small fraction of it. 18 Q. So that wasn't an acceptable means of 19 improving flavor? 20 A. It's a way of doing something if you want to 21 do something small, some tweak, but not a way of 22 really doing anything that would be substantive. 23 Q. What about additives to the paper? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Were those means of reducing the ignition MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 70 1 propensity? 2 A. Yes. There are -- there are certain salts 3 that you can add to the paper that would keep it 4 from burning. 5 Q. What are those salts? 6 A. What did we evaluate? I had a list of things, 7 but I can't remember exact salts. But you have to 8 add heavy loading. You can't add just a little 9 bit. You have to add a heavy loading of it. 10 Phosphates, for example, are one general example. 11 Q. Citrate? 12 A. Well, no. Citrate, it would be added at a 13 very small, small level. I mean, to control -- I 14 don't think -- I think it's used as an additive to 15 make the paper burn uniformly. Because if you 16 don't have something like that, the paper, you 17 know, just sort of makes an ugly ash, you know, 18 instead of just having look... 19 And you may feel that the ugly ash is just 20 appearance, but if it's not properly formed, it can 21 fall off and burn you or do whatever. 22 Q. Then, in your experience and from your 23 recollection, there was never any work done on the 24 paper of the cigarettes in the '80s or early '90s 25 that produced an acceptable prototype? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 71 1 A. Oh, you're out of my period of time, that's 2 right. 3 Q. Now, in the '80s and early '90s, weren't you 4 -- you were involved in that project, right? 5 A. Not ignition propensity, no. 6 Q. Just so that I'm clear, what period of time 7 were you involved in ignition propensity? 8 A. I said somewhere '80, '81--somewhere in that 9 frame--for about two or three years or something 10 like that, and then maintained a casual interest 11 after that. But it never left my mind; and if I 12 had any thought or anything like that, I would jot 13 it down. 14 Q. And during the SOL-GEL period, that was -- 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- primarily ignition propensity again, wasn't 17 it? 18 A. I saw it as a possibility for ignition 19 propensity and/or sidestream smoke control. 20 Q. What effect, if any, did your research show 21 that the width of tobacco cut had on ignition 22 propensity? 23 A. Cut width? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. It was a small, just a small effect. We're MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 72 1 measuring time, and I would say seconds. 2 Q. Was there any other method that you used or 3 were familiar with to measure ignition propensity 4 other than the time factor? 5 A. The time factor. 6 Q. And were you familiar with an ignition 7 propensity index that sometimes was used by 8 scientists at Philip Morris to determine or to 9 quantify ignition propensity? 10 A. To me, ignition propensity index means the 11 time to ignition. That's what it means. 12 Q. What was the particular goal or mission, that 13 you were aware of, at Philip Morris with respect to 14 producing ignition propensity -- lessened ignition 15 propensity cigarettes? 16 A. Is to develop models that would meet any 17 number of criteria that would anticipate any 18 government regulation; or if we developed a model 19 that would really do something, then maybe do 20 studies -- more realistic kind of studies. 21 In other words, move away from this mock-up 22 that's really not realistic. And I don't know, 23 it's just check and see what happens out in the 24 real world. 25 Q. Do you know of anything that motivated Philip MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 73 1 Morris U.S.A. to conduct these ignition propensity 2 studies other than the potential for governmental 3 regulation? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. A little bit more specifically, did -- excuse 6 me. 7 MR. GRISHAM: Y'all want to take a 8 break to order lunch or whatever. 9 (Brief recess.) 10 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) We talked earlier, Doctor, 11 about the goals of the ignition propensity studies 12 in general terms. Do you recall if there was a 13 specific goal in terms of the prototypes that were 14 being tested to get them to meet--like, to not 15 ignite the mock-up until after three or four 16 minutes or something of that nature? 17 A. I don't know if there was a specific goal, but 18 intuitively, one would say that if it took a long 19 time, that it could be a potential candidate. 20 Q. And the longer the better, correct? 21 A. Well, it depends on how you attain that. 22 Because if cigarettes self-extinguish, then you 23 have infinity. I mean, if they just can't sustain 24 combustion at all, then you just have infinity. So 25 that's pretty long. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 74 1 Q. It is. As I recall the index, essentially it 2 was from zero to 10 minutes? 3 A. Just arbitrarily cut off at 10. 4 Q. And typically would -- during that time 5 period, would a cigarette burn the full length of 6 its tobacco rod in about 10 minutes? 7 A. No, no. 8 Q. About how long did it take on an 84-millimeter 9 cigarette? 10 A. On the mock-up? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. It would take more than 30 minutes sometimes. 13 Q. Was there a time at which, on the continuum, 14 that intuitively you felt like a cigarette would be 15 a candidate or would not, based upon the length of 16 time that it took to reach ignition? 17 A. I don't quite understand. 18 Q. I'll try to rephrase it better. Was there a 19 -- some specific time on the temporal continuum 20 that was judged to be good versus poor in terms of 21 ignition propensity? 22 A. I don't know about good or poor, but if it 23 were within the 2 or so -- 3 minute time frame, 24 you'd say that's just like any other cigarette. If 25 it were longer, then you would say that it could MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 75 1 have possibilities. 2 Q. When you were conducting the tests on the 3 prototypes, were those conducted on the Krasny type 4 furniture mock-up? 5 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection. I'm 6 objecting to the reference to Krasny type because I 7 don't think that's clear. 8 MR. GRISHAM: Okay. Let me rephrase it 9 so that I'm not being unfair. 10 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) In the research that you 11 conducted on the prototypes, were those conducted 12 on a furniture mock-up much like the one that the 13 National Bureau of Standards was testing? 14 A. Yes. The only thing we had selected one 15 cloth. 16 Q. And were they conducted under a hood? 17 A. It was conducted under very carefully 18 controlled conditions, very carefully. 19 Q. Things like draft was controlled? 20 A. That was the most obvious things that we 21 observed with Krasny's initial testing. 22 Q. One thing that affects a cigarette's ignition 23 propensity is oxygen availability? 24 A. Well, that's -- yes. No oxygen, no 25 combustion. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 76 1 Q. Sure. And did the control parameters of the 2 tests performed on the prototype deal in any 3 fashion with the humidity? 4 A. Our laboratories are controlled where we do -- 5 cigarettes are conditioned to -- under specific 6 humidity conditions and the labs are under 7 controlled humidity conditions. 8 Q. What about things like barometric pressures or 9 anything? 10 A. We have no control over barometric pressure. 11 Q. Were there any other test parameters or 12 components of the test procedure besides those that 13 you can recall offhand? 14 A. Getting a well lit cigarette. 15 Q. How was the ignition -- initial ignition of 16 the cigarette accomplished in the tests? 17 A. Using a lighter, electric lighter, and then 18 allow it to reach a static -- a good static hold. 19 I can't remember the time lapse there, but there 20 was a time lapse. But we establish a 21 well-established cone and then move from there. 22 Q. And, generally, was the cigarette then placed 23 on the mock-up? 24 A. There were four cigarettes at a time. 25 Q. Four at a time. And how was a determination MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 77 1 made that ignition of the mock-up had occurred? 2 A. You were looking at it, you know, and you 3 could see. Whenever you saw that there was 4 ignition, you would pull that cigarette off. 5 Q. What brought about the concept of performing 6 crevice testing? 7 A. Krasny. Krasny was -- it was Krasny's 8 basically. I can't remember the exact situation, 9 but one was a flat surface and, of course, some was 10 visible. But, you know, if people can see things, 11 you know, they are not going to leave them open no 12 more. Sometimes you get fires with things, you 13 know, sleeping on a couch or something like that. 14 So the crevice then was, you know, this -- he clued 15 us to this kind of a thing. Not that we were 16 oblivious to it, but -- okay. 17 Q. If the goal was, as you've suggested, that you 18 were to try to develop tests protocols and 19 standards that might give some advance warning of 20 any proposed National Bureau of Standard testing, 21 then obviously you were following what he was 22 doing, correct? 23 A. Well, yeah. But we weren't -- we weren't 24 bugging him or anything like that. 25 Q. I understand. But you were trying to MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 78 1 replicate things that he was working towards also 2 in terms of standardized test methodology? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Before your crevice testing, had Philip Morris 5 conducted any other ignition propensity crevice 6 testing that you're aware of? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. How was the crevice mock-up constructed? 9 A. Basically we took the flat and we made a 10 plywood -- this kind of a thing, where it looked 11 like a "T," you know. We would put foam there, 12 drape the cloth, continue it over the thing, and 13 then, you know, we tried to scoot the whole -- the 14 foam rubber and everything to bring -- to have a 15 crevice there; and then we, you know, contoured the 16 cloth so that we could place a cigarette in that 17 sleeve, if you please. And then sometimes would 18 drape it a little more, sometimes a little less, 19 just tried to alter the air, you know, availability 20 to the cigarette. 21 Q. Is the primary component of the crevice that 22 affects the ignition propensity the oxygen control? 23 A. I don't know. I mean -- 24 Q. In conducting the prototype tests that we 25 talked about earlier, when you replicated tobacco MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 79 1 blends from commercial cigarettes for the control 2 and placed them on the flat mock-up, what was the 3 typical time to ignition--the range of time to 4 ignition--on the commercial prototypical 5 cigarettes? 6 A. I can't remember. But I think we had 7 something like 1-1/2 or something like a 1.2, 1.3 8 minutes range to about 2, 2-1/2 or some such thing 9 as that. And basically we were in that time frame, 10 in that population. 11 Q. How was that different in the crevice testing 12 if, in fact, crevice testing of those type 13 cigarettes were conducted? 14 A. The crevice testing was done differently, you 15 know, because we -- you know, we draped the thing 16 and we did not -- you know, we did not look at 17 that. We did it just to see what might happen, you 18 know. And the thing that surprised us was that it 19 was different, you know -- that it was different. 20 Q. How was it different? 21 A. To the best of my recollection, you couldn't 22 see any smoke coming out of the cigarette. 23 Q. What were the ranges of ignition times in the 24 crevice testing? 25 A. Oh, I don't know that we actually even did a MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 80 1 systematic study on that. I don't know that we did 2 a systematic study. 3 Q. When the crevice testing was conducted, what 4 was the stated purpose? 5 A. I don't know. I mean, perhaps it was does the 6 flat surface mock-up -- does that reflect or come 7 close to reflecting a real world situation, you 8 know, and the judgment, you know, to be made there. 9 Q. In your experience and education and 10 background, are you aware of people making 11 allegations that cigarettes can smolder for 45 12 minutes to an hour or hour-and-a-half before a fire 13 is noticed? 14 A. On the cloth or -- well, Krasny showed this. 15 He had a film where he showed a chair, I think it 16 was--a stuffed chair--where he mentioned a very 17 long period of time. I can't remember if it was 45 18 minutes, an hour or some such thing. 19 Q. In your experience as a researcher, have you 20 witnessed that phenomenon? 21 A. No. Other than just seeing him film. 22 Q. Just so that I'm clear on the terminology, 23 when you're talking to me and the ladies and 24 gentlemen of the jury here today about time to 25 ignition on the furniture mock-up, you're not MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 81 1 referring to a flaming conflagration, obviously? 2 A. Absolutely not. 3 Q. What you're referring to, as I understand it, 4 is the point where the substrate being tested 5 ignites? 6 A. You see a smolder. You see a smolder. That's 7 right, you see a smolder. 8 Q. And you're not today telling us how long it 9 might take for such a smolder to reach a 10 full-fledged conflagration or if, in fact, it 11 would? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. And you haven't made any studies of that 14 phenomenon, have you? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. And you don't know on any particular or given 17 substance how long it would take a smolder to reach 18 a flame? 19 A. No. I mean, that's correct, I don't know. 20 Q. Have you studied any literature or data from 21 real world fire experience to enlighten you as to 22 what the others in the industry, what their ideas 23 are on times to ignition and times to conflagration 24 from cigarettes? 25 A. To the best of my -- to the best of my MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 82 1 ability, I don't -- I guess it's almost like a 2 situation by situation kind of a thing. There's 3 just no -- I've not seen any standardized studies 4 with a specific kind of a thing; but just case by 5 case, kind of almost antidotal rather than 6 scientifically derived. 7 Q. Were you, in the course of your work at Philip 8 Morris, ever exposed to any individuals at Philip 9 Morris who studied fire statistics, fire loss 10 statistics, things of that nature? 11 A. Was I exposed to individuals? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. No. I looked at some of that. 14 Q. Were you aware of any others, besides 15 yourself, who looked at those sort of things? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. In what context did you make a study or look 18 at fire losses and fire loss statistics? 19 A. It was just part of my job to know as much as 20 I possibly could about what I was studying. And if 21 that had any clues that I would be able to use, 22 then -- to whatever extent, then... 23 Q. Where did you go to get the information to 24 make studies of fire loss experience? 25 A. We had a library we could tap. We could tap MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 83 1 med line, chem line, tox line. I mean, just... 2 Q. What did you find from your studies of the 3 statistics? 4 A. Specifically in what respect? 5 Q. With respect to fire loss related to 6 cigarettes, mishandling of cigarettes and smoking 7 paraphernalia, such as matches and lighters? 8 A. I don't remember the exact numbers. But there 9 were statistics there that of general fires, fires 10 attributed to cigarette smoking, fires attributed 11 to matches. I don't remember matches, but I mean, 12 I wouldn't have focused on that necessarily but... 13 Q. How did that, then, relate to your job of 14 hoping to develop a cigarette that was less prone 15 to ignite the test substrate? 16 A. The statistics was only curiosity. I would 17 read very carefully whatever it was. And any 18 situations that were described explicitly, I would 19 do pretty much as you asked--about how long does it 20 take, what happened, is there anything there that 21 -- anything there that sheds any kind of -- can I 22 read between the lines, can I imagine. 23 And usually you get stimulated in some of 24 these things, and your mind sort of becomes a 25 little more fertile. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 84 1 Q. Was there any discussion that you overheard at 2 Philip Morris about creating a cigarette that was 3 less prone to ignite in real world situations 4 versus the mock-up test situations that we've been 5 talking about throughout your deposition? 6 A. Let me understand this question. You asked if 7 I were aware or if I had any conversation about 8 Philip Morris having an interest -- 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. -- in developing? I don't know if I heard it, 11 but I felt that, yes, that would be -- that would 12 be a nice thing if we could develop one. I mean, 13 we're in the business of selling cigarettes. We're 14 in the business of making money. And my salary 15 depends on that, and my next raise depends on that. 16 Q. And so if, in fact, such a thing as a reduced 17 ignition propensity cigarette could be done, you 18 hoped to do that for, at least yourself -- 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. -- for purposes other than just meeting any 21 proposed governmental testing? 22 A. Correct, yeah. I mean, the humanistic aspects 23 there, you know. Yeah, they were a strong 24 stimulant to me to just work hard and long. 25 Q. And if such a product existed and it weren't MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 85 1 being marketed, that would be morally wrong; would 2 you agree? 3 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection. 4 A. It depends on your morals, I guess. I don't 5 know. 6 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Would it be morally wrong to 7 you? 8 A. Yes, it would. 9 Q. During your tenure at Philip Morris for the 13 10 years that we've talked about, were you aware of a 11 specific document retention policy that was in 12 place at Philip Morris U.S.A.? 13 A. What do you mean by "document retention"? 14 Q. Any policy whereby documents were either 15 stored for a number of years or they were destroyed 16 after a certain time or different types of data was 17 destroyed or saved forever, whatever the answer 18 might be. 19 A. Yeah. I don't know that anything was 20 arbitrarily destroyed. We -- as far as I know, the 21 central files were there and I could search them 22 for, I guess, times zero. I don't know. 23 Q. As far as you know, any document that emanated 24 from research that was conducted would have been 25 kept? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 86 1 A. I don't know that, sir. I mean, I don't 2 know. I would think so. 3 Q. But in terms of your knowledge, you don't know 4 of any specific policy directed towards destruction 5 of any specific type of document? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Or destruction of broad categories of 8 documents after a certain period of time had 9 elapsed? 10 A. I can't answer that. I cannot answer that 11 because there are some informal kind of things like 12 -- I don't know, an analytical request, that the 13 request is really of no consequence. 14 Q. The result is what's important? 15 A. The result is what's important. 16 Q. Are you aware of any circumstances whereby 17 information or data gleaned from ignition 18 propensity research was routed between chemists 19 homes as opposed to through the research facility 20 at Richmond? 21 A. That it was what now? 22 Q. Routed to the homes of chemists or managers or 23 supervisors? 24 A. No. 25 Q. In fact, I assume the structure of authority MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 87 1 was such that reports about testing and data 2 collected went to your supervisor, correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. How often did you meet with others conducting 5 ignition propensity research during that initial 6 period of time that you worked on the prototype? 7 A. Which others? 8 Q. Okay. From my experience, I believe there are 9 others who worked on Project Hamlet, Barbro 10 Goodman? 11 A. Oh, Barbro Goodman and I, yes, worked 12 together. 13 Q. Sure. And Randall Greene? 14 A. Correct, yes. 15 Q. And there were others who may have worked at 16 some time or the other on the issue of ignition 17 propensity. Was there a time when the people 18 working on the project of ignition propensity from 19 the varying groups would meet? 20 A. Randy Greene and I worked collaboratively, and 21 Randy Greene reported to Barbro Goodman. So 22 basically Randy was the technician that was doing 23 most of the manual kind of experimentation. He 24 would report them to Barbro. There was no 25 particular routine schedule to meet but, you know, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 88 1 we talked whenever was necessary. 2 Q. Was Barbro Goodman at that time period on the 3 same management level as yourself in a different 4 department or were -- was there a difference? 5 A. No, no. My level was a technical ladder. 6 Okay. And she was more in management or 7 administrative kind of a ladder. But she was, I 8 think, a group leader or some such thing as that. 9 Q. How would that have equated to your ladder, or 10 is there no way really to correlate the two? 11 A. I don't know. It's apples and oranges kind of 12 a thing, you know. 13 Q. Okay, fair enough. When you and she worked on 14 a particular issue, like ignition propensity, you 15 were primarily working on the technical aspect and 16 she was more working on the administrative aspect 17 of it? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. I want to talk a bit about corporate structure 20 and try to benefit from your experience and 21 recollection from a few years ago. I want to hand 22 you a poster board that, if you can, could you hold 23 up -- and we don't want to get it in front of 24 Mr. Crampton. Can you hold it up? 25 MR. CRAMPTON: If it's okay for Tammy, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 89 1 I suppose it's all right. Let's go off the record 2 for a minute and see if we can figure out a way to 3 set this thing up. 4 (Discussion off the record.) 5 (Kallianos Exhibit No. 1 was 6 marked for identification.) 7 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Dr. Kallianos, I have, after 8 the -- or during the break put before you Exhibit 1 9 which is an organizational chart that I've created 10 from information I received in discovery in this 11 case and in exchange of documentation. 12 And what I'd like to do with you is go 13 through Exhibit 1 and see if, in fact, it comports 14 with your recollection in terms of the people and 15 their positions within the company during your 16 tenure at Philip Morris. 17 MR. CRAMPTON: I just want to interpose 18 an objection that we don't have anything in the 19 record now that establishes that this is an 20 authentic org. chart or that it's accurate in any 21 way. 22 As I understand it, it's -- you put it 23 together from reviewing several documents. I don't 24 have any problem with you using it, I just want it 25 to be clear that we would not -- that we don't want MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 90 1 it to be represented as something that Philip 2 Morris put together. 3 MR. GRISHAM: Go ahead and mark 4 Exhibit 2 while we're at it. 5 (Kallianos Exhibit No. 2 was 6 marked for identification.) 7 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Dr. Kallianos, I also want 8 to hand you Exhibit No. 2, which I'll represent to 9 you I believe is the components of that 10 organizational chart in a page by page form, and 11 they've been put together on that chart. And if 12 there's any discrepancy as we go through this, 13 perhaps we'll find it together. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. On page 2 of Exhibit 2 -- 16 MR. CRAMPTON: I still have the same 17 objection. 18 MR. GRISHAM: Sure, I understand. 19 MR. CRAMPTON: I don't want you to 20 suggest that Dr. Kallianos could, as he's looking 21 at the chart and through this document, identify 22 any inaccuracies or any problems with your chart. 23 MR. GRISHAM: Okay. I think he 24 probably could, but I'm not requiring that of him. 25 MR. CRAMPTON: I don't want to put him MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 91 1 to that burden. 2 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) The record will be clear, 3 because these are going to be exhibits at trial and 4 if there's any discrepancy, we can sure work 5 through them. 6 But I want to go down the page with you and 7 we can point up to the people on the exhibit and 8 perhaps get some information about who they were 9 and what their functions were. On Bates number -- 10 last four digits, 8718. 11 A. Where am I? I don't see it. 12 MR. CRAMPTON: The Bates number is 13 right there. 14 A. Oh, right there. 15 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Yeah. There is a number of 16 persons with their photographs listed, and at the 17 top of the chart is an individual purporting to 18 hold the office of the chief executive named George 19 Weisman? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And likewise on the chart, George Weisman's at 22 the top there; do you see that? 23 A. Yes. 24 MR. CRAMPTON: Does this have a 25 particular date in time? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 92 1 MR. GRISHAM: That's what I was going 2 to get to because I don't know. Mine's not dated. 3 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Do you recall Mr. Weisman 4 being the C.E.O. or holding any other position with 5 the company during your tenure at Philip Morris? 6 A. I remember the name. I wasn't in the same 7 traveling circles with him. I -- so I just 8 remember the name. 9 Q. So you are aware he was in some capacity at 10 Philip Morris while you worked there? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Just below him in the corporate tree are two 13 individuals purporting to be the president and the 14 vice-chairman of the board, Clifford Goldsmith and 15 Ross Millhiser. Were you aware of those 16 individuals being with the company? 17 A. Clifford Goldsmith, yes. I mean, very 18 clearly, distinctly clearly. Millhiser, the name 19 is familiar. I just can't remember the... 20 Q. As the chart progresses in a downward fashion, 21 there's an individual next named Hugh Cullman who 22 was the -- purported to be the group executive 23 vice-president and C.E.O. of Philip Morris U.S.A. 24 Do you recall Hugh Cullman being with the company 25 while you worked there? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 93 1 A. I remember the name of Hugh Cullman. 2 Q. Again, these are not people you necessarily 3 had any direct involvement with? 4 A. No. I shook hands with Mr. Goldsmith if -- 5 yeah. 6 Q. Okay. Next in the chain of responsibility is 7 a Mr. Pollack; is that correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Mr. Shepard Pollack was the vice-president of 10 Philip Morris Incorporated and the president and 11 C.E.O. of Philip Morris U.S.A., correct? 12 A. That's what it says, yes. 13 Q. Do you recall that being, in fact, the 14 circumstances while you were employed there? 15 A. I remember Mr. Shepard (sic) having some 16 corporate responsibility, yes. 17 Q. You don't recall specifically what it was? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Next, progressing downward in the chain of 20 responsibility as listed on Bates number 8715 is 21 Wallace McDowell. 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. And he was purported to have vice-presidential 24 responsibilities at Philip Morris U.S.A.? 25 A. Yes. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 94 1 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection. You know, 2 you're talking about the stuff, you've created this 3 chart. You're talking about next one down in 4 responsibility. The witness can't tell you whether 5 that's true or not. I mean, I don't have any 6 problem with you asking about all these people. 7 The thing that concerns me is any effort 8 that you might be making to have this witness tell 9 you that this chart is accurate. 10 THE WITNESS: The hierarchy. 11 MR. CRAMPTON: As long as I can have a 12 continuing objection on that, then we'll be okay. 13 Is that all right? 14 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah. I got this 15 information from discovery. I didn't go dream it 16 up or make it up. 17 MR. CRAMPTON: I understand that. I 18 understand. 19 MR. GRISHAM: And so I'm not asking him 20 to affirm the order. 21 THE WITNESS: The hierarchal order, I 22 just don't know. I don't know. 23 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah. And I don't want 24 to be unfair to him. What I do want to know is go 25 through each one. I want to find out if he knows MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 95 1 them and if he knows what they did particularly. 2 And this chart was the best visual method that I 3 could find to do that. 4 MR. CRAMPTON: All right, that's fine. 5 I just have a continuing objection as to the 6 purported accuracy of the chart. 7 MR. GRISHAM: Okay. Your objection is 8 noted. 9 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Where were we, with 10 Mr. McDowell? 11 A. I remember the name. 12 Q. If I wanted to talk with someone that would be 13 able to identify these individuals and provide me 14 with information to either legitimate this chart or 15 tell me that it's a bunch of bunk, who would I talk 16 to find that out? 17 A. I don't know. I guess it would have to be 18 somebody who has been with the company at some high 19 level. 20 Q. Back during the 1980s perhaps? 21 A. Early, yeah. 22 Q. Okay. 23 MR. CRAMPTON: You know, if you wanted 24 I could also take a look into it myself, and we 25 might be able to stipulate if you give us a chance MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 96 1 to look at it. 2 MR. GRISHAM: Be happy to. 3 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) The next level, at least 4 according to my chart, is Mr. Robert Seligman? 5 A. Yeah, Dr. Seligman. 6 Q. Okay. We may be getting now to a level of 7 people you remember on a -- that you may have known 8 on a first-name basis, correct? 9 A. He was the V.P., an age difference I 10 respected, and being European born, it was 11 Dr. Seligman. 12 Q. But Dr. Seligman was someone, nevertheless, 13 you may have seen on an ongoing basis in and about 14 your work in the office there? 15 A. Yes. I met him when I came to -- for a 16 personal interview. 17 Q. Oh, good. He was one of the people you met 18 when you began interviewing at Philip Morris? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And he was the vice-president of research and 21 development for Philip Morris U.S.A.? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. At least in 1979 when you came on board? 24 A. Yes. That's what we are talking about. He 25 has been, at some point in time, this. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 97 1 Q. Then, under Dr. Seligman, at least according 2 to the chart that I've created--which is under the 3 R&D portion of Philip Morris U.S.A.--going to the 4 next page there are five levels: those consisting 5 of new products, process development, research and 6 extramural studies, applied research and laboratory 7 administration, according to our chart. 8 Do you, in fact, remember those groups or 9 divisions existing? 10 A. I remember these five people. 11 Q. Okay. Leo Meyer, in fact, was the director 12 over the division that you worked in? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you work on any ignition propensity issues 15 with the other four gentlemen that are listed at 16 that level of directorship? 17 A. No. Well, Walt Gannon was a person that I met 18 also and was really director when I first got in 19 there, and then he got shifted. 20 Q. Mr. Osdene's level there or his division 21 mentions that it's extramural studies. What was 22 that? 23 A. He was in another building. 24 Q. So you don't know what extramural studies 25 referred to? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 98 1 A. (Witness shakes head). 2 Q. Moving down under Walt Gannon is a designation 3 for an area, Project Delta. Do you know what 4 Project Delta was? 5 A. I cannot remember exactly. I remember the 6 Delta part, but I don't remember what is it that 7 they put that label on. 8 Q. Is Dr. Seligman still living? 9 A. To the best of my knowledge, but he's in 10 pretty sad shape. 11 Q. Is he? 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. Where does he reside? 14 A. I don't know. He's in Virginia somewhere 15 there. 16 Q. Leo Meyer is deceased, correct? 17 A. Yes. Yes, Leo is deceased. 18 Q. How about Walt Gannon, is he still alive? 19 A. Walt, I don't know if he's still alive, but I 20 knew -- but he has left Philip Morris many, many 21 years ago. And he lived in Richmond. 22 Q. Under Leo Meyer's directorship of new 23 products, you were listed, obviously, as an 24 associate principal which you mentioned at the 25 beginning of your deposition? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 99 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And there were other members of your group 3 Howard Spielberg and Warren Chaflin -- or 4 Claflin -- 5 A. Claflin. 6 Q. -- who were also associate principals? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did they work with you in any respect on the 9 ignition propensity issues? 10 A. No. 11 Q. What was Robert -- is it Ikeda? 12 A. Ikeda. 13 Q. What was his responsibility while you were 14 working in this group? 15 A. He was the principal scientist. Basically the 16 distinction sort of -- the lines of demarcation 17 were not very sharp. I mean, he was just a part of 18 the group, and each one did, you know, different 19 kinds of work similar to me -- I mean, not 20 similar. I mean, on the same level as I did, but 21 different kinds of projects. 22 Q. You were the only one of the four individuals 23 within that circle there from Spielberg to Ikeda 24 that worked on ignition propensity issues, to your 25 knowledge? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 100 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Then below your group was -- and this is where 3 I'm having a little bit of misunderstanding, 4 perhaps, is Frank Daylor who I thought perhaps was 5 a manager? 6 A. Manager, yes. 7 Q. Was he your supervisor? It appears from the 8 chart on Bates No. 8720 that Daylor was below you, 9 when I understood you to say earlier that he was 10 ahead of you in the hierarchy? 11 A. Yeah. This is a bit confusing. Basically 12 what happens is we had a lot of bosses. Just 13 kidding here. But administratively, I reported to 14 Leo Meyer; functionally, I reported to Frank 15 Daylor. 16 MR. CRAMPTON: Could I just point 17 something out? There's a discrepancy between the 18 big chart and Exhibit 2 here on page 8720. Where 19 page 8720 shows these three people, Daylor, Gauvin 20 and Wickham to be directly under Meyer, yours shows 21 them directly under Spielberg -- or indirectly 22 under Meyer, under Spielberg. And there's just a 23 mistake the way the lines are drawn there. 24 THE WITNESS: Yeah, this line. This 25 should have went all the way down here. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 101 1 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) So Daylor, Wickham and 2 Gauvin also reported to Meyer? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. But they were not -- but Daylor was also your 5 -- the person you reported to? 6 A. Yes. He was a manager of the flavor 7 development. 8 Q. If you were to want to correct that Exhibit 1 9 to make the line appropriate, where would you 10 connect those three individuals? Feel free to draw 11 on it however you want to. 12 A. Okay. Just draw this line coming down here 13 and -- 14 Q. There you go. 15 A. -- bring it like that. 16 Q. Very good, thank you. To your knowledge, was 17 the -- were ignition propensity issues studied at 18 any of the other levels denoted in my chart, other 19 than under Leo Meyer's directorship? 20 A. Not to my knowledge. 21 Q. Did Henry Merritt, to your knowledge, have any 22 input on ignition propensity issues? And I notice 23 he's within the process development group. 24 A. Well, he's in process development in this 25 chart, but I think this may be just a little later MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 102 1 than -- he was -- he preceded me in this kinds of 2 studies. He was doing this kind of work or some 3 portion of it before I got there or before I got 4 involved, I'm sorry. 5 Q. So he could have perhaps been in new products 6 or the company may have been arranged in a 7 different fashion? 8 A. That's about right, yes. It could be either 9 one or the other. 10 Q. Now that we've gone through a number of the 11 names and positions of individuals represented by 12 this chart and Exhibit No. 2 to some degree, can 13 you give me an idea of about what year or years 14 this chart represents the hierarchy of Philip 15 Morris? 16 A. Are you talking about this part here, or all 17 of it? 18 Q. However you can best tell me. 19 A. Well, I can't. I mean, the problem is it's a 20 large organization. And I came there, and my 21 interest was more to focus on my research rather 22 than who is in charge and where. And, you know, 23 most of the names I recognize, but can I swear what 24 he was doing at that time, I don't know. 25 Q. Looking at Exhibit No. 2, Bates No. 8718, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 103 1 which is the top of the chart, can you give me an 2 idea of about when that relationship would have 3 existed within the company? 4 A. I really could not, don't know. I mean, these 5 are titles that I -- I just knew they were all up 6 there, but that's all I know. 7 Q. Under the directorship of Leo Meyer where 8 you're subsumed or were subsumed in the hierarchy, 9 about what time period would that collection of 10 individuals have been within the arrangements? 11 A. As you list them there -- 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. -- they would have been about 1980 or 14 thereabouts. 15 Q. Do you recall what job Thomas Osdene primarily 16 performed back during the early '80s? 17 A. Tom was not, you know, in our building in our 18 -- in the research department. He was in a 19 separate building, and I had very casual -- I mean, 20 I saw him but -- 21 Q. You really don't know what he did in terms of 22 research or product development or study? 23 A. No, I don't know what he did. 24 Q. And you don't know of any involvement he had 25 in ignition propensity studies? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 104 1 A. So far as I know, during the time I was doing 2 the work, none. But I don't know about -- 3 Q. Later on? 4 A. -- before or later or whatever. 5 MR. GRISHAM: Mark this as Exhibit 3, 6 please. 7 (Kallianos Exhibit No. 3 was 8 marked for identification.) 9 (Discussion off the record.) 10 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Dr. Kallianos, Exhibit 3 11 appears to contain two pages of a report authored 12 by you and a handwritten note that, I think, is 13 initialed by you, correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And the report begins with Bates No. 0906 and 16 progresses to 0907, correct? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Was this particular report, in fact, one 19 authored by you on or about June 4th, 1981, in your 20 capacity as an associate principal at Philip Morris 21 U.S.A.? 22 A. Yeah. The -- this is my signature. I cannot 23 verify the date as being exact, but I would think 24 that it's probably an exact document. 25 Q. Okay. And you directed it to Dr. Seligman who MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 105 1 was the vice-president of research and development, 2 correct? 3 A. Yes, yes. 4 Q. And you copied your direct supervisors, 5 Mr. Leo Meyer and Mr. Frank Daylor? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. And the subject of the report was the smolder 8 rate of cigarettes on the furniture mock-up. So by 9 this time, you were already involved in testing 10 cigarette prototypes on a furniture mock-up like 11 the National Bureau of Standards was using also? 12 A. Yes, under our conditions. 13 Q. Yes, under the conditions there at the Philip 14 Morris laboratories. 15 A. Operable, yes. 16 Q. And in the memo that you wrote, you report of 17 testing a full-flavor, 84-millimeter cigarette 18 manufactured from a commercial blend of cased and 19 cut tobaccos, correct? 20 A. I'm trying to -- 21 Q. I'm on the first line there. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You noticed -- noted that it would smolder or 24 free burn for about 15 minutes when it was 25 suspended in air under low draft conditions, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 106 1 correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you remember which particular prototype 4 this was, what designation it was? 5 A. No, I would not know. 6 Q. But it was, as we know, because you wrote it, 7 made from a commercial blend; in other words, a 8 controlled -- 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. -- blend of what was commercially 11 manufactured? 12 A. Controlled to the extent that it was well 13 blended and you know this kind of an extent. 14 Q. So whatever cigarette it was, you replicated 15 an off-the-shelf cigarette but made sure the blend 16 was precise? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You noted that the cigarette would smolder for 19 longer periods of time than 15 minutes when placed 20 on the furniture mock-up -- 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. -- correct? And that it was about 18 minutes 23 resting on a flat surface; and when it was placed 24 at a right angle corner of the furniture mock-up 25 contacting two surfaces, the smolder time increased MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 107 1 to 28 minutes? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And that it was even extended further when 4 placed in the crevice formed by the fabric over the 5 polyurethane foam? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And so apparently this was one of the crevice 8 tests that you've described earlier? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. You noted that as the crevice size became more 11 confining, the smoldering time increased? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And under crevice-size conditions, the 14 smoldering time was about 60 minutes, if the 15 cigarette didn't self-extinguish? 16 A. Yes. But I also note that high percentage of 17 the cigarettes would just starve for oxygen, 18 self-extinguish. 19 Q. Okay. Do you recall what percentage that was? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did this full flavor 84 millimeter filter 22 cigarette replicate what was commercially being 23 manufactured as the Marlboro? 24 A. It could be. 25 Q. Now, you go on to state that the data was MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 108 1 obtained in response to a request from Dr. Seligman 2 prompted by a report in the Washington Star on 3 April 4th, 1981, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you remember what that report was? 6 A. No. I mean, it just says -- it just says here 7 that in the course -- in response -- regarding a 8 fire that took place at Caesar's Palace Hotel in 9 Las Vegas. 10 This is as briefly as I -- but how long the 11 article was or what it said, I don't know. 12 Q. Certainly. You go on to note then in the next 13 paragraph that your opinion and others in your 14 company that cigarette -- a cigarette smoldering 15 for several hours probably was not the manner in 16 which the fire referenced in the Washington Star 17 actually occurred, correct? 18 A. Yeah. What I'm saying, it's a gross 19 exaggeration that it smoldered for several hours. 20 Q. Yes. It may have been a smoldering cigarette, 21 but it probably didn't smolder for several hours? 22 A. That exactly right. 23 Q. Okay. And you went on to comment by saying 24 that your test -- or "you" being Philip Morris, the 25 tests at Philip Morris showed that once ignition of MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 109 1 the furniture mock-up had occurred, the cigarette, 2 of course, was not important to the outcome of the 3 fire -- 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. -- once ignition had occurred? 6 A. Once you light the fuse, then the match is 7 inconsequential, you know, kind of a thing. 8 Q. And when self-extinguishment didn't occur in 9 the first two to five minutes, the system proceeded 10 to total conflagration uninterruptedly, which is 11 the same way of saying that once the fuse is lit, 12 the match is no longer of consequence in the fire, 13 correct? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. And so based upon this information, if one 16 were wanting to design a cigarette that would be 17 more or less prone to ignition, one would want to 18 try to get it to self-extinguish in two to five 19 minutes or before five minutes certainly? 20 A. Now, remember now that this was obtained with 21 specific fabric, specific this, specific 22 conditions. And in the realm of the open world, it 23 may be just representative of, I don't know, many, 24 many school of the environment. 25 Q. Sure. Well, for instance -- MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 110 1 A. The other 99.9 percent it could explode for -- 2 you know, I mean, there are situations where, yeah, 3 it wouldn't take a second to -- 4 Q. Like if gasoline fumes were involved? 5 A. A second would be too long, yeah. 6 Q. Yeah. A second's too long if gasoline fumes 7 are involved. 8 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection. 9 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) And, likewise, if it were 10 thrown into water, it probably wouldn't matter. 11 It's going to go out, right? 12 A. That's right. 13 Q. But what you were talking about in your memo 14 of June 4th, 1981, was under your laboratory 15 conditions--the controlled conditions with a 16 controlled blend--from that information, one could 17 reasonably propose to try to develop a cigarette 18 that would self-extinguish somewhere under two to 19 five minutes? 20 A. It was a personal opinion, you know, not 21 necessarily based on any extensive experimentation. 22 Q. Just what you had been doing in the 23 laboratory? 24 A. Yeah, just... 25 Q. Then in the next paragraph of your report you MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 111 1 wrote "to our amazement" -- and I'm quoting this, 2 "when the cigarette was placed into a crevice, 3 there was little evidence that ignition of the 4 mock-up had taken place for the first 15 to 20 5 minutes," correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you actually remember that test? 8 A. I remember it, yes. I mean, not this specific 9 case necessarily, but I -- 10 Q. But the concept? 11 A. -- remember the concept, yes. 12 Q. Yeah. So what you were finding in your 13 crevice testing, then, was that cigarettes could 14 smolder for a much longer period of time before a 15 fire was noticed in a crevice? 16 A. That's right. Before even a clue was given 17 that there was a smoldering taking place. 18 Q. It was only after 20 minutes in this 19 particular test that the presence of a smoldering 20 fire was apparent, correct? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. Which was much longer than the periods of time 23 that you had been seeing in your research on 24 ignition propensity on flat surfaces of the 25 mock-up? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 112 1 A. Well, it was longer, but the thing is -- yes, 2 they were longer. I don't know -- I mean, I become 3 verbose after that. 4 Q. Was it, in your opinion, the control of oxygen 5 or the diminishment of oxygen to the cigarette that 6 created the circumstance whereby it could smolder 7 longer before ignition? 8 A. Yeah. If one were to make a hypothesis, this 9 would be the number one thing that you would want 10 to test--amount of oxygen. 11 Q. You go on to state that the direction of burn 12 in the mock-up tended to be predominately along the 13 cigarette axis and away from the coal and 14 cigarette? 15 A. That's right. 16 Q. Was that a phenomenon that was different than 17 what you had seen from the flat surface mock-up 18 testing? 19 A. Well, this had progressed a lot further than 20 the mock-up test, you know. This had progressed a 21 lot further. 22 The mock-up test had more -- this had more 23 unidirectional kind of a thing, whereas the other 24 would be more multidirectional type of a thing. 25 Q. So the crevice created a more unidirectional MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 113 1 burn pattern? 2 A. Yeah, that's right. That's because you had 3 this excess of oxygen in this particular kind of an 4 angle kind of a thing. I don't know, maybe -- I 5 don't know how they achieve the effect or the 6 dynamics of the situation might prevail. 7 Q. And in the -- when the cigarette was tested 8 under laboratory conditions on a flat surface, 9 there was a more diffuse pattern to the burn? 10 A. Well, what it -- yes, yes. I mean, if you 11 would look, that's what you would see, a more 12 diffused -- yeah, multidirectional, yes. 13 Q. Was the unidirectional force of the heat and 14 smolder something that, in your mind, may have 15 contributed to the longer smolder time? 16 A. I'll have to reflect upon that. I can't -- I 17 can't answer that. 18 Q. That's fair enough. You noted that on some 19 occasions the ignition front propagated in the 20 direction of the cigarette burn and the smoldering 21 time of the cigarette was estimated by 22 extrapolation from the amount of cigarette 23 remaining after a certain time interval on test. 24 What did you mean by that--those two sentences, 25 that phrase? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 114 1 A. Okay. Now I'm trying to understand what I 2 meant. Okay? 3 Q. I understand. 4 A. And what I think I'm saying is that most of 5 the time it went away from the cigarette in that 6 direction. They would -- once in a while there 7 would be a situation where it would go in the 8 direction of the cigarette. 9 When it went in that direction, we could 10 estimate how much of the cigarette was left. When 11 it would go in this direction, then that would 12 contribute to the burning of the cigarette. So the 13 estimate then became a little more continuous. 14 Q. Yes. It was -- you were less capable of 15 specifically estimating the time to ignition 16 because it was consuming the cigarette also? 17 A. That's right, that's right. 18 Q. On the next page of your memo, you talk about 19 measurements taken from tests terminated at 2230 20 and 42 minutes; and the average time of smoldering 21 in your crevice testing of this vintage, so to 22 speak, was about 50 to 60 minutes. Do you recall 23 that being the case? 24 A. Let me see here. Yeah. 25 Q. Do you remember how many cigarettes were MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 115 1 tested to arrive at this 50- to 60-minute average 2 before ignition in the crevice? 3 A. They were -- they were always mindful, but I 4 can't -- I can't -- it was more than one or two, 5 but I can't tell you that it was 20 or 30. 6 Q. So is it fair for me to conclude that then by 7 June of 1981, researchers at Philip Morris were 8 aware that in a crevice situation, as created in 9 the laboratory with controlled bends and control 10 environmental factors, tested cigarettes could 11 smolder for 50 to 60 minutes before ignition? 12 A. I think this ignition business now is -- let's 13 see, we're talking here that the smoldering front 14 moved in the opposite direction; in other words, 15 the fabric would smolder and go in that direction. 16 We used only those to estimate and -- yes. 17 Q. And these tests were conducted, using the same 18 foam and fabric that you had used in the ignition 19 propensity work for the flat surface? 20 A. Exactly. 21 Q. Medium-density foam, medium-weight cotton 22 upholstered fabric, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you hypothesized at that time that if 25 heavier fabrics were used, that might change the MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 116 1 time of ignition by a few minutes, but wouldn't 2 necessarily influence the smolder rate of the 3 cigarette, correct? 4 A. It was -- it was a personal opinion, yeah. 5 Q. And you noted once again before you concluded 6 that once the fire ignition has occurred, the 7 self-propagating nature of the fire becomes 8 independent of the cigarette; the cigarette becomes 9 consumed, as well as the other materials being 10 burned, correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Attached to this report is also a handwritten 13 page made a part of Exhibit 3, Bates No. 0905. 14 There appears to be initialed by you -- or actually 15 your first name is signed to it and your last 16 initial. Is that, in fact, your initial? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And is that your handwritten note? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Is it addressed to Barbro Goodman? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you state there "please excuse the 23 oversight"? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did you forget to copy her on this memo? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 117 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And when you noticed your oversight, you sent 3 her a copy with this note? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. GRISHAM: Is this a good place to 6 break for lunch? 7 MR. CRAMPTON: Sure. 8 (Lunch recess.) 9 (Kallianos Exhibit No. 4 was 10 marked for identification.) 11 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Dr. Kallianos, I want to 12 hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 4. 13 MR. GRISHAM: I'm sorry. 14 MR. CRAMPTON: That's okay. 15 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Take a few minutes to review 16 that, if you would. 17 (Kallianos Exhibit Nos. 5 - 7 18 were marked for identification.) 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Have you ever seen the memo 21 or interoffice correspondence designated and marked 22 as Exhibit 4 herein? 23 A. I don't remember specifically. 24 Q. I know the date that it purports or bears 25 precedes your -- MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 118 1 A. -- employment. 2 Q. -- work with the company and employment 3 there. I just was not sure if you had seen it or 4 not? 5 A. It's possible, but I don't remember it. 6 Q. The subject of the memo from Mr. Osmalov is a 7 visit with Sam and Charles Cohn regarding their 8 fireproof sodium silicate treatment. Did you ever 9 have any discussion with Dr. Seligman or 10 Mr. Claflin or any of the individuals noted on this 11 memo about that meeting or the concept of 12 fireproofing using collite? 13 A. Well, Warren Claflin, he and I were good 14 friends and so I don't know whether we discussed 15 this, but, you know, we had lots of conversations. 16 Dr. Seligman, I don't remember him having 17 mentioned specifically; but I am aware of what 18 Mr. Cohn or whoever, Charles or Sam--I don't know 19 which one--of some of these aspects, but not 20 specifically this kind of application as they 21 describe here. 22 Q. Okay. That's what I was going to ask because 23 I know that later in your tenure at Philip Morris 24 you worked on the SOL-GEL project. Was it a part 25 of the SOL-GEL project that you did some work with MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 119 1 sodium silicate? 2 A. No. Sodium silicate work was done at the time 3 that there was publicity. 4 Q. I see. So you didn't actually do that 5 research, someone else did? 6 A. Which? 7 Q. At Philip Morris, the sodium silicate 8 research? 9 A. This part here? I don't know what was done 10 here. I mean, all I know is because of the fanfare 11 that he created, we applied sodium silicate -- I 12 applied sodium silicate to cigarettes. 13 Q. Did you do it in an overall application or -- 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. -- with bands? 16 A. Overall application and with bands, but 17 overall application. 18 Q. Did you make the application yourself, or did 19 you order papers treated with sodium silicate from 20 the manufacturer? 21 A. No. I made the application myself. 22 Q. And that's the tests that you alluded to 23 earlier whereby it made an ugly mess smoking the 24 cigarette you mentioned? 25 A. I mean, it was -- I didn't -- MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 120 1 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection; he didn't say 2 ugly mess. But go ahead if you can describe it for 3 him. 4 A. It was -- I did not smoke it physically. I 5 mean, just machine smoked, the cigarette was 6 machine smoked. And I observed, you know, what was 7 happening. 8 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) And it was aesthetically 9 displeasing? 10 A. Very. 11 Q. Okay. And it sloughed off? 12 A. Yes, there was a little sparking. 13 Q. A sparking which could cause ignition of 14 clothing? 15 A. Oh, I don't know -- yeah, cause little burns 16 to the clothing. 17 Q. Well, what else was -- you mentioned something 18 else, flavor, that was not good with the treatment? 19 A. I never -- we never -- I don't -- I never 20 evaluated this flavor in any manner whatsoever. 21 Q. In making the application for the 22 testing--making the application of the sodium 23 silicate--did you follow the procedures for 24 application of the substance patented by Dr. Cohn? 25 A. I did not follow this procedure. I followed MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 121 1 the latest application that he had, whatever that 2 was. 3 Q. You say the latest that he had -- 4 A. Whatever -- whatever was disclosed, but not 5 this. I don't remember this. 6 Q. You don't remember the procedure in Exhibit 4? 7 A. I don't remember the procedure in this Exhibit 8 No. 4. 9 Q. Have you had any discussion with either the 10 Cohns or their company, Colonial Alloys Company, 11 about the collite treatment? 12 A. No. 13 Q. The second thing that you thought was a 14 negative factor about the sodium silicate or 15 collite treatment was the flavor, right? You 16 mentioned two things that you thought -- 17 A. No. I said that silicates in cigarette would 18 probably be a no-no. 19 Q. Okay, I see. There was some concern on your 20 behalf about toxicity? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You don't know whether or not the issue of 23 toxicity with sodium silicate has been addressed or 24 tested, do you? 25 A. Well, the cigarette just had no merit to MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 122 1 really -- had no merit in order to justify any kind 2 of this kind of a -- 3 Q. Are you aware of any testing that the Cohn 4 family did, or their company, on the cigarettes 5 coated with sodium silicate? 6 MR. CRAMPTON: Are you talking toxicity 7 testing or other testing? 8 MR. GRISHAM: Any kind of testing. 9 A. No. 10 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Doctor, let me hand you 11 what's been marked as Exhibit No. -- it should be 5. 12 (Discussion off the record.) 13 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Let me hand you Exhibit 14 No. 5, and ask you if you've -- 15 A. -- you've seen this, right? 16 Q. -- seen that? 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. Dr. Kallianos, do you recognize the document 19 marked as Exhibit 6 -- no, excuse me, 5? 20 A. I don't remember it specifically, but I 21 remember us having gone through a list of testing 22 variables one in turn. 23 Q. Does purport to be a memo from Randall Greene 24 to you and Barbro Goodman concerning the ignition 25 propensity studies? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 123 1 A. It does. It does, yes. 2 Q. And from your recollection of that time 3 period, do you remember Randy Greene reporting to 4 you -- 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. -- progress on a certain number of fronts 7 dealing with ignition propensity? 8 A. Yes. 9 MR. CRAMPTON: Object to the form, 10 "fronts." 11 MR. GRISHAM: Okay, fair enough. 12 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Of the nine different areas 13 that I count here, nine headings, the last one 14 dealt with a pattern wrapper St. Pastou's; is that 15 correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What was that? 18 A. I can remember. It was a pattern where there 19 was some things -- some cross-link or some coating, 20 crisscrossing patterns. 21 Q. And this particular pattern -- 22 A. Pardon me, I think it was maybe a waffle 23 pattern. 24 Q. And this particular paper that Mr. Greene was 25 referring to in the memo to you back in 1981 had MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 124 1 silicate as a part of that pattern, correct? 2 A. That's what it says here, yes. 3 Q. And apparently Schweitzer had brought some 4 samples of the paper? 5 A. That's what it says. 6 Q. And Schweitzer at that time was a big producer 7 of cigarette paper? 8 A. I don't know how big, but it was a producer of 9 cigarette paper. 10 Q. And Philip Morris used Schweitzer wrappers on 11 some of its commercial cigarettes, didn't it? 12 A. I can't verify that. But to the best of my 13 knowledge, I would think so; but I don't know. 14 Q. And Mr. Greene reported to you back, according 15 to this memo, in October of 1981 that preliminary 16 results from tests of cigarettes wrapped with that 17 St. Pastou pattern showed the wrapper to have 18 excellent ignition propensity. Do you recall that? 19 A. No. But, I mean, I... 20 Q. It goes on to state that testing had stopped 21 on the model to permit analytical investigations. 22 Do you remember if they were, in fact, conducted? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Do you know if any other work was undertaken 25 on this St. Pastou pattern wrapper with the MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 125 1 silicate impregnation or coating? 2 A. No. It just notes here that Schweitzer 3 indicated that production of additional samples 4 would be difficult, very difficult. 5 Q. Let me hand you Exhibit 6 and have you review 6 that. I don't have a lot of questions about that. 7 I was going to ask you to look at it more in terms 8 of identification. 9 Before you spend a lot of time reading it, 10 Doctor, what I believe, it appears to bear the seal 11 of the Colonial Alloy Company and it purports to be 12 a history of fire resistant cigarettes. My 13 suspicion is this is something that was created, 14 perhaps, by the Cohn brothers and submitted with 15 some proposal, but it doesn't bear a date and I -- 16 what I was -- what I need to ask you is this: Do 17 you recognize it -- 18 A. No. 19 Q. -- in any fashion? 20 A. No, I don't recognize it. 21 Q. Okay. That's all I need to know about that. 22 Now let me hand you Exhibit No. 7, and ask you to 23 please review that document. 24 MR. CRAMPTON: Is this one to be used 25 substantively? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 126 1 MR. GRISHAM: Maybe not. Let him look 2 at it, and let me ask him if he's seen it. 3 MR. CRAMPTON: If you could, Doctor, 4 just take a quick review on that to see if you can 5 familiarize yourself with whether you've seen it or 6 not. And then, depending on what questions he 7 asks, we may ask you to look at it in more detail. 8 A. Can you clue me as to where he says what he 9 did? 10 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Hang on just a second. It's 11 really just sort of a description of a proposed 12 product. 13 A. I don't see anything that says specifically 14 anything of -- 15 Q. No, I -- 16 MR. CRAMPTON: There isn't a question 17 pending right now. Why don't you go ahead and ask 18 whatever it is you want to ask, and we'll see 19 whether he needs to review it. 20 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) The primary question is: Do 21 you recall having seen this document before? 22 A. No. 23 Q. There's a seal on page 1, Bates No. 0043, 24 received April 24th, 1984, with a name under it as 25 part of the stamp. Do you recognize that? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 127 1 A. Mine is not very well reproduced. 2 Q. Right here. 3 A. Yeah. But, I mean, I can't read the name. 4 Q. Fair enough. That's what I was going to ask 5 you. Do you remember doing any research or hearing 6 of any research from -- concerning a product from 7 the Safer Cigarette Research Company, or is that 8 something that's just alien to your recollection? 9 A. I don't -- I don't remember. I don't remember 10 a Safer Cigarette Company. 11 Q. Okay. And in the course of your work on 12 sidestream smoke, do you recall receiving any 13 information from any external company named a Safe 14 Cigarette Company or Colonial Alloys Company? 15 A. No. 16 (Kallianos Exhibit No. 8 was 17 marked for identification.) 18 MR. GRISHAM: I'll hand you Exhibit 8 19 and let you look at that. 20 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) But while Mr. Crampton's 21 reviewing it, can I ask you a question right quick? 22 A. Sure. 23 Q. Earlier today, in your deposition, we talked 24 about your meeting with Mr. Krasny and then you 25 returning back to your employer at Philip Morris MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 128 1 and reporting to Mr. Leo Meyer about that visit? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And I think you told me that your report 4 probably followed within a couple of months, 5 perhaps, of your visit? 6 A. I don't remember saying that. 7 Q. Do you recall how soon following your visit to 8 Krasny? 9 A. No. I mean, it depends on what I had to do. 10 I mean, if I did -- if I had to do something 11 urgent, I defer it. If I didn't, I would probably 12 do it reasonably quickly. 13 Q. I want you to look, if you would, at Exhibit 8 14 for a moment, without necessarily reading the whole 15 content, and see if you can recall Exhibit 8 as 16 being the memorandum that you authored in reporting 17 to Mr. Leo Meyer on May 20th, 1981, about your 18 visit to the National Bureau of Standards? 19 A. Without reading it? 20 Q. Yeah. 21 A. It bears my signature, and it states that I 22 reported to Leo Meyer. And it's a visit that he 23 and I took together to the National Bureau of 24 Standards. 25 Q. And apparently you also copied Dr. Seligman MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 129 1 and your superior, at least in hierarchy, 2 Mr. Daylor? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, at the bottom of page 1791, it's noted to 5 be confidential? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did you decide to denote this particular 8 correspondence as confidential, or was there some 9 protocol by which you were directed to note this as 10 confidential? 11 A. Usually projects that have product 12 development, you know, content or background, 13 things like that, were -- contained some level of 14 confidentiality. 15 Q. So it would have been your decision to mark it 16 confidential probably? 17 A. Probably. 18 Q. Then underneath confidential, you mention no 19 central file, no day file. Does that mean this 20 memo did not go to the central file or to the day 21 filing system? 22 A. That's what it would mean, yes. 23 Q. What was the purpose of not sending it to 24 either of those files? 25 A. It would violate the confidentiality because MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 130 1 central files were open to whoever wanted to go in 2 there and take a look. 3 Q. So what file would this have been stored in? 4 A. This would have been in Mr. Meyer's file, 5 Dr. Seligman's, Mr. Daylor's, and I guess I would 6 have -- I mean, and I would keep a copy. 7 Q. What is the day file, by the way? 8 A. I don't know. I really don't know. I know 9 what central file is, of course. You know, I 10 visited there and, you know, would request 11 documents from it. But day file, I haven't the 12 slightest idea what it was. 13 Q. I don't mean me to sound flippant or trite at 14 all, but how would you know to put no day file on 15 there if didn't know -- 16 A. This was the convention. This was the -- this 17 was pretty much confidential, no central file, no 18 day. 19 Q. So you were able to look back at other 20 documents that were deemed confidential, and you 21 knew to put this designation of no central file or 22 no day file to keep it confidential? 23 A. Yes. I was a senior member of the research 24 department, and I did have access to confidential 25 -- some, some, confidential information. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 131 1 Q. And that's how you knew to put this 2 designation of no central file, no day file to keep 3 it confidential? 4 A. Yes. 5 (Kallianos Exhibit No. 9 was 6 marked for identification.) 7 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Take a look at Exhibit 9, if 8 you would, and see if you can identify that. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 9 as being a 1981 era 11 memorandum that you were copied on by Mr. Randy 12 Greene that was intended -- or actually was 13 directed to Barbro Goodman? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Would this be a memo that you would have kept 16 in your files while you were at Philip Morris? 17 A. I would think so. 18 Q. And it generally deals with configurations of 19 double-wrapped cigarettes that were being tested 20 for sidestream smoke issues and mainstream delivery 21 issues, correct? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. Do you remember that particular research going 24 on? 25 A. Yes, I remember that. I remember us using MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 132 1 double-wrapped cigarettes. 2 Q. Did the double-wrap research reflect any 3 changes in ignition propensity, to your 4 recollection? 5 A. I cannot remember. We mentioned here how it 6 -- self-extinguishing features and things like 7 that, not being able to maintain static burn; but I 8 don't remember. 9 Q. Do you recall whether or not Philip Morris 10 marketed any commercial brands with double 11 wrappers? 12 A. No, I don't recall. 13 Q. Do you know whether or not any cigarette that 14 is commercially produced in the marketplace has 15 used double wrappers? 16 A. I'm not aware of any. 17 MR. GRISHAM: I believe this is No. 10. 18 (Kallianos Exhibit No. 10 was 19 marked for identification.) 20 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Dr. Kallianos, Exhibit 10 21 purports to be a quarterly status report authored 22 by you, but it bears no signature. Do you recall 23 that report? 24 A. I recall something like it. 25 Q. Do you recall there was a signed original, or MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 133 1 sometimes do these things go out without the 2 signature? 3 A. No. I mean, I've been known to just read and 4 say it's good, yeah. 5 MR. CRAMPTON: I'm sorry, you were 6 known to? 7 THE WITNESS: Read, you know, and say, 8 okay, this was satisfied, you know, good. 9 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) And not necessarily sign it, 10 just distribute it? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. Okay. But you do recall this work product on 13 Exhibit 10 as being yours? 14 A. It bears my -- what do you call it? 15 MR. CRAMPTON: Style? 16 A. Style, yeah. 17 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) And so on January 1st, 1982, 18 you were still apparently involved in the ignition 19 propensity studies, correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you issued a quarterly status report, and 22 it doesn't say necessarily who it was to. Who 23 would this have been issued to? 24 A. This probably and maybe this is -- well, this 25 was directed to probably Leo Meyer or Frank Daylor MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 134 1 or something. But it probably was part of a packet 2 of these kinds of things here. 3 Q. And the objectives listed were, number one, to 4 develop a methodology for assessing ignition 5 propensity of cigarettes; and number two, to 6 develop the technology to produce a cigarette with 7 decreased propensity to ignite upholstered 8 furniture, correct? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Was that basically the Hamlet objectives? 11 A. Could have been. 12 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection -- or actually 13 just one comment. This appears to be the ignition 14 propensity study as distinct -- whatever 15 distinction there is between that and Hamlet. This 16 is the I.P. study at the time. 17 MR. GRISHAM: Got you, yeah. 18 A. I don't know what Hamlet -- I mean, I can't 19 remember specifically what Hamlet is but... 20 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) You do recall these two 21 objectives as being the objectives of the ignition 22 propensity studies you were involved in? 23 A. Yeah. The first one certainly. The second 24 one is sort of an optimistic, you know, kind of an 25 ambition goal. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 135 1 Q. And by the 1st day of January 1982, you were 2 able to report three accomplishments; one of which 3 was that the machine made cigarettes with double 4 wrappers were not found to offer an advantage in 5 ignition propensity reduction, correct? 6 A. That's what it says, yes. I don't remember 7 that specifically, but... 8 Q. Number two, that hand sheets with titanium 9 oxide additives were made in-house and by 10 Schweitzer and ran successfully on the makers? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And the result is cigarettes possessed 13 decreased ignition propensity; do you recall that? 14 A. I remember having tested titanium oxide. I 15 remember having a problem with sealing the seams. 16 I don't remember how we overcame that, but we 17 apparently succeeded in making the cigarettes. 18 Q. Do you know why or whether or not any further 19 work was done with titanium oxide as an additive 20 for reduction in ignition propensity? 21 A. No. I don't know why it was not. 22 Q. Do you remember if it had any drawbacks? 23 A. No. I mean, just the titanium, titanium 24 oxide, titanium. I mean, in my mind, here would 25 raise a flag. You are introducing now something MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 136 1 that's not been customarily used paper. 2 Q. Of course, you tested it on cigarettes, 3 correct? 4 A. Yes. Yeah, but... 5 Q. Finished? 6 A. You test even anything to gain information, to 7 see, you know, what kind of leads, whatever 8 directions. 9 Q. And the status on January 1st, 1982, was that 10 ignition propensity testing of competitive brands 11 continued. And a finding was made that commercial 12 cigarettes made solely from Bright tobacco showed 13 lower ignition propensity than blended cigarettes? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did that hypothesis remain true throughout 16 your research, to the best of your recollection? 17 A. I don't know how extensively we tested that, 18 but that appears to be a reasonable kind of a 19 thing. We did, I think -- even when we did the 20 tobacco modifying different kinds of tobaccos. And 21 I think we did find that Bright tobacco did have 22 slightly lower ignition propensity in that index, 23 the way we were measuring here. 24 Q. And on the timetable listed at the bottom of 25 this report, number one, you propose to continue MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 137 1 the testing of the competitive brands? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. By the way, do you know of any Philip Morris 4 competitors that were testing Philip Morris brands 5 for ignition propensity? 6 A. I don't know what anybody else was doing at 7 all. 8 Q. And number two, you planned to develop a 9 mathematical model to correlate ignition propensity 10 with other variables? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. Was that ever done? 13 A. It's too many variables. I'm sure we must 14 have made -- we must have made an attempt there. 15 But you just run so many multiple regressions that 16 -- we still didn't have the computer, I think, at 17 that time and mathematical -- I mean, statistical 18 models in the computer to really be able to handle 19 the multivaried analysis that you would handle 20 today. 21 Q. So at that time, really, you didn't have the 22 hardware tools or the software tools to develop 23 such a model? 24 A. No. We could, but it was a complicated kind 25 of a thing. I don't know how successful we were. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 138 1 Q. You were actually gone from this part of the 2 study before any such of a mathematical model was 3 complete? 4 A. As best as I can remember. 5 Q. You planned to explore titanium oxide and 6 various levels of calcium carbonate -- 7 A. And wrappers. 8 Q. And as you said here, do you recall that 9 testing or exploration continuing? 10 A. I remember -- certainly remember the calcium 11 carbonate, different levels of calcium carbonate. 12 Yes, I remember that distinctly. 13 Q. And number four, you planned to optimize 14 properties of prototypes by modifications to the 15 blend. Do you recall that? 16 A. I don't remember, but it would be a reasonable 17 kind of a thing to state. 18 Q. In other words, you were going to tweak the 19 blends a little -- 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- bit to see what effect you could get? 22 A. Yes, yes. 23 Q. And number six, you planned to compare 24 alternate methodologies for testing ignition 25 propensity? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 139 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you know if any alternate methodologies 3 were ever created? 4 A. I don't remember. Was that about the time 5 when Krasny may have come up with his -- if he did, 6 that was an alternate thing, and I said I want to 7 compare that and see how does it relate with what 8 we've got. 9 Q. Do you know what the concept of reversals are 10 in scientific research? 11 A. Reversals? 12 Q. Or specifically in ignition propensity study 13 of cigarettes? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Number seven, the plans were to test ignition 16 propensity of models developed for other programs. 17 Do you know what was meant by that, what other 18 programs were being discussed? 19 A. Well, there's a product development effort 20 going on continuously. And if any of them 21 incorporated the different blend composition that 22 might have included a higher percentage of Oriental 23 -- I mean, of Bright tobaccos, if any of them used 24 their wrapper, maybe with, I don't know, different 25 kind of an additive, that kind of thing, we would MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 140 1 -- and with anything that would give us a clue, 2 any indication that it might have some potential, 3 we would test it. 4 (Kallianos Exhibit No. 11 was 5 marked for identification.) 6 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) While Mr. Crampton's looking 7 at that, let me ask you another question or two. 8 With respect to the titanium oxide as a 9 method to control ignition propensity, did you 10 suggest that further research be done into that 11 type of cigarette treatment? 12 A. I can't remember. I may very well have. I 13 can't remember, though. 14 Q. Titanium oxide, is that a complex compound? 15 A. No. It's a paint pigment. 16 Q. And it's mass-produced in large quantities, 17 correct? 18 A. Your white paints are mostly titanium oxide. 19 Q. Take a look at Exhibit 11, if you would, 20 please. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 11 as being a Philip 23 Morris Incorporated interoffice correspondence that 24 you authored? 25 A. Yes. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 141 1 Q. We've been talking throughout the deposition, 2 too, about Philip Morris U.S.A. Do you understand 3 Philip Morris U.S.A. to be one in the same as 4 Philip Morris Incorporated? 5 A. No. Philip Morris U.S.A. is a division of 6 Philip Morris -- to one of the companies of Philip 7 Morris Incorporated. 8 Q. Okay. Do you recall authoring Exhibit 11 on 9 July 23rd, 1981, the date that it bears? 10 A. I presume the day is correct but... 11 Q. And you were apparently making a status report 12 to Leo Meyer on the self-extinguishing cigarette -- 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. -- or ignition propensity issue? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And your subject line states a midyear target 17 on ignition propensity being a cigarette that 18 self-extinguishes within three minutes? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you remember that? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. By July of 1981, did you believe that you had 23 -- you and others had developed a cigarette that 24 would self-extinguish within three minutes? 25 A. It appears so from this document. It appears MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 142 1 so from this document. 2 Q. And, in fact, you state in the first paragraph 3 that during the past few months on your work on 4 ignition propensity there were several alternatives 5 produced for achieving the ultimate objectives of 6 the project. And you were specifically reporting 7 about what appeared to be the most promising 8 candidate, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And that was the X6D0B0L prototype? 11 A. It would be D-O-B-O-L, yeah. 12 Q. Is it D-O-B-O-L? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. What does that name or its prototypical name 15 stand for, or what meaning does it have? 16 A. It has "X" for experimental cigarette, 17 six something is sequence; and they just then take 18 -- in other words, five letters, and that's how 19 far they are. If you -- I don't know what kind of 20 a thing, but I guess they start new. Every time 21 they run out of the last letter, they move to the 22 next letter, and they just keeping going with the 23 A, B, C, D, and they just keep moving across. It's 24 just an arbitrary designation. 25 Q. In the last sentence of paragraph one, you MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 143 1 mentioned the model that we just talked about, 2 which appeared to meet the requirements set for the 3 July 1, '81, prototype. What was the July 1, 1981, 4 prototype? 5 A. I don't know. In other words, we -- in the 6 beginning of the year, we made a plan that said by 7 midyear we should have -- you know, we're going to 8 aim to accomplish certain things. 9 Q. In this instance, a cigarette that 10 self-extinguishes in three minutes? 11 A. (Witness nods head). 12 Q. And at least in this report, this midyear 13 report of 1981, you reported to Leo Meyer that you 14 had such a cigarette in a prototypical form? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And the first method of achieving this three 17 minute self-extinguishment was through using the 18 coded rings on the paper, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And as I understand that procedure, the -- 21 there are rings coded on the -- along the 22 circumference -- 23 A. Circumferential, yeah. Bands actually. 24 Q. Bands around the cigarette. And when the coal 25 reaches the level, if there's not active smoking, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 144 1 the static burn ceases, correct? 2 A. The paper with the bands. Basically the 3 purpose is to make the paper nonporous so it won't 4 burn. 5 Q. An alternative means of producing the same 6 three minute self-extinguishment you said may be 7 attained by modifying the inherent properties of 8 the cigarette by forcing it to self-extinguish in a 9 specific time if not puffed? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you remember what you were referring to at 12 that time? 13 A. Just decreasing the porosity to where you were 14 choking it, but not quite so much to go out. 15 Q. And you noted that the X6DOBOL illustrated the 16 latter approach, and that's reducing the 17 porosity -- 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. -- as a prototype that would achieve the 20 result of three minute self-extinguishment, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. This prototype was manufactured with a 24 commercial blend of tobaccos; in other words, you 25 went and replicated the blends from commercial MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 145 1 cigarettes in a controlled fashion? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You used the nonporous phosphate paper and 4 72nd paper from Schweitzer? 5 A. 72nd specifically points, exactly how 6 nonporous it was. 7 Q. Okay. And it was manufactured -- or actually 8 fabricated by Schweitzer, correct? 9 A. The paper? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What does the code P.O.S.A. refer to? 13 A. I don't know. I don't know. 14 Q. And when you tested this particular prototype, 15 the X6, its ignition propensity was calculated to 16 be 8.7 minutes on the furniture mock-up? 17 A. Yes. That's what it says, yes. 18 Q. Which is very -- has a very low ignition 19 propensity? 20 A. Well, I -- yes. I mean, on the basis of the 21 number that we got. But that number can be 22 achieved by all cigarettes remain, you know, lit 23 with no ignition; or if two cigarettes go out and 24 two would cause ignition in two minutes, you'd come 25 up with that same number. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 146 1 Q. Well, you say that the ignition propensity of 2 the X6 was 8.7 minutes, while most commercial 3 cigarettes, including the More, ignited the mock-up 4 within two minutes? 5 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection; you didn't 6 read it right. It's ignition propensity index as 7 opposed to some generic or ignition propensity. 8 A. That was -- the calculations that we were 9 doing. 10 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Well, was there more than 11 one index? 12 A. No. But the calculation is time to ignition. 13 And we said if a cigarette self-extinguished, it 14 was given a number 10. Okay. So if two cigarettes 15 extinguished and two continued to burn, to get an 16 8.7, it would be the other. It would be about four 17 minutes or so to that burn. 18 Q. It would be an average, in other words? 19 A. Yes, it is an average of those four, a 20 statistical average of those four. 21 Q. Well, is an 8.7 ignition propensity index 22 considered to be good? 23 A. It indicates, yes, that you have something 24 that -- even if you have some that self-extinguish, 25 those that remain -- I mean, that is, you have MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 147 1 three that self-extinguish -- I mean, that 2 self-extinguished and one burned, then that 3 wouldn't really indicate anything. That would 4 indicate that you just, you know, you had a -- that 5 kind of a situation. 6 If they all continue to burn and they have 7 this kind of a thing, then that would really be, 8 yes. 9 Q. Of course, if they self-extinguish, they're 10 not likely to cause a fire? So 11 self-extinguishment's not necessarily bad? 12 A. Well, it would not be -- it would not be all 13 four. It would not be all four self-extinguish; 14 otherwise, it would have been a 10. 15 Q. And the ignition propensity index was the way 16 Philip Morris in the 1980s, while this research was 17 going on, quantified how well a tested subject did 18 in terms of ignition propensity, right? 19 A. That was -- yeah, that was the -- yeah, time 20 to ignition. 21 Q. Yeah. And the range was from zero to 10 with 22 most commercial brands averaging about two minutes? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. And this prototype, the X6, averaged 8.7 25 minutes? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 148 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. You say in the following paragraph that the 3 cigarette--and I assume you're talking about the 4 X6--was made for another purpose; is that right? 5 A. Uh-huh. 6 Q. What purpose was it made for? 7 A. I don't remember. I don't know. 8 Q. And it was submitted for routine analysis, it 9 said, earlier in the year with various dilution 10 filters? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you tested the undiluted version, correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. And the X6, when tested, had a 27.61 total 15 particulate matter analysis, correct? 16 A. Yes. It was -- 17 Q. Is that within the range of commercial 18 cigarettes? 19 A. No. 20 Q. How much higher is it? 21 A. About -- well, almost double. 22 Q. And had a nicotine analysis of 1.63? 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. Is that within the range of commercial 25 cigarettes? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 149 1 A. No. It would be upper range. 2 Q. The upper end of the range? 3 A. (Witness nods head). 4 Q. And how about H2O? 5 A. Water is of no consequence. 6 Q. And the tar analysis, 21.30? 7 A. That's high. 8 Q. Is it higher than the range for commercial 9 cigarettes? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You state in the next paragraph that all 12 deliveries decreased with dilution of the 13 cigarette; in other words, when it was filtered? 14 A. This was -- no. The other cigarettes that 15 were tested analytically, you know, by diluted and 16 we used then -- they indicated that the deliveries 17 were reduced. But the puff count, of course, 18 increased. 19 Q. So that I'll understand what you were doing 20 here, the analytical findings, total particulate 21 matter down to CO, that was made without a filter? 22 A. No. It had a filter, but the filter was not 23 diluted. It was not a dilution filter. 24 Q. All right. It didn't -- let me restate that. 25 The X6 was a nondiluted filter? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 150 1 MR. CRAMPTON: The X6DOBOL you're 2 talking about here? 3 MR. GRISHAM: Right. 4 A. That cigarette was made with nondiluted filter 5 and with several levels of dilution. Dilution was 6 introduced at the filter end. We tested the model 7 that was undiluted. 8 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) So the analytical results in 9 Exhibit 11 -- 10 A. -- are for the undiluted model through eight 11 puffs. The cigarette would have more than eight 12 puffs. 13 Q. What's the average, about 12 to 14? 14 A. Eight, seven. 15 Q. So that I'll understand, the analysis here 16 would not necessarily be this high if the X6DOBOL 17 were filtered? 18 A. This was a filtered cigarette. 19 Q. Diluted? 20 A. If it were diluted. If it were diluted, they 21 would not be so high. But the number of puffs 22 would increase. So the total delivery then would 23 be high. 24 Q. Okay. What you're saying is, then, if it were 25 diluted, the -- MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 151 1 A. -- the puff count increases. 2 Q. -- puff count would increase as resistance to 3 draw increased? 4 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection; that's not 5 what he said. 6 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Well, is that true or not? 7 A. No, that's not -- I mean, no. 8 Q. Why would dilution increase the puff count? 9 A. Because now you're bringing in air from the 10 filter end to satisfy your puff volume, and you're 11 not bringing it through the cone where it would 12 accelerate the burn rate. 13 Q. And so there would be more puffs for that 14 particular cigarette if diluted? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How many more? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. The dilution would not affect the ignition 19 propensity you find here? 20 A. That's -- yeah. Well, we probably didn't test 21 it, but intuitively one would say that wouldn't 22 make that much difference one way or the other. 23 Q. So that I'll understand here the science of 24 it, with the dilution of this X6DOBOL you expected 25 the puff count to increase, which would increase MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 152 1 the total delivery? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. In other words, persons smoking this cigarette 4 would, because they are having -- they're 5 experiencing more puffs, would be subjected to or 6 have delivery of all of these particular analytical 7 components of the cigarette? 8 A. Even higher. Even higher. Because as you 9 slow down, as you increase the number of puffs, the 10 amount of cigarette that normally burns during the 11 free burn time would even be less. 12 In other words, you slow down for the whole 13 duration. And so now you're really smoking much 14 more tobacco during the puff mode. 15 Q. So in terms of what's delivered into your 16 system, one cigarette might, roughly, equal two? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And one way to alter the puff count would be 19 to shorten the length of the rod, volume of 20 tobacco? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you went on to report that Leo Meyer -- to 23 Leo Meyer that the X6DOBOL provided a reasonably 24 normal smoke taste? 25 A. My opinion. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 153 1 Q. Okay. And did you submit that to any panel 2 testing? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Was it internal panel testing only? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Was it submitted in terms of a ballot and just 7 like the panel tests were done as described by you 8 earlier in the deposition? 9 A. I don't know specifically. But it was 10 evaluated by -- evaluated blindly. You know, in 11 other words, whenever you give to a panel a 12 cigarette, you don't tell them which -- what it 13 is. 14 Q. Do you recall specifically the results from 15 the panel testing of the X6DOBOL? 16 A. No, I don't remember specifically. 17 Q. And you reported the advantages of this 18 prototype to Mr. Meyer to be normal manufacturing 19 procedure; in other words, you could make it with 20 then known technical manufacturing procedures, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. It looked normal? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. It could be flavored to achieve normal taste? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 154 1 A. It was a personal opinion. 2 Q. That was your opinion? 3 A. Yes. Yeah, I hope that you understand this 4 was a medial report. I was meeting my goals. If 5 this was successful, then it was a benefit to 6 me--tremendous benefit. And I just -- just a 7 minute ago, I just realized that at that time I had 8 three children in college, and one of them at Duke. 9 MR. CRAMPTON: There's no question 10 pending. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 12 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) But you're not saying that 13 you would have -- 14 A. No, no. 15 Q. -- colored your research because you had 16 personal gain? 17 A. No, no, no. 18 Q. I didn't think that you were saying that. 19 A. No. All I'm saying is I was trying to be as 20 optimistic as I could. 21 Q. All right. So you were being optimistic, but 22 you certainly were not misstating the results of 23 your research? 24 A. Absolutely not. 25 Q. And this prototype that had been developed MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 155 1 could be smoked normally without apparent problems? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And it could being diluted to provide low 4 deliveries, correct? 5 A. Let's see here, yes. Let's see, yes. 6 Q. It self-extinguish within three minutes or so, 7 which met the goals -- 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. -- that you had set forth or that -- 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. -- had been set forth for you, correct? 12 A. Yes, yes. 13 Q. And it drastically reduced ignition 14 propensity? 15 A. Yes. That's what it says. 16 Q. All of this had been achieved by July 23rd, 17 1981? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Now it had disadvantages, which you reported 20 to your superior? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. It burned slowly? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. It provided a large number of puffs, correct? 25 A. Yes. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 156 1 Q. But puff count increases considerably, you 2 wrote, goes out if not puffed? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Let me go back over that because I left out a 5 sentence, and I didn't mean to do that all, I'm 6 sorry. 7 The disadvantages, again, were that it 8 burned slowly and provided a large number of puffs, 9 it yielded high tar -- what is NO? 10 A. Nitric oxide. 11 Q. Nitric oxide and -- 12 A. Carbon monoxide. 13 Q. -- carbon monoxide, but deliveries could be -- 14 deliveries could be reduced with dilution, right? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. But the puff count increases considerably and 17 it goes out if not puffed, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. GRISHAM: We need to change tapes. 20 (Brief recess.) 21 (Kallianos Exhibit No. 12 was 22 marked for identification.) 23 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Dr. Kallianos, I've handed 24 you an exhibit marked as Exhibit No. 12, which 25 purports to be a memorandum to Barbro Goodman from MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 157 1 Angela Smith in 1987. Have you seen that 2 memorandum before? 3 A. No, I have not. 4 Q. Do you know who Angela Smith was? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you recall any research having been done to 7 the -- along the lines of the ignition propensity 8 research on the D7TL prototype? 9 A. No, I don't. 10 Q. That was mentioned in that -- 11 A. No, I would not. 12 (Kallianos Exhibit No. 13 was 13 marked for identification.) 14 A. I'm ready, yeah. 15 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Do you recognize Exhibit 13? 16 A. No, I don't. 17 Q. It's not one you remember seeing in the past? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. By 1984 you had moved more into the sidestream 20 smoke area of your research, as I recall? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Do you remember reviewing any subjective panel 23 tests on Marlboro Light controls? 24 A. Me reviewing? 25 Q. Yes. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 158 1 A. No. 2 Q. Do you recall learning of any experimental 3 cigarettes that Marlboro '85 smokers rated as equal 4 to their own? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you remember a circumstance whereby Philip 7 Morris began to research the issues of 8 repositioning Marlboros and Merits to develop 9 cigarettes with reduced ignition propensities 10 relative to the current -- then current commercial 11 brands? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you remember considering the Virginia Slim 14 120 as being -- as having an ignition propensity 15 index that was greater than, say, for instance, 16 Marlboro-type prototypes? 17 A. No. 18 (Kallianos Exhibit Nos. 14 and 15 19 were marked for identification.) 20 MR. GRISHAM: They are numbered 14 and 21 15. I want to look at 15 first. Specifically 22 pages 22 and 23 are the primary areas of inquiry. 23 MR. CRAMPTON: This appears to be a 24 document written by you. I recommend that you read 25 it to make sure that you're familiar with it. If MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 159 1 you have enough of a recollection that you don't 2 need to read the whole document, then you don't 3 need to. I just want to make sure that you're 4 familiar with what you're testifying. 5 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah. After we identify 6 it, I'm going to move to page 22 and 23, the 7 summaries and conclusions. 8 THE WITNESS: The December date here 9 appears to be obliterated. That says December 1981 10 or 1980, which one? 11 MR. CRAMPTON: This is dated '82. 12 THE WITNESS: Right. But I mean, the 13 period covered. It says -- 14 MR. GRISHAM: I believe it's to be '81, 15 but I'm not sure. 16 THE WITNESS: That's the only thing, 17 yeah. April -- 18 MR. CRAMPTON: We can check. We have 19 an earlier copy of it. We can check on that. 20 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Dr. Kallianos, does 21 Exhibit 15 appear to be a copy of a report that was 22 written by you and Randy Greene? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And it was approved by your supervisor Frank 25 Daylor, and it was also approved by Randy -- I MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 160 1 guess it was Randy Greene's supervisor, Mr. Gauvin? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. It was distributed to your hierarchical -- how 4 do you say that? 5 A. Hierarchical. 6 Q. -- hierarchical superiors, at least 7 Dr. Seligman and Leo Meyer? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And it was dated April 19th, 1982? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And as you pointed out, it covers a period 12 from May 1980 to December either 1980 or '81. We 13 can't tell because the copy's not real good. 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Do you remember taking part in the development 16 of this special report? 17 A. Yes, I probably wrote it. 18 Q. And the title of the report was Ignition 19 Propensity of Cigarettes, correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What brought about this report being prepared? 22 A. We had to write annual reports. And this 23 appears to be -- oh, this was a special report. So 24 I guess they wanted -- so it was some kind of an 25 interim report that sort of summarized our efforts MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 161 1 for the period of time stated. 2 Q. Okay. And it has some keywords at the bottom 3 in a box. What are those? What were those 4 keywords placed there for? 5 A. Those are the keywords for the file so that 6 you can -- searching, you can punch any of those to 7 retrieve this document, any of these keywords. Or 8 if you're searching for keywords like National 9 Bureau of Standards, what kind of interaction, 10 where they would just punch and you would just get 11 all documents that would have this kind of keyword. 12 Q. And that was to be -- that could be searched 13 then on the computers at Philip Morris? 14 A. For searching, yeah, for searching purposes. 15 Q. Next, if you would, I'd like for you to turn 16 to pages 22 and 23, which are the summaries and 17 conclusions of the report and take a moment to 18 review that. I have a question or two about that. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. On pages 22 and 23, which are Bates No. 1048 21 and 1049, it appears that you and Mr. Greene 22 summarized the conclusions you had reached in this 23 special report. And you talked about some of the 24 efforts that had been used to reduce ignition 25 propensity in the testing environment. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 162 1 And the last paragraph of the summary says 2 that on the basis of the work to date, you were 3 forced to conclude that the total risk of ignition 4 of upholstered furniture by a cigarette handled in 5 a careless manner cannot be obviated without 6 incurring penalties, and that the penalties, under 7 current technology, are quite severe. 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. What were you referring to in that paragraph? 10 What did you mean? 11 A. I mean -- you're talking about the penalties 12 that we have to pay particularly? 13 Q. (Nods head). 14 A. The penalties is high deliveries, high puff 15 count, subjectives of the cigarettes being 16 negative. 17 Q. Now, high deliveries meant the analytical 18 components we've talked about -- 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. -- increased, which you and I discussed before 21 the break. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. The higher puff count is the fact that there 24 were -- with the decrease in porosity of the paper 25 there were greater -- there were a greater number MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 163 1 of puffs in the cigarette? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And then there was some subjective concerns 4 that you had about about flavor? 5 A. Yes. And they become progressively severe as 6 you decrease the porosity. 7 Q. And this report was written after the work you 8 had done on the X6 -- 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. -- DOBOL; is that right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Was the X6DOBOL referenced in any of the 13 tables attached to -- 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. -- Exhibit No. 15? 16 A. I don't know, I didn't look at the tables. 17 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't tell you I was going to 18 ask that question. 19 A. Looking at deliveries and ignition propensity 20 index, I don't see that model there. 21 Q. Would you take a look at Exhibit 14? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 14? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Is Exhibit 14 a presentation that you made on MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 164 1 ignition propensities of cigarettes in November of 2 1981? 3 A. It appears so. 4 Q. And these were -- was this an outline of the 5 presentation that you gave? 6 A. Slides, yeah. 7 Q. Oh, it was a slide show? 8 A. Transparencies, yes. 9 Q. Okay. And so you talked to a group of 10 persons, and as you talked, these particular pages 11 of Exhibit 14 were placed on the overhead viewer so 12 that everyone in the room could see the outline? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. And the first page of Exhibit 14 appears to be 15 a distribution sheet inviting people to attend your 16 presentation? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And that was from Leo Meyer? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you, in fact, gave this presentation and 21 on page 0953 I assumed you talked to the 22 participants about the index -- propensity index of 23 the commercial brands? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Are these actual brands that had been studied MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 165 1 at Philip Morris for their ignition propensities? 2 A. Yes. I evaluated -- I mean, these were 3 evaluated. 4 Q. And the most promising one from the commercial 5 brands listed on Bates No. 0953 was the More 6 cigarette, correct? 7 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection; it doesn't 8 say on there that it's promising. 9 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah. Those are my 10 words. 11 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) If you don't agree with me 12 that was the most promising brand, then please tell 13 me. 14 A. The one that had the longest ignition -- time 15 to ignition, longest. That's the one. 16 Q. Was the More cigarette? 17 A. The More, yes. 18 Q. Why did it have the longest time to ignition? 19 A. Let's see, More cigarette was buff color. It 20 has lower porosity. 21 Q. Because of the paper? 22 A. Yes. Yeah, when I say "porosity," I mean 23 paper porosity. 24 Q. Okay, thank you. And it had an ignition 25 propensity index of, what, 1.9, according to that MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 166 1 series of tests? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. On page 0957, part of your presentation dealt 4 with wrapper physicals? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you noted in there that the St. Pastou 7 paper had an ignition propensity index of 4.5, 8 correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 MR. CRAMPTON: I wanted to interpose 11 something on here. I note that -- it appears that 12 you put a sticker on and this was photocopied with 13 the sticker on. The arrow in the exhibit is not as 14 it is in the file. 15 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah. Fair enough, 16 yeah. There's an arrow that appears to -- it's 17 just our notation. As a matter of fact, it's still 18 on my copy here. I'll stipulate that's not part of 19 the original. 20 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Were there any disadvantages 21 to the St. Pastou corrugated-type wrapper? 22 A. I cannot recollect. 23 Q. You also mention the Schweitzer sodium 24 silicate coating? 25 A. Yes. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 167 1 Q. 10 percent, does that relate to how much area 2 of the cigarette is coated? 3 A. No. It means the solution applied at that 4 level on the paper. 5 Q. Okay, thank you. And it had a ignition 6 propensity index of 2.3? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. And on page 0959, you discuss wrapper 9 additives that were experimental in nature with the 10 group? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And the one that you discussed with the 13 longest ignition propensity index was, what, the 14 calcium -- 15 A. Calcium chloride. 16 Q. -- chloride? And that, in fact, extinguished? 17 A. Infinity. It just -- 18 Q. Infinity. 19 A. Yeah. All cigarettes just went out. 20 Q. Do you recall any disadvantages to that 21 experimental type of paper? 22 A. No, I can't recall. But, I mean, there are 23 some obvious disadvantages. There's a tendency for 24 wanting as little chloride as possible--I don't 25 know why--number one. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 168 1 Number two, if this had this kind of a 2 thing, that means you probably could not keep it 3 lit. And one more thing, calcium chloride is a 4 hygroscopic substance. It -- you know, it absorbs 5 water. And eventually what would happen in a pack 6 of cigarettes you would dry the tobacco and you 7 would wet the thing and you would have a mess. 8 Q. There was also magnesium and -- is it 9 magnesium -- 10 A. Sulphate. 11 Q. -- sulphate? 12 A. Sulphate. 13 Q. And that had an ignition propensity index of 14 3.4? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Were there any disadvantages to that wrapper 17 that you recall? 18 A. I don't know. But magnesium sulfate's pretty 19 much what you're looking here. You're looking at 20 salts that hydrate, and magnesium sulphate is a 21 dehydrating agent. So it would... 22 (Kallianos Exhibit Nos. 16 and 17 23 were marked for identification.) 24 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Do you recognize either 25 Exhibit 16 or 17? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 169 1 A. Neither one. I don't recognize either one. 2 Q. They appear to be quarterly status reports 3 from Barbro Goodman? 4 A. Yes, that's what they appear to be. 5 Q. Okay. And they are dated -- can you tell me 6 when they purport to be dated? 7 A. The first one has a date of January 1, 1983, 8 and the other one has -- what does that say? I 9 don't know. I cannot read it. 10 MR. CRAMPTON: It looks like 1/1/83 11 also, but I can't say for sure. 12 MR. GRISHAM: For the record, it's 13 either -- well, I don't know what it is. For the 14 record, we don't know when it's dated, apparently. 15 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) During the January 1983 time 16 period, had you moved on to the sidestream smoke 17 areas of studies? 18 A. I cannot remember. But it would be -- this is 19 January of '83? If -- 20 Q. Both quarterly status reports -- I'm sorry, I 21 didn't give you time to answer. I'm getting in too 22 big of a hurry. 23 A. If I were, I was phasing out myself. 24 Q. Barbro Goodman entitled both of these 25 quarterly status reports Project Hamlet, didn't MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 170 1 she? 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 Q. And the objectives for both were to develop 4 methodology for assessing the ignition propensity 5 of cigarettes and to develop technology to produce 6 a cigarette with decreased propensity to ignite 7 upholstered furniture, right? 8 A. That's what it says. 9 Q. And those were the same objectives you had 10 made in your quarterly reports? 11 A. Exactly. 12 Q. When you were more involved in the ignition 13 propensity studies in the early '80s, were you and 14 Barbro Goodman working in a collaborative fashion 15 or were you pursuing separate lines of research? 16 A. It was collaborative. 17 Q. Do you recall learning of or hearing of -- and 18 I'm reading here from No. 2 on the status report of 19 Marlboro-type cigarettes. 20 A. No. 17 or No. 2? Oh, No. 2 on 17? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. Do you remember hearing of or learning of a 24 Marlboro-type cigarette that does not ignite fabric 25 designed to give equal tar per puff or total tar? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 171 1 A. No, I don't remember. 2 Q. What is the significance of puff count in the 3 sales of cigarettes? 4 A. I don't know that a puff count is, you know, 5 high just per se. Usually high puff count means 6 high deliveries, as a general rule. 7 And the industry, from internal and external 8 pressures, has been moving towards -- has moved, 9 actually, for a very long time towards lower tar. 10 And so that would then negate -- you know, going 11 that direction would negate all the whatever 12 advantages there may have been through this -- to 13 get us today. 14 Q. At the risk of sounding too simple--maybe I 15 am--but if one cigarette has a puff count of 8 and 16 another one has a puff count of 16, smoking two of 17 the reduced puff count cigarettes would seem to me 18 to equal? 19 MR. CRAMPTON: All other things being 20 equal? 21 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Yeah. All other things 22 being equal. 23 A. That's true. 24 Q. Have you been made aware of any concern at 25 Philip Morris that puff count would affect number MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 172 1 of cigarettes sold? 2 A. No. 3 Q. If a typical smoker is provided with 4 cigarettes -- a cigarette that has a higher puff 5 count, will that smoker, in your opinion, smoke a 6 fewer number of cigarettes in a given day? 7 A. If he were given cigarettes with more puff 8 count, would he smoke fewer per day? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. Intuitively, one would say probably. 11 (Kallianos Exhibit No. 18 was 12 marked for identification.) 13 MR. GRISHAM: While you're looking at 14 that, I've got a few more questions I'll run along 15 here. 16 MR. CRAMPTON: Okay. I mean, I'll have 17 to try to look at this and listen to those 18 questions at the same time, but go ahead. 19 MR. GRISHAM: Okay. I'll talk slowly. 20 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Dr. Kallianos, do you know 21 what the production cost impact of reducing a 22 cigarette circumference is? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you know if there's a cost impact related 25 to using expanded tobaccos? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 173 1 A. I'm sure there's -- well, of course, the 2 expansion process costs money. So I don't know how 3 the thing is going to cost. It's used as a means 4 to do other things. 5 Q. Do you know if there's a production cost 6 impact with regard to increasing the paper 7 thickness and lowering the porosity? 8 A. A cost? A cost -- 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. -- in terms of money -- monetary costs? 11 Q. Yes, monetary costs. 12 A. No. 13 Q. You don't know or there's not? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Okay. Have you done any studies or read any 16 studies that would make you aware of any cost 17 increases to using chemical additives such as 18 silica gel to cigarettes? 19 A. No. 20 MR. CRAMPTON: You said silica gel as 21 opposed to SOL-GEL? 22 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah, silica. 23 THE WITNESS: Silica gel. 24 MR. GRISHAM: Go ahead and look at the 25 exhibit. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 174 1 MR. CRAMPTON: This is from a project 2 that he testified earlier he didn't know anything 3 about. 4 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah. 5 MR. CRAMPTON: I don't know if you want 6 him to fully read it. 7 MR. GRISHAM: I don't. If he would 8 kind of familiarize -- 9 THE WITNESS: No. I mean, go ahead, 10 ask. 11 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah. I had this on the 12 list, and I wasn't aware you didn't have any 13 knowledge of it. 14 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Basically I've handed you an 15 exhibit numbered 18? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And it's Bates numbered 3254 dealing with 18 Project Delta, and you told me earlier that you had 19 not worked with Project Delta? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Either Phase 1 or 2 or any prototypes 22 developed for that project, correct? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Have you done any work on any flameless 25 cigarette projects at Philip Morris? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 175 1 A. No. 2 MR. CRAMPTON: Flameless cigarette? 3 I'm just trying to think, because I don't think of 4 cigarettes as flaming anyway. 5 MR. GRISHAM: Okay. 6 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Well, have you done any work 7 with cigarettes that did not -- that were not 8 burning that would provide deliveries of nicotine 9 to the recipient? 10 A. I have not done any work. 11 Q. Have you worked on any alternative heat source 12 cigarettes with heating coils or other devices? 13 A. I'm familiar with the R.J. Reynolds product. 14 That kind of a thing? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. No. 17 Q. When a cigarette is in static burn, what is 18 the temperature at the coal, the temperature range? 19 A. Static mode, static mode. I think it's about 20 somewhere around 600, 620 or 650, something like 21 that degrees. 22 Q. Degrees centigrade? 23 A. Centigrade, yes. 24 Q. And when it's being puffed, it's closer to 900 25 degrees centigrade, isn't it? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 176 1 A. Approximately, yes. 2 (Kallianos Exhibit Nos. 19 and 20 3 were marked for identification.) 4 A. I'm ready on 19. 5 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Can you identify Exhibit 6 No. 19? 7 A. Can I identify it in what respect? 8 Q. Have you seen it before? 9 A. No. 10 Q. You don't recall attending any meeting in 11 February of 1985 in Richmond dealing with Project 12 Hamlet? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. And you mentioned earlier that you had heard 15 the term "Hamlet" around, but you don't -- didn't 16 know specifically what it dealt with? 17 A. What it dealt with, yeah. 18 Q. And Exhibit 20 -- 19 MR. CRAMPTON: Exhibit 20 I'd like to 20 point out, it appears to me to be multiple 21 documents with different dates on it, and so when 22 you -- I don't have a problem with that as long as 23 we're clear on this deposition that this appears to 24 be a bunch of documents put together. 25 And as you look at it, Doctor, please note MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 177 1 that there may be different documents with 2 different dates on it. 3 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah, that's fine. If 4 the implication is we've attached more, we 5 haven't. They're all sequential. 6 MR. CRAMPTON: They are sequential? 7 Okay. I mean, I looked at that. I just noticed 8 that there were some handwritten notes dated one 9 day. There appears to be overheads undated, 10 another document with another date. 11 MR. GRISHAM: That's right. 12 A. Okay. I have looked at them. 13 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Are you familiar with the 14 collection of documents which are Exhibit 20? 15 A. This has a memorandum here that says this 16 memorandum was sent to me. I don't recollect this 17 stuff. 18 Q. Okay. It's exhibit -- Bates No. 1177 has your 19 name on it -- 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- that was a 1985 interoffice correspondence 22 that you were copied on, correct; is that right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And it dealt with a meeting to occur in 25 January of 1985? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 178 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And it dealt with ignition propensity -- 3 A. It dealt with the meeting to be held in 4 February. 5 Q. Okay. Certainly, thank you. And it dealt 6 with the ignition propensity program review, 7 correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Why by 1985 were you still being included in 10 ignition propensity work carbon copies? 11 A. All you're seeing here is all of the 12 principals and associate principal scientists 13 copied. 14 Q. Do you know whether or not you attended the 15 meeting, or do you recall? 16 A. I would be expected to have attended the 17 meeting, but I cannot remember. But I should have 18 attended the meeting. 19 Q. I want you to turn to page 1196 and look with 20 me for a moment on that list of cigarettes that 21 appear were tested for time to ignition. And it 22 appears that the Virginia Slims 120 had been 23 tested? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And it ranked 2.7 on the propensity -- MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 179 1 A. -- ignition propensity. 2 Q. -- index, yes. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you know under what circumstances the 5 Virginia Slims 120 was tested by Philip Morris? 6 A. No. It says here they was testing slim 120 7 cigarettes. So there aren't that many on the 8 market and so they tested. 9 Q. And Virginia Slims 120 is a Philip Morris 10 product, isn't it? 11 A. Yes. 12 (Kallianos Exhibit No. 21 was 13 marked for identification.) 14 A. Okay. Go ahead. 15 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Okay. Are you familiar with 16 Exhibit 21? 17 A. No. 18 Q. By 1987 you were not as involved in the 19 ignition propensity research as you had been in the 20 early '80s, correct? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Exhibit 21 purports to be a revised board talk 23 by Cliff Lilly? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Do you know Cliff Lilly? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 180 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What was his role at Philip Morris? 3 A. 1987, about that time somewhere he was a 4 research fellow. He was the highest research 5 grade, if you please. 6 Q. Did he have a Ph.D. like yourself? 7 A. He did not have a Ph.D., but he obtained a 8 Ph.D. while he worked at -- he didn't have a Ph.D. 9 while -- for some period of time. 10 Q. Do you know where he got his Ph.D.? 11 A. Yeah. V.P.I., Virginia Post Technical 12 Institute up in -- 13 COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, say that 14 again. 15 THE WITNESS: V.P.I., Virginia Post 16 Technical Institute. 17 Do they know where it is--at Blacksburg, 18 Virginia? 19 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Yes. 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. On page 3276, sort of in the middle of the 22 lower ignition propensity portion of this exhibit, 23 first paragraph, second sentence, the author wrote: 24 "While cigarette circumference rod weight, blend 25 type, paper porosity and paper additive are among MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 181 1 the factors available for modifying ignition 2 propensity, it was found that a single variable, 3 the mass burn rate of the cigarette, is the 4 principal performance factor which can be related 5 to the time to ignition, which is in minutes." 6 Do you agree with that, sir? 7 A. I don't know. I mean, if mass burn rate is 8 meant to imply that the slower the cigarette would 9 burn, then the longer the time, then I think that's 10 a reasonable. 11 Q. You don't really know exactly what they're 12 talking about by mass burn rate in this context, do 13 you? 14 A. That's right, no, I don't. 15 MR. CRAMPTON: You are questioning him 16 about a document now that he hasn't read the whole 17 document. 18 MR. GRISHAM: I understand. 19 MR. CRAMPTON: And it's from the time 20 several years, apparently, after he was not working 21 on the -- 22 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah. That's why I asked 23 him about mass burn rate in this context. I'm not 24 sure he knows exactly. I'm not sure I know what it 25 means either. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 182 1 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) I'm quoting, "Independently 2 of how a cigarette modification is brought about, 3 cigarettes with the same mass burn rate will have 4 similar ignition performance." Is that something 5 you found in your studies? 6 A. We found that the slower the cigarette burns 7 -- you know, the longer the time to ignition 8 because of low porosity, I think is using mass burn 9 rate, which is what he is really talking about now 10 to pretty much say the same kind of a thing, but in 11 a different -- using a different parameter which 12 maybe is all in the same, but I don't know. 13 Q. Did you study mass burn rate in your 14 sidestream smoke work? 15 A. No. 16 (Kallianos Exhibit Nos. 22 and 23 17 were marked for identification.) 18 MR. CRAMPTON: This appears to cover a 19 lot of projects, doesn't it? 20 MR. GRISHAM: It does. 21 MR. CRAMPTON: Are you intending to 22 limit questioning to that portion of this document 23 that purports to relate to Project Hamlet? 24 MR. GRISHAM: Well, I hope to. I'm 25 going to look at pages 14, 18, 44, and 48. So I MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 183 1 think the answer is yes, but maybe not. 2 MR. CRAMPTON: I think we're going to 3 have to go off the record and take a look at this 4 thing. 5 MR. GRISHAM: Fair enough. 6 (Brief recess.) 7 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) First, Dr. Kallianos, do you 8 recognize Exhibit 22? 9 A. I can't remember it, but I recognize it as 10 being an annual report that I was copied on it. 11 Q. And it was dated June 13th, 1986? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Covering a period from June of '84 to '85? 14 A. To December of '85. 15 Q. And it was the annual report of the 16 development smoke studies? 17 A. Let's see, that's what -- yes. 18 Q. And that's the group Barbro Goodman had been 19 in? 20 A. That's that group, yes. 21 Q. On page 14 of that document, there's a 22 discussion of the use of nonporous wrappers in 23 relation to sidestream smoke reduction? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. The authors of the document here, which appear MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 184 1 to be Barbro Goodman and Mr. Gauvin, state that in 2 paragraph 1 of paragraph 5 on page 14 that "the 3 work on the nonporous wrappers for sidestream smoke 4 reduction was being done as a backup for defensive 5 purposes"? 6 A. You have to point out where it says that. 7 Q. Right here. 8 A. This what -- this what is being done -- being 9 done as a backup for defensive purposes, that's 10 what it says, yes. 11 Q. Do you know what that means? 12 A. No, not specifically, but -- I don't know what 13 she would mean by that. 14 Q. In your -- the course of your research or 15 research at Philip Morris that was conducted by 16 others, did you notice any connection between 17 results received from sidestream smoke tests to 18 ignition propensity? 19 A. Repeat that question again. 20 Q. Yeah. In your experience or through just your 21 being at Philip Morris and reviewing other people's 22 work or knowing of it, did you become aware of any 23 commonalities between the results of tests on 24 sidestream smoke and the results of tests on 25 ignition propensity? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 185 1 A. There was some commonality. As a cigarette 2 burns a little slower, there is a lower amount of 3 smoke produced per unit time. 4 Q. Okay. Did any candidate for a reduced 5 sidestream smoke cigarette lend itself to -- 6 perhaps for use as a reduced ignition propensity 7 cigarette that you're aware of? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you know if there have been any marketing, 10 commercial marketing, efforts made to make 11 available to the public a cigarette with a reduced 12 sidestream smoke component? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Let's go on to page 44. 15 A. 40? 44. 16 Q. It's in the meat of the Hamlet portion of the 17 report. 18 MR. CRAMPTON: I notice again you've 19 got one of the arrows on there, and there may have 20 been others that I didn't see. 21 MR. GRISHAM: Anytime there's an arrow, 22 I'll certainly stipulate I put it there, which it 23 does help -- 24 MR. CRAMPTON: It helps him find it. 25 MR. GRISHAM: -- helps him find it. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 186 1 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) The discussion of the Hamlet 2 program discusses the cigarette designated as the 3 Century? 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 Q. Was that a commercial brand of cigarette, as 6 opposed to some properties type? 7 A. Let's see, what does it say about Century? 8 MR. CRAMPTON: It does refer to it 9 there. 10 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I see that, but 11 I'm just trying to find out if she would evaluate 12 some other companies. 13 MR. CRAMPTON: Would it be fair, Lynn, 14 when you ask the question if he answers the 15 question based on his knowledge rather than trying 16 to review the document to interpret it for you. 17 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah. That would be 18 fine. If he'll read just enough of it to make sure 19 we know -- 20 MR. CRAMPTON: Well, you asked a 21 question about Century that he doesn't know and 22 he's beginning to look through the document to see 23 if he can find the answer. 24 A. No, I don't know. I don't know. 25 MR. GRISHAM: That's fine. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 187 1 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) You don't know if it's -- 2 fair enough. You don't know for sure if the 3 Century is a product -- a commercial product or, 4 what, you've never heard of it? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Or if you've heard of it, you've forgotten 7 about it? 8 A. Yeah. I mean, if I can't remember, it could 9 be that I have heard and I've forgotten, or I don't 10 remember. 11 Q. Was the Lucky Strike a Philip Morris product? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Who produced that? 14 A. American Tobacco Company. 15 Q. Do you recall doing any ignition propensity 16 studies on that cigarette? 17 A. I don't remember did we -- I mean, we had a 18 report that we wrote. 19 Q. Do you know when the Congressional committee 20 tested the nine different commercial brands which 21 particular Philip Morris cigarettes, if any, were 22 included in that nine cigarette group? 23 A. I had no involvement whatsoever with that. 24 Q. On page 48 of this document, there's a 25 computer program called Delivery, dot, EXE, dot, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 188 1 28. Are you familiar with that program? 2 A. Never heard of it. 3 Q. It purports, by this document, to maintain a 4 command called Zap which deletes sections of data 5 files, and a feature called Make--that's in quotes, 6 M-A-K-E--which creates a master file listing the 7 sections, titles and cigarette codes for any number 8 of data storage files. Are you familiar with those 9 commands? 10 A. None whatsoever. 11 (Kallianos Exhibit No. 24 was 12 marked for identification.) 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Have you ever seen that 15 document marked as Exhibit 24 before? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. In your discussions with Leo Meyer concerning 18 the ignition propensity studies that were 19 undertaken, did he ever advise you, in any terms, 20 that the goal was to create a reduced ignition 21 propensity cigarette but not market it until such 22 time as the government required it? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Have you ever worked on Project Sigma? 25 A. I don't -- no, I don't recollect. I don't MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 189 1 know what it is. 2 Q. During the time that you worked at Philip 3 Morris, do you recall Philip Morris contracting 4 with any private laboratory or other tobacco 5 companies, laboratories for testing of Philip 6 Morris commercial brands? 7 A. Testing, what kind of testing? 8 Q. Ignition propensity. 9 A. No. 10 Q. Were you ever told by your superiors at Philip 11 Morris not to test commercial Philip Morris 12 products for ignition propensity? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did you ever do so? 15 MR. CRAMPTON: Test or not test? 16 MR. GRISHAM: Test. 17 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Did you ever conduct any of 18 those tests? 19 A. Well, I did -- you know, I made the models 20 which were, you know, based exactly on those 21 commercial products. And I wanted that control 22 because I was interested in getting as low standard 23 deviation as possible. That would then give us 24 confidence in the numbers that we got and collect 25 small moves -- would be able to ascribe a MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 190 1 significance to them rather than say, well, it was 2 a small movement, we don't know how significant it 3 was. 4 Q. Did you bring any documents with you here 5 today? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you maintain any documents that were 8 generated by you or others at Philip Morris during 9 your work time there? 10 A. At where? My home, you mean? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. No. 13 Q. Or in the office? 14 A. No. What I meant is outside. Whatever was 15 with Philip Morris was left at Philip Morris. 16 MR. GRISHAM: Okay. Pass the witness. 17 MR. CRAMPTON: I'm not going to ask any 18 questions at this time. 19 20 21 (Whereupon deposition concluded 22 3:55 p.m., January 6, 1997.) 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 191 1 STATE OF ) 2 COUNTY OF ) 3 4 5 I HEREBY CERTIFY that the answers to 6 the questions propounded to me at this deposition 7 are true, and that the foregoing typewritten pages 8 represent a full, true and accurate record of my 9 testimony given in this deposition. 10 11 12 ANDREW KALLIANOS 13 14 15 16 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO before me by 17 the said witness, ANDREW KALLIANOS, on this the 18 day of , 1997. 19 20 21 22 NOTARY PUBLIC 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 192 1 CAUSE NO. 26,294 2 SHANNA SHIPMAN A/N/F OF * IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF 3 SHANNON MOORE, A MINOR, * Plaintiff * 4 * VS. * JOHNSON COUNTY, TEXAS 5 * PHILIP MORRIS COMPANIES, * 6 INC., PHILIP MORRIS * INCORPORATED, PHILIP * 7 MORRIS U.S.A. AND * SHELLY MOORE, * 8 Defendants * 18TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 9 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE OF FILING 10 ORAL DEPOSITION OF ANDREW KALLIANOS TAKEN ON JANUARY 6, 1997 11 I, TAMARA J. BRAUN, Certified Shorthand 12 Reporter in and for the State of Texas, hereby certify to the following: 13 That the witness, ANDREW KALLIANOS, was duly sworn by me; 14 That this transcript is a true record of the testimony given by the witness; 15 That the amount of charges for the preparation of this transcript and any copies of 16 exhibits is $ (paid by Plaintiff); That the deposition transcript was submitted 17 on the 22nd day of January, 1997, to the witness ( ) or to the attorney of record (X) for a party 18 who was a witness, for examination and signature with instructions for the return of the transcript 19 by the 10th day of March, 1997; submitted to Mr. William Crampton, Shook, Hardy & Bacon, 1200 20 Main Street, Kansas City, Missouri 64105; That changes, if any made by the witness, in 21 the transcript and otherwise are attached hereto to incorporate herein; 22 That the witness did ( ) or did not ( ) return the transcript; 23 That the original deposition transcript, or a copy thereof in the event the original was not 24 returned to the officer, together with copies of all exhibits, was delivered or duly mailed to 25 Mr. Lynn Grisham, Attorney for Plaintiff, Waltman & Grisham, 3833 South Texas Avenue, Suite 150, Bryan, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 193 1 Texas 77802; that person being the attorney or party who asked the first question appearing in the 2 transcript for safekeeping and use at trial; That a copy of this certificate was served 3 on all parties and the clerk of the court. 4 5 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND AND SEAL OF OFFICE on this the 21st day of January, 1997. 6 7 8 9 TAMARA J. BRAUN, CSR #3396 10 CSR Expiration: 12/31/97 Monica Weidmann & Associates 11 805 W. 10th Street, Suite 201 Austin, Texas 78701 12 (800) 969-2752 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752