1 1 CAUSE NO. 26,294 2 SHANNA SHIPMAN A/N/F OF ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF 3 SHANNON MOORE, A MINOR, ) Plaintiff, ) 4 ) VS. ) JOHNSON COUNTY, TEXAS 5 ) PHILIP MORRIS COMPANIES, ) 6 INC., PHILIP MORRIS ) INCORPORATED, PHILIP ) 7 MORRIS U.S.A. AND ) SHELLY MOORE, ) 8 Defendants ) 18TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 9 10 11 12 13 14 ORAL DEPOSITION 15 OF 16 ANDREW KALLIANOS 17 18 19 20 21 22 TAKEN JANUARY 6, 1997 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 2 1 I N D E X 2 PAGE 3 APPEARANCES - - - - - - - - - - - - - 4 4 INFORMATIONAL PARAGRAPH - - - - - - - 5 5 ERRATA PAGE - - - - - - - - - - - - - 6 6 7 THE WITNESS: ANDREW KALLIANOS 8 Examination By Mr. Grisham - - - 7 9 10 DEPOSITION CONCLUDED - - - - - - - - 190 11 WITNESS SIGNATURE PAGE - - - - - - - 191 12 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE PAGE - - - - - 192 13 14 15 E X H I B I T I N D E X 16 PAGE 17 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION MARKED 18 1 Organizational chart 89 created by Mr. Grisham 19 2 Components of the 90 20 organizational chart 21 3 Report by Mr. Kallianos 104 22 4 Philip Morris Incorporated 117 interoffice correspondence 23 5 Memo from Mr. Greene 117 24 6 History of fire resistant 117 25 cigarettes MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 3 1 E X H I B I T I N D E X (CONT'D.) 2 PAGE EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION MARKED 3 7 Proposed product from 117 4 Safer Cigarette Research Co. 5 8 Memo from Mr. Kallianos 127 regarding visit to N.B.S. 6 9 1981 memo from Mr. Greene 131 7 10 Quarterly status report 132 8 by Mr. Kallianos 9 11 Philip Morris Incorporated 140 interoffice correspondence 10 12 Memo from Angela Smith 156 11 13 Interoffice correspondence 157 12 14 Presentation given by 158 13 Mr. Kallianos 14 15 Report by Mr. Kallianos 158 and Mr. Greene 15 16 - 17 Quarterly status reports 168 16 by Ms. Goodman 17 18 Document relating to 172 Project Delta 18 19 Document relating to 176 19 Project Hamlet 20 20 Multiple documents 176 21 21 Revised Board Talk by 179 Mr. Lilly 22 22 Annual report - 6/13/86 182 23 23 Ignition Propensity Status 182 24 Report 25 24 Interoffice correspondence 188 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 4 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 3 For The Plaintiff: 4 Waltman & Grisham 3833 S. Texas Avenue, Ste. 150 5 Bryan, Texas 77802 6 By: LYNN GRISHAM 7 For The Defendant, Philip Morris, et al: 8 Carrington, Coleman, Sloman 9 & Blumenthal 200 Crescent Court, Ste. 1500 10 Dallas, Texas 75201 11 By: MIKE BRADEN 12 For The Defendant, Philip Morris, et al: 13 Shook, Hardy & Bacon 14 1200 Main Street Kansas City, Missouri 64105 15 By: WILLIAM CRAMPTON 16 Also By: JOHN FRASER 17 ANDREW KALLIANOS, 18 The Witness 19 TAMARA J. BRAUN, 20 Certified Shorthand Reporter 21 ALSO PRESENT: Tim Bishop, Videographer 22 Steve Discher 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 5 1 ANSWERS AND DEPOSITION OF ANDREW KALLIANOS, 2 a witness called by the Plaintiffs, taken before 3 Tamara J. Braun, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in 4 and for the State of Texas, on the 6th day of 5 January, 1997, between the hours of 10:00 a.m. and 6 4:00 p.m.; in the offices of Carrington, Coleman, 7 Sloman & Blumenthal, 200 Crescent Court, Suite 8 1500, Dallas, Texas, pursuant to the notice of 9 counsel for the respective parties as hereinafter 10 set forth. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 6 1 CHANGES MADE TO DEPOSITION 2 Rule 205, "No erasures or obliterations of 3 any kind are to be made to the original testimony as transcribed by the deposition officer. Any 4 changes in form or substance which the witness desires to make shall be furnished to the 5 deposition officer by the witness, together with a statement of the reasons given by the witness for 6 making such changes." Please enter the page number, line number, 7 and the reason for such change or correction. 8 Page/Line Correction Reason for Correction 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ANDREW KALLIANOS MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 7 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. GRISHAM: 3 Q. Dr. Kallianos, would you state your full name 4 for the record, please? 5 A. Middle name included? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. Andrew George Kallianos, K-a-l-l-i-a-n-o-s. 8 Q. Dr. Kallianos, my name is Lynn Grisham. I'm 9 an attorney representing the plaintiffs in a 10 lawsuit that's been filed in Johnson County, Texas 11 against Philip Morris U.S.A. and other entities. 12 Do you understand who I am? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Have you ever had your deposition taken 15 before? 16 A. Not really this kind of a situation. 17 Q. Now, you've had an opportunity to visit with 18 attorneys that represent Philip Morris U.S.A., 19 haven't you? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And I assume that they've explained to you, in 22 general terms, what a deposition is? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. If we could today, I'd like to have a few 25 agreements with you regarding the structure and the MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 8 1 manner in which we conduct the deposition. One of 2 those is I'd like for you to agree to tell me if 3 for any reason you need to take a break so that you 4 won't be uncomfortable. Okay? 5 A. Okay, thank you. 6 Q. Also if there's any question that I ask in 7 such a manner or phrase in such a way that you 8 don't understand it, please tell me that you don't 9 understand so that I can have an opportunity to 10 rephrase the question. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. I don't know how long we'll be here today. 13 I've made some estimates beforehand. But if you 14 need to take a break, please feel free to do that. 15 Okay? 16 A. Thank you. 17 Q. What is your date of birth, sir? 18 A. September 14, 1930. 19 Q. That would make you -- 20 A. 66. 21 Q. -- 66 years old. What is your current 22 residence? 23 A. It's 120 Fox Fire Estates Drive, Waynesville, 24 North Carolina 28786. 25 Q. What is -- what is your occupation there? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 9 1 A. I'm retired, but I do a little part-time 2 teaching in a couple of little community colleges. 3 Q. Do you teach full time at the -- 4 A. No, no. 5 Q. -- colleges? 6 A. Just part time, one course in each. 7 Q. So you may teach a course for an entire 8 semester, but you don't have an entire course load; 9 is that what you're telling me? 10 A. That's right. One course, one course at a 11 time. Maybe it can be one course in each school 12 simultaneously. 13 Q. What topics are you teaching at the two 14 schools? 15 A. Chemistry -- as a general subject, chemistry. 16 But one is a college transfer chemistry, and the 17 other is more directed towards nursing students, 18 med techs, medical emergency people, this kind of 19 -- it's -- 20 Q. How long have you been teaching those classes 21 part time? 22 A. Since September of 1992. 23 Q. When did you retire? 24 A. I retired in -- well, actually I retired -- I 25 left Philip Morris on April 1, 1992. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 10 1 Q. Why did you decide to retire in 1992? 2 A. There were offering a package and I decided it 3 was good deal for me because I was going to retire 4 early. I mean, I would have retired earlier, but I 5 was going to retire early anyway. 6 Q. After retiring on April 1st, 1992, from Philip 7 Morris, have you done any other sort of 8 work--whether consulting work or full-time 9 work--other than the college classes that you're 10 teaching? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Who do you live with at the Fox Fire Estates 13 address? 14 A. With my wife. 15 Q. You and she live alone there? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How long did you work for Philip Morris? 18 A. Just a little over 13 years. 19 Q. Which particular entity did you work for? 20 A. I don't understand what you mean by "entity." 21 Q. As I understand it, there are various entities 22 that have different responsibilities and purposes 23 within the Philip Morris group of companies, one of 24 which is Philip Morris U.S.A. And I was wondering -- 25 A. It was Philip Morris U.S.A. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 11 1 Q. Did you ever work for any other Philip Morris 2 entity, like Philip Morris Europe? 3 A. No. 4 Q. So you began work at Philip Morris around 5 1979? 6 A. Exactly. September of 1979. 7 Q. Where had you been employed prior to that 8 date? 9 A. Liggett & Meyers Tobacco Company. 10 Q. How long had you worked for Liggett & Meyers? 11 A. Almost 22 years. 12 Q. And before that where were you employed? 13 A. I was in school. 14 Q. Where did you attend your post high school 15 college classes? 16 A. Hendricks College. 17 Q. Where is that located? 18 A. In Conway, Arkansas. 19 Q. Hendricks College? 20 A. Hendricks. 21 Q. What degree did you receive from Hendricks 22 College? 23 A. B.A. in chemistry. 24 Q. What year? 25 A. 1951. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 12 1 Q. What other colleges have you attended? 2 A. I attended briefly the University of Arkansas, 3 and then the University of Oklahoma where I got a 4 Master's degree. 5 Q. In chemistry? 6 A. In chemistry. 7 Q. What year did you receive your Master's 8 degree? 9 A. 1956. And then the Ph.D. in 1958 at the 10 university. 11 Q. From what -- 12 A. University of Oklahoma. 13 Q. And I assume your Ph.D. also was in chemistry? 14 A. Yes. All degrees was in chemistry, yes. 15 Q. Was there any specific field of chemistry that 16 you focused upon? 17 A. Yes, organic chemistry. 18 Q. Where were you born? 19 A. I was born in Piraeus, Greece. 20 Q. When did you move from Greece to the United 21 States on a permanent basis? 22 A. In -- well, I came here as a student. 23 Q. A high school or college student? 24 A. Well, I was in high school there. So I came 25 here midyear, January of 1948. And so when I MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 13 1 arrived here, I went to high school. And then that 2 fall I went to college. 3 Q. Where did you complete high school? 4 A. I did not really complete high school. It was 5 more coming to Hot Springs, Arkansas where -- my 6 father's brother was there and attending high 7 school there. And I had intended to attend one 8 more year just to learn the language because I 9 didn't know the language very well. I didn't know 10 it much at all really. 11 But the principal and the teachers felt that 12 I was just too advanced from my schooling in Greece 13 and I would be wasting my time. So they suggested 14 to my uncle that I enroll in a small college, which 15 Hendricks is, and I did that. 16 Q. Was your purpose from the very outset to study 17 chemistry? 18 A. My purpose, yeah, was to study some kind of 19 science. I didn't particularly -- chemistry -- I 20 just wanted to go to a university. That's what I 21 wanted to do. 22 Q. In the course of your studies at the various 23 universities, did you work for any tobacco 24 companies, or was it after your graduation and 25 completion of your Ph.D. that you went to work for MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 14 1 Liggett? 2 A. Yes. After, not before, just after I finished 3 my doctorate then. 4 Q. What what was the focus of your job 5 responsibilities and duties at Liggett? 6 A. I was initially hired as a senior chemist and 7 then was promoted to supervisor of the organic 8 chemistry division until the time I left. 9 Q. Why did you leave Liggett? 10 A. The company was downsizing. And basically 11 they were very kind in letting other tobacco 12 companies come to the research laboratory to 13 interview people. And I interviewed with three of 14 them, I believe, and I chose -- visited Philip 15 Morris and another tobacco company, and I chose 16 Philip Morris. 17 Q. When you worked for Liggett, what city did you 18 live in? 19 A. Durham, North Carolina. 20 Q. During the course of your work as a chemist at 21 Liggett, did you do any research or make any study 22 of ignition propensities of the cigarettes that 23 were manufactured by Liggett? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you do any ignition propensity studies? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 15 1 A. No. 2 Q. What was your primary job responsibility 3 there? 4 A. It was identification -- isolation 5 identification, characterization of materials in 6 tobacco and cigarette smoke, and development of 7 materials that we felt would be useful for, you 8 know, the manufacture of cigarettes. 9 Q. None of those studies related to issues of 10 reduced ignition propensity? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. When you were employed by Philip Morris in 13 September 1979, what department or group did you go 14 to to start work? 15 A. Flavor development. 16 Q. When you were interviewing and deciding which 17 company best suited your desires, did you have the 18 flavor group in mind as an area that you wanted to 19 work in? 20 A. Not particularly, not particularly. I had two 21 children in college at that time, anticipating a 22 third one to start the next year, and I needed the 23 highest paying job that I could possibly get. And, 24 of course, I -- you know, I wouldn't have worked 25 for something that I would be disinterested in. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 16 1 But it was -- while at Liggett, I had done a lot of 2 work in flavors. 3 Q. When you went to the flavor group, who was 4 your immediate supervisor or person that you 5 reported to? 6 A. Immediately, Frank Daylor. 7 Q. Were you a -- what was your designation? Was 8 it that of senior scientist or assistant? 9 A. No. Associate principal scientist. 10 Q. While in the flavor group, what sort of 11 projects did you work on? 12 A. Well, as an associate principal scientist, I 13 was supposed to collaborate with the flavorists and 14 other flavor chemists in the division and help them 15 with whatever problems or projects that they had. 16 And I sort of took a leadership position in -- in a 17 rather complex problem in developing a quality 18 assurance specifications for an in-house flavor 19 product. 20 Q. Prior to you working on that, was there no 21 such structured in-house flavor protocol? 22 A. Oh, yeah, there was. But see, this was 23 something that Philip Morris had developed. It was 24 a complex kind of a thing. I was there. They were 25 trying to determine how they might specify it MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 17 1 because they wanted to make it in-house, and they 2 wanted to make it, you know, reproducibly and have 3 some quality control standards. So they assigned 4 me to that. 5 Q. So that I can understand, Doctor, what you 6 were working on in that regard was -- or were 7 standard specifications for flavorings; is that 8 right? 9 A. For that one particular flavoring. 10 Q. What flavor was that? 11 A. I can't tell you that. 12 Q. Is that a subject of a confidentiality 13 agreement that you've signed or -- 14 A. Well, yeah. I mean, I signed a confidentiality 15 agreement with the company; but it was -- it's a 16 Philip Morris -- it's a non-patented type of a 17 thing. And they -- 18 Q. You feel like it may be a trade secret of some 19 sort? 20 A. Yes, yes. I mean, that's really -- that's -- 21 yes. I couldn't verbalize it quite that clearly. 22 Q. Let me ask you this--and I'll try to not step 23 on your confidentiality or the issues of 24 confidentiality that you have concern with--did the 25 flavoring project that you were referring to have MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 18 1 anything to do with flavorings of cigarettes that 2 may have reduced ignition propensity? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Or sidestream smoke issues? 5 A. Not at that time. 6 Q. Did it develop into the areas of sidestream 7 smoke or environmental smoke? 8 A. Oh, I haven't the slightest idea what they're 9 using it for. All I know, it was a flavor they 10 were making, and I developed specifications for 11 it. And that was the end of my involvement. 12 Q. Do you know why they needed that particular 13 flavor made? 14 A. They need a lot of things, and I don't know 15 why specifically that one; but apparently somebody 16 liked it. 17 Q. Okay. Without asking you specifically again 18 what it was, what you're saying, there was a very 19 specific flavor that you worked on the 20 specifications for? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. But as you sit here today looking back, you 23 don't know particularly why you were asked to 24 develop specifications for that particular flavor? 25 A. I only know the fact that it was a complex MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 19 1 flavor, and it presented a challenge. And they 2 felt that I would be able to deal with that. 3 Q. Do you know who assigned you the project of 4 working on that complex flavor? 5 A. Yeah. It was Mr. Daylor. 6 MR. CRAMPTON: Lynn, let me just -- I'm 7 not familiar with what this flavor is, and I don't 8 know what we're talking about. Maybe after we take 9 a break, I'll talk with him about it, and then 10 maybe you and I can talk about whether there's 11 something there. I just don't know what it is. 12 And I don't think we need to stop at this 13 point. It sounds like it's not related to ignition 14 propensity at all. So we can talk later, if 15 there's an issue. 16 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Is the -- was the project 17 one that was a commercial packaging; in other 18 words, was it something that was intended for 19 commercial sale? 20 A. I think so, but I don't know. Basically what 21 happens is, when you get to flavors, there are very 22 closely guarded types of information; and so you do 23 what you are asked to do and that's it. 24 Q. And you're not always told why you're supposed 25 to do something, right? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 20 1 A. Well, you're told to the extent that it's a 2 nice flavor, we like it, we have this problem and 3 would you do this. 4 Q. During the course of your work with the flavor 5 group -- I take it you were with no other groups in 6 Philip Morris, correct? 7 A. Well, no. The last three years I was. 8 Q. Oh, okay. During your course -- the course of 9 your work with the flavor group, were you ever 10 asked to research or look into flavorings of 11 prototypical cigarettes to improve how they tasted? 12 A. See, I was not a flavorist. This would be a 13 question addressed to the flavorists. And they 14 would come to me and say I know just this kind of a 15 bad taste, this kind of an off thing, so I need 16 something to bring it out, what can we use--this 17 kind of a thing. 18 Q. So you might be asked to fine-tune the flavor 19 or if -- 20 A. Not fine-tune, provide another level -- 21 another level of input. 22 Q. So your input might be just one of several 23 different persons within the flavor group? 24 A. Right. And more technical, more based on 25 science rather than art. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 21 1 Q. Can you give mean an example of a situation, 2 say, for instance, if someone came and said to you 3 we have a -- we have a cigarette prototype, but it 4 has a lot of bite to the taste, would they ask you 5 what technically might be done to soften that, for 6 instance? 7 A. They could. They could. Or some may have a 8 bitter taste. 9 Q. Can you give me an example of some other 10 circumstances where that might happen -- might have 11 happened? 12 A. There were, you know, no outstanding kind of 13 things. There were just small daily types of stuff 14 that -- it's hard to really remember a specific 15 case. 16 Q. Okay. While you were in the flavor group for, 17 I guess, ten years, from 1979 to '89, correct? 18 A. Yeah, about that. 19 Q. While you were there, was your job then to 20 assist others in the flavor group in altering and 21 modifying and improving flavors of cigarettes? 22 A. That was part of my job. I was supposed to 23 wear a lot of hats. And I was supposed to not just 24 help flavor development, but I -- as I attended 25 various meetings that were within the research MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 22 1 department, if I felt that someone could benefit 2 from my advice, information, suggestion, I would 3 proffer that. 4 And sometimes it would be just giving 5 somebody a thing, other times if it were a new 6 person, a young person particularly, out of school 7 and they were given a project, I would sort of 8 mentor them to the extent that they wanted my 9 assistance, and then, you know, they would fly on 10 their own. 11 Q. After you left the flavor group in 1989, what 12 did you move on to do? 13 A. I was assigned then to chemical research. 14 Q. Who was your immediate supervisor there? 15 A. Immediately then was Bob Ferguson. 16 Q. What was your title in the chemical research? 17 A. It was the same title, associate principal 18 scientist. 19 Q. Throughout your tenure in flavoring you were 20 also an associated principal scientist? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Why were you changed and moved over to 23 chemical research? 24 A. I had made a suggestion on a project, and the 25 company liked it. And they said, okay, do it. And MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 23 1 the facilities in flavor development were not 2 suitable for that kind of work so... 3 Q. Can you tell me the topic that it was on? 4 A. It was on SOL-GEL technology. 5 Q. On what? 6 A. SOL-GEL, S-O-L, dash, GEL, G-E-L, technology. 7 Q. Can you tell me what that is in general terms? 8 A. In general terms, it's making jellies out of 9 inorganic oxides. 10 Q. What use or application would it have to 11 cigarette manufacturing? 12 A. These materials are film. Like you can form 13 films with them or you can precipitate out 14 particles that you can use -- for example, in 15 cigarette paper they use calcium carbonate -- that 16 you could use it instead of calcium carbonate. And 17 it would have beneficial -- could potentially have 18 beneficial effects, and we wanted to explore that. 19 Q. So basically the SOL-GEL might have had 20 beneficial effects as a paper additive? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And that was an idea that you came up with? 23 A. Well, no. I attended a meeting where these 24 things were being discussed. And coming back from 25 the meeting, I wrote a report on the meeting. And MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 24 1 at the bottom there, I just sort of expressed my 2 opinion where we might be able to use it. Not that 3 I would want to do it, but the company might want 4 to use it. 5 Q. And then someone -- 6 A. And someone -- yes. 7 Q. -- read that report and offered you the 8 opportunity to go work on that project? 9 A. Yes. They called me in -- the director called 10 me in and said that one of the research fellows 11 there -- well, the research fellow there thought 12 that was a good idea and they would like to 13 initiate some research in that and would I be 14 willing to do it. 15 Now, in reading the Wall Street Journal 16 several years after I retired that say if you're up 17 in age and they offer you a new challenge, don't 18 accept it but -- 19 Q. Regardless of that -- 20 A. Because it was a lot of hard work. 21 Q. Yeah, I bet it was. But you accepted the 22 challenge? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And moved on over to the chemical research 25 area? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 25 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you have the same directorship in the 3 chemical research area that you had had in 4 flavoring? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Who was the director in flavoring? 7 A. I think it was Jim Charles. 8 Q. And then when you moved over to chemical 9 research, who was the -- 10 A. No, I'm sorry. Oh, you meant flavor 11 development at first? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. I thought you meant chemical. Chemical 14 research was Jim Charles. In flavor development it 15 was Leo Meyer in the beginning, and then I think 16 Jim Miracle came close to the end there, after 17 Mr. Meyer's death. 18 Q. Did you finish the SOL-GEL project? 19 A. No, I did not finish it. I think -- I mean, I 20 don't know what's happened to it, but I did not 21 finish it. 22 Q. But during the last three years at Philip 23 Morris U.S.A., that was your project? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. From 1989 to '92? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 26 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Were you solely responsible for working on 3 that project, or did you have other projects 4 ongoing at the same time? 5 A. Again, my function was to provide technical 6 leadership to the research personnel. And so, yes, 7 there were other projects that I would take some 8 time to do, but my focus remained on SOL-GEL. 9 Q. I'm a little bit remedial in chemistry, so 10 you're going to have to tell me again what does the 11 SOL-GEL stand for? 12 A. SOL stands -- is an abbreviation for 13 solution. GEL is, of course, the gel. And 14 basically what you do is you make a solution which 15 will gel given the right, you know, preparation, 16 conditions. 17 It's just like making Jello, but instead of 18 using an organic material, you use inorganic 19 materials. It basically falls in the field of 20 colloid chemistry. 21 Q. That was a little bit out of your area, wasn't 22 it? 23 A. Well, it was out of my experience, but I took 24 a course in colloid chemistry in graduate school. 25 And, of course, cigarette smoke is a colloid. Fog MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 27 1 smokes, shaving cream, those are all colloids. So 2 it wasn't, you know -- but this particular art was 3 relatively new, not the SOL-GEL part of it. I 4 mean, the name was coined in, you know, but making 5 gels was not new -- but this particular class of 6 compounds. 7 Q. Did any of the considerations for the SOL-GEL 8 use relate to ignition propensity reduction? 9 A. I suggested that as a possibility in my 10 memorandum that I wrote following that meeting. 11 Q. Do you remember what -- about when that 12 memorandum would have been written? 13 A. I guess 1989 or maybe a few months before that 14 or something, because it took -- when I came back 15 from the meeting and it took several months before 16 anybody said anything. I guess they mulled it over 17 and who knows how, what... 18 Q. Do you recall who you authored or who you 19 wrote that memorandum to? 20 A. No, I don't recall. But the memorandum 21 usually was addressed to the manager with a copy to 22 the director and a copy to, I don't know, maybe a 23 couple of other people that were in leadership 24 position in research. 25 Q. Who was your manager back then? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 28 1 A. Well, I was still in flavor development at the 2 time, so it was Frank Daylor. 3 Q. And Leo Meyer would have been the director 4 that it was copied to? 5 A. If he was still alive. I don't know when he 6 died. If he was still alive. 7 Q. Was sodium silicate ever used in the SOL-GEL 8 project? 9 A. Yeah. That would be an example of a kind of a 10 SOL-GEL, but it was a gel that's known, you know, 11 to the world, has been known to the world for 12 centuries. I used it in response to Mr. Cohn's 13 publicity. 14 Q. I've gotten off track a little bit. Let me 15 try to get -- 16 A. That's okay. 17 Q. -- back to my outline so we can move along. 18 When you were completing your Ph.D. at the 19 University of Oklahoma, what was your thesis 20 subject? 21 A. It was the synthesis of a specifically labeled 22 compound that's -- with using Carbon 14, which 23 emits -- you know, it's a radioactive carbon 24 specifically labeled. 25 And then I used that in other materials to MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 29 1 feed to rats at the University of Oklahoma School 2 of Medicine Research Foundation. And then we 3 followed the metabolic fate of that -- of the 4 parent material they wanted. It's a flavonoid, and 5 they've used it in cold remedies. And some people 6 suggested that it may have vitamin-like 7 priorities. And that was the focus of my 8 research. 9 And then I tried to identify various 10 locations in the animal where it might concentrate, 11 might become metabolized and what are the metabolic 12 products of it. 13 Q. So really your thesis was the writing of a 14 paper but also research and -- 15 A. No. The research was the focus. 16 Q. Oh, was it? 17 A. The research was the focus. 18 Q. And a paper followed the research? 19 A. The paper is the final obligation. It is for 20 the dissertation. 21 Q. While you were working for either Liggett or 22 Philip Morris, did you conduct any research 23 projects outside the United States? 24 A. Yes. I went to South Africa one time when I 25 was at Liggett & Meyers. And I went to Neuchatel, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 30 1 Switzerland while I was working for Philip Morris. 2 Q. What city in Switzerland? 3 A. Neuchatel. 4 Q. Why did you travel to South Africa during your 5 Liggett tenure? 6 MR. CRAMPTON: I want to pose an 7 objection here on relevance. I'm not going to 8 instruct the witness, but I do want you to know 9 that he has a confidentiality agreement with 10 Liggett, when he left there, not to reveal Philip 11 Morris certain things. And I don't know whether 12 this gets into it or not. I don't know the 13 relevance of it, so I'm going to just interpose an 14 objection. 15 MR. GRISHAM: I'll try to tread lightly 16 on those areas. 17 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) In a general sense, can you 18 give me an idea of why you went to South Africa 19 without revealing, perhaps, the specifics of what 20 you found there? 21 A. Mr. Rupert (phonetics), from South Africa, had 22 bought some -- was a major stockholder, bought some 23 part of Liggett some way. I don't even remember 24 how the connection was. And they felt that they 25 had developed something big and useful in South MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 31 1 Africa. And so I was sent there to learn the art 2 and then bring it back. 3 Q. Did that have anything to do with ignition 4 propensity studies? 5 A. No. 6 Q. About what year was that? 7 A. I'm going to guess, but I don't know. 8 Q. Okay. I don't want to ask you to guess. 9 A. No. 10 Q. That's okay. Now, you mentioned a Mr. Rupert. 11 Who was -- 12 A. I think was -- name was Rupert. He's one of 13 the -- Africa's big industrialists. 14 Q. I see, okay. And did you stay there for a 15 while to conduct the research or was it a visit? 16 A. No. It was just ten days. Just -- 17 Q. Now, what work have you done in Switzerland 18 while working for Philip Morris? 19 A. The work in Switzerland was related to SOL-GEL 20 a little, but with relative to sidestream smoke. 21 Q. When did you travel to Switzerland while 22 working for Philip Morris? 23 A. I don't know. In the '80s sometime, but -- 24 Q. If it related to SOL-GEL, it probably would 25 have been in the late '80s, wouldn't it? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 32 1 A. Well, it might have preceded SOL-GEL. It 2 might have preceded SOL-GEL. I mean, it relates to 3 it in terms that it was a cigarette paper that was 4 being evaluated in that respect. So my mind sort 5 of gets -- you know, I get -- these things just 6 sort of tend to fuse and you forget when. 7 Q. I understand. On how many occasions did you 8 travel to Switzerland for Philip Morris? 9 A. Two occasions. 10 Q. About how long did you stay on each occasion? 11 A. On the first occasion, I stayed two-and-a-half 12 weeks; and on the second unrelated--totally 13 unrelated to that--I went there one day to make a 14 presentation. 15 Well, I mean, I went to Switzerland. But to 16 Philip Morris labs was only one day. I went other 17 places to do other things, not related to this 18 subject at all. 19 Q. Why was -- I take it that back during that 20 time Philip Morris had research labs in 21 Switzerland? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection; when you said 24 Philip Morris, I'm not sure who you're talking 25 about at that point. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 33 1 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Philip Morris Europe, I 2 suppose, had research laboratories in Switzerland 3 back in the late '80s? 4 A. I think so. 5 Q. And on -- you mentioned that on two occasions 6 you visited those laboratories in your capacity as 7 a Philip Morris U.S.A. employee? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. One time was just sort of like a one-day visit 10 while you were attending to other things in 11 Switzerland? 12 A. I went specifically to make a presentation -- 13 I mean, to Philip -- to the lab there, the 14 presentation to them. And that same subject dealt 15 with other people that were suppliers rather than 16 that. 17 Q. Now, the two-and-a-half-week visit, what did 18 you do while you were there? 19 A. It was an odor problem, an odor study, with 20 sidestream smoke. 21 Q. And on the one-day visit, the presentation 22 visit, what was the subject of the presentation? 23 A. Packaging material. 24 Q. Like cigarette cartons? 25 A. Like anything, any packaging. Yeah, cigarette MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 34 1 packaging. The cigarette package, I guess, the 2 pack. 3 Q. Okay, fair enough. Just making sure you 4 weren't talking about wrappers or papers -- 5 A. No, no. 6 Q. -- or packing? 7 A. We're talking about package now. No. 8 Nothing, no cigarette paper wrapper. 9 MR. CRAMPTON: Hard pack or soft pack? 10 A. All of it. I mean, just in general. It was 11 just in general. 12 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Why was -- why were those 13 two particular areas of research ongoing in 14 Switzerland? 15 A. Oh, this -- well, there are certain areas of 16 research that are common to the industry. And I 17 had information that I felt -- well, not I, but I 18 mean, the company felt--the managers and directors 19 and whoever made decisions--that I would -- that 20 they should hear what I have to say. 21 Q. Do you know whether or not any research or 22 experimentation on the issues of ignition 23 propensity were undertaken taken Switzerland? 24 A. No. 25 Q. You don't know or the answer -- MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 35 1 A. I don't know. 2 MR. GRISHAM: Is this a good place for 3 a break? 4 MR. CRAMPTON: Sure. 5 MR. GRISHAM: We've been going about 45 6 minutes. 7 MR. CRAMPTON: That's fine. 8 (Brief recess.) 9 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Dr. Kallianos, during the 10 break you told me that -- perhaps the way I stated 11 the question or something there was a little 12 misunderstanding about the laboratory in 13 Switzerland that you visited on a couple of 14 occasions. That, as I understand it, is not a 15 Philip Morris Europe laboratory, correct? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. Whose laboratory was that? 18 A. It goes by the name F.T.R. 19 Q. What company owns that? 20 A. A Swiss company, but I don't know what it 21 stands for. 22 Q. Did that particular company, to your 23 understanding, do contract work for Philip Morris? 24 A. I don't know. 25 MR. CRAMPTON: I just want to say MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 36 1 F.T.R. is the Swiss manufacturer. 2 MR. GRISHAM: Oh, okay. It's a Philip 3 Morris entity? It's Philip Morris Switzerland? 4 MR. CRAMPTON: It's a subsidiary or, 5 perhaps, an indirect subsidiary of Philip Morris 6 Companies. 7 MR. GRISHAM: Thanks. 8 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Dr. Kallianos, none of your 9 work on SOL-GEL then was done in Switzerland? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Did you ever know of any work done on ignition 12 propensity studies at IMBIFO? 13 A. Who. 14 Q. IMBIFO in Cologne, Germany? 15 A. No, I don't know. 16 Q. IMBIFO, IMBIFO -- I can't pronounce the 17 German -- 18 A. IMBIFO. 19 Q. -- name. Have you ever heard of that 20 organization? 21 A. Vaguely. Vaguely, I recollect IMBIFO, but I 22 don't know what it is or what they do or anything. 23 Q. Do you know in what context you heard about 24 it? 25 A. I guess in casual meetings somebody may have MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 37 1 just mentioned that. But you know they just said 2 Cologne, Germany. I didn't know whether it was 3 Cologne or whatever. 4 Q. Do you know whether or not any ignition 5 propensity work was done in Germany for Philip 6 Morris? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Back when you were with the flavor group, you 9 talked about one of your projects was the 10 development of a standard, or hopefully the 11 development of some sort of standardized testing 12 for flavoring. Did I hear you right? 13 A. No. It was develop specifications for this 14 particular flavorant. 15 Q. Okay. It wasn't flavorings as a whole, it was 16 just this one flavor? 17 A. No, no. Just this one flavor, this one 18 in-house flavor. 19 Q. Did you, in fact, develop that specification? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you do any work in developing any 22 standardized testing for flavorings? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Have you ever worked on Project Tomorrow? 25 A. What is Project Tomorrow? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 38 1 Q. I probably shouldn't -- I shouldn't tell you 2 what it is if you don't know. I'm not being -- I'm 3 not being flippant. I'm just -- I probably -- if 4 you don't recall what it is -- 5 MR. CRAMPTON: It's okay if you want to 6 describe it in general terms and see if he worked 7 on it. The fact is, he didn't. 8 MR. GRISHAM: If he didn't, then I 9 don't need to waste your time or mine or his. 10 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Do you have any patents or 11 have you applied for any patents in the past? 12 A. Oh, yes, I have a lot of patents. 13 Q. Tell me what they are. 14 A. They are patents relating to the development 15 of flavors. I even have a patent for a 16 sustained-release aspirin. Patents for new filter 17 design, and a patent or two on SOL-GEL. 18 Q. During the course of your work at Philip 19 Morris on ignition propensities, did any of your 20 research or research that you were aware of occur 21 outside the United States? 22 A. Literature, you mean? You talking about 23 literature? 24 Q. Any research conducted by Philip Morris on or 25 behalf of Philip Morris? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 39 1 A. No, not to my knowledge. 2 Q. Are you familiar with the CORESTA group? 3 A. I'm familiar with that, yeah. Well, I know 4 CORESTA. There's an international body that's 5 CORESTA. 6 MR. CRAMPTON: You realize that the 7 CORESTA group, when you're talking about I.P., is a 8 subset--a task force--under CORESTA, the larger 9 body? 10 MR. GRISHAM: Right. 11 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) You're familiar with 12 CORESTA? 13 A. CORESTA, yeah. 14 Q. Were you ever a member of CORESTA? 15 A. No. But I attended a couple of CORESTA 16 meetings. 17 Q. About what years did you attend those 18 meetings? 19 A. One time it was when I was with Liggett, and 20 it was -- and one time when I was with Philip 21 Morris, because the meeting was held in Richmond. 22 Q. What is CORESTA? 23 A. I don't know what the acronym stands for, but 24 it has something relative about -- something about 25 corporative research, whatever, tobacco or some MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 40 1 such kind of a thing. 2 Q. Do you know if CORESTA performed any 3 collaborative research involving Philip Morris on 4 the issues of ignition propensity? 5 A. No. 6 Q. The answer is, you don't know? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. When you attended the CORESTA meeting while 9 employed by Philip Morris, did you make any sort of 10 presentation? 11 A. I don't think so. 12 Q. During your employment with Philip Morris, 13 were you a member of any task force or group within 14 CORESTA? 15 A. No. 16 Q. With respect to research that you were 17 involved in at Philip Morris on the issues of 18 ignition propensity, was any of that research or 19 the data or results therefrom shared with other 20 tobacco companies that you're aware of? 21 A. No. 22 Q. When -- first of all, have you ever heard of 23 Project Hamlet? 24 A. Yeah. I've heard of it, but I couldn't know 25 -- I can't remember what it is. I mean, they had MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 41 1 a whole alphabet soup of projects there. 2 Q. Do you remember what Project Hamlet dealt 3 with? 4 A. I don't know if they were ignition propensity 5 then -- 6 Q. I believe that they were ignition propensity. 7 Do you remember projects on ignition propensity? 8 A. Hamlet is the only -- the only word that comes 9 that comes close, familiar with that. 10 Q. When did you first become involved with 11 ignition propensity studies? 12 A. It was a couple of years after I started. 13 Q. Around 1981? 14 A. Maybe a little before that, but something like 15 that. 16 Q. How did you become aware that Philip Morris 17 was studying ignition propensity issues? 18 A. Mr. Meyer, who was the director -- I had just 19 completed the specifications for that flavor, and 20 he broached the subject with me and told me that 21 this -- I think it was in connection with some 22 research at the National Institute of Testing and 23 whatever it is -- the National Bureau of Standards 24 then, and he told me that he would like for me to 25 look into this matter. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 42 1 Q. Specifically what was your assigned task with 2 respect to looking into the matter of ignition 3 propensity? 4 A. It was to visit the National Bureau of 5 Standards and learn the tests that they were using 6 to test for ignition propensity and then evaluate 7 that method. 8 Q. You were a scientist in the flavor group. Why 9 were you asked to do that particular job? 10 A. Well, as I told you before, I was a scientist 11 in the flavor group because that was my anchor, but 12 I did, you know, a lot of -- I had a lot of 13 interaction with various projects that -- just 14 small little things that, you know, may have had 15 some short duration or maybe just very casual 16 contact. 17 And I guess I had been a very creative kind 18 of person. I had a lot of patents. I had been in 19 the industry for quite awhile. I understood -- I 20 was familiar with the cigarettes. And I didn't ask 21 them why did you choose me. All I know is that 22 that's what they said. I mean, I didn't see it as 23 a strange request. 24 Q. Did you travel to Washington and meet with 25 Dr. Krasny? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 43 1 A. Mr. Krasny? 2 Q. Mr. Krasny. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And when you came back, you issued a report? 5 A. I think so. Yeah, I think so. I should 6 have. If I didn't, I should have. 7 Q. I think you did. After that visit was 8 conducted and you issued the report, did you 9 believe that your responsibilities for ignition 10 propensity studies were done, or did you think 11 there was going to be an ongoing project that you 12 would be involved in? 13 A. Well, I was asked to evaluate -- to evaluate 14 that test, you know. And so then I tried to read 15 as much as I could, tried to reflect on it as much 16 as I could and then propose the program, how to 17 evaluate it and what the shortcomings of the tests 18 were, and they said okay. 19 Q. After you completed that evaluation and 20 reported back to Leo Meyer with your thoughts, what 21 was the next thing that you did with regard to 22 ignition propensities? 23 A. Was really develop a procedure that I felt was 24 more appropriate to testing what Mr. Krasny was 25 trying to test. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 44 1 Q. And if I remember correctly, Mr. Krasny had 2 developed a test that measured the weight loss of 3 the cigarette as it burned, as well as the fiber 4 pad that it was placed upon? 5 A. That was at a later time. 6 Q. Oh, was it? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What was the initial test methodology that you 9 evaluated back in the first couple of years of the 10 test? 11 A. The initial that I -- the initial test that I 12 saw Mr. Krasny -- what he was doing, he got a -- 13 some number of fabrics--I don't remember how many 14 there were--half a dozen or so fabrics, and he was 15 then testing cigarettes on those different 16 fabrics. 17 And upon reflection, I decided that really 18 he wasn't testing cigarettes, that he was testing 19 cigarettes and fabrics at the same time and it's 20 too many variables. And there were two variables 21 there, and you can't convolute them very easily. 22 Q. And so in your report back to Leo Meyer, you 23 were somewhat critical of Mr. Krasny's test 24 methodology? 25 A. Oh, I don't know that I -- that I was MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 45 1 critical. I don't know that I reflected upon -- 2 judgmentally like that. I mean, it evolved after 3 what I thought he -- what I observed. 4 Q. And then you set about the task of developing 5 test methodology yourself? 6 A. Well, I -- okay. Here's what they're doing 7 over there, how can it be done better? What were 8 the shortcomings of the test? 9 Well, I looked at exactly what they were 10 doing and tried to duplicate what they were doing. 11 And as I was doing this, I started developing 12 thoughts and started studying the variability of 13 the whole procedure. 14 And as I was learning, I kept reformulating 15 my thought, and eventually concluded that you need 16 very careful control of as many of the parameters 17 as possible. And you can use more fabric, but you 18 have to study one fabric at a time. And I thought 19 just studying one fabric could give you some idea 20 on what is a varietal problem. 21 But using now, basically, the mock-up system 22 that Mr. Krasny had because we were -- at that 23 time, the mental framework was that N.B.S. may 24 develop a test, so we wanted to have as much lead 25 time as possible. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 46 1 Q. The thought at the time was the N.B.S. might 2 come up with a test, and you wanted to have 3 evaluated the test methodology before their test 4 might be accepted as the governmentally adopted 5 test? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. At that point in your work, how much time was 8 being spent upon this test methodology study versus 9 pure flavor studies? 10 A. Oh, it took me just pretty much away from the 11 flavor the bulk of the time. I still had -- you 12 know, I still had some of that, but the bulk of my 13 effort then was -- there were letters to be read, 14 there were, you know, lots of things to be done. 15 Q. Ultimately, did you conclude that there was an 16 appropriate test methodology using a furniture 17 mock-up with certain controls, environmental 18 controls, that could test the ignition propensities 19 of various cigarettes? 20 A. I concluded that you could take the Krasny 21 test and by controlling it very carefully, you 22 could get some information, some data, that I 23 thought he was trying to get at. 24 Q. About when did you come to a conclusion with 25 respect to that area of your research? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 47 1 A. I couldn't tell you. I mean, as I was 2 working, I was learning every day practically. And 3 as we, you know, said this -- you know, this is too 4 great of a variability, what causes it, then how we 5 can deal with that. 6 Q. While you worked at Philip Morris, do you know 7 of Philip Morris testing any of its commercial -- 8 commercially sold cigarettes for ignition 9 propensity? 10 A. Philip Morris, I don't know about -- somebody 11 else testing it, you mean? 12 Q. About Philip Morris testing its own 13 cigarettes, commercial cigarettes, for ignition 14 propensity? 15 A. Yeah. I made some models from Philip Morris 16 brands of tobacco. 17 Q. Were those assigned prototype names or were 18 they assigned other -- 19 A. Prototype names. Because they were made at a 20 very carefully controlled conditions, because we 21 thought that, you know, commercial cigarettes, the 22 way they're made in the manufacturing setting just 23 -- it's just too much -- it's too much 24 variability, no control. 25 And then so if you're really going to study MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 48 1 something, you need to control, you know, the thing 2 so you can have then... 3 Q. So essentially what you did when you tested 4 these prototypical cigarettes was go replicate a 5 blend that was controlled, but it was a replica of 6 the commercial blend? 7 A. Exactly. 8 Q. In the course of your studies, did you ever 9 replicate the Marlboro blend to test for ignition 10 propensities? 11 A. I can't swear to it, but I would think so. 12 Q. And probably during that era, Marlboro was one 13 of the better sellers at Philip Morris, wasn't it? 14 A. Oh, yes. 15 Q. And so logically that might -- that would be 16 one that you would want to look at in the course of 17 your studies of various cigarettes? 18 A. Yes. I would think -- I would think if I made 19 Marlboros, I certainly would have made one that was 20 as close to the Marlboro as is humanly possible. 21 Q. About what time period was it that you were 22 making these prototypical models for ignition 23 propensity testing? 24 A. Well, it was -- it was throughout the duration 25 because we went from the development of this thing, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 49 1 evaluation of various products, various cigarettes, 2 evaluation of the number of parameters and they 3 went -- 4 See, at that time there was talk about 5 legislation -- I don't know what the term is, and 6 so we were just sort of anticipating what might 7 come down the pike. And so we were trying to find 8 out what the variables are so we could control 9 them. 10 Q. Do you recall the prototypical name or number 11 assigned to the Marlboro Light test subject? 12 A. I wouldn't have the slightest idea. We made 13 so many models across -- through my career in 14 research for over the 35 years or so. I could not 15 remember. They were all given some kind of a 16 prefix, a number or something, and they kept 17 recycling these things. And depending on the year 18 that you... 19 Q. Was there any particular code given to it? 20 A. Which? 21 Q. The Marlboro-type prototypical cigarette. 22 A. The semi-works just sort of went sequentially 23 down whatever it is, and they assigned the numbers. 24 Q. Who would assign the numbers? 25 A. Semi-works or whoever it was, the request. In MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 50 1 other words, when the request was made, there was 2 an assignment of the numbers. 3 Q. How was the test data from your prototype 4 testing stored? 5 A. How was it stored? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. I guess in some kind of a report. 8 Q. Do you know if it was mechanically stored or 9 electronically stored on computers? 10 A. I don't think it was electronically stored on 11 computers. Not by me certainly, because at that 12 time I didn't have the facility to do that. It was 13 pen and pencil. Pen and paper, I mean, sorry. 14 Q. As you went about the task of developing these 15 models and testing them throughout the course of 16 your career, did you make quarterly or annual 17 reports on ignition propensities? 18 A. I don't know about quarterly, but I certainly 19 made annual reports. 20 Q. And did it remain true that the bulk of your 21 work -- after this initial two-year period, the 22 bulk of your work was directed then towards 23 ignition propensities throughout your tenure at 24 Philip Morris? 25 A. No. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 51 1 Q. It wasn't that way? 2 A. No, no. Just for a short period of time 3 there. 4 Q. About what period would that have been? 5 A. I said about a couple of years or so, give or 6 take, when I started; and then I stayed with the 7 project for about maybe two, maybe three years, 8 that length of time. 9 Q. Then what did you move on to? 10 A. I moved on to room aroma, sidestream smoke 11 issue. 12 Q. Is there any connection between the issues of 13 sidestream smoke and ignition propensity? 14 A. Well, at that time I did not know that--you 15 know, if there might be a connection. But as I 16 work in these issues, I felt that there may be a 17 commonality either helping both of them or hurting 18 one while helping the other kind of a thing. I 19 didn't know exactly would they be, you know, 20 systemically going together or antithetical. 21 Q. But you begin to see, as your research 22 developed, that there was some correlation between 23 sidestream smoke volume and ignition propensity? 24 A. Well, not necessarily smoke volume, but the 25 odor of the sidestream, the odor of the sidestream. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 52 1 Q. Was mass burn rate a component of both 2 sidestream smoke studies and ignition propensity 3 studies? 4 A. You have to repeat again. 5 Q. Sure. Was the concept of mass burn rate 6 something that was important both to the ignition 7 propensity studies and sidestream smoke? 8 MR. CRAMPTON: I object to that as 9 being vague. I just want to explain why I'm making 10 the objection. It might be -- the mass burn rate 11 is related to a good many areas of research. And 12 that might be the reason there is a confusion 13 there. 14 MR. GRISHAM: Okay. 15 A. I did not measure mass burn rate. 16 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Was mass burn rate a 17 component of any of the research that you did? 18 A. Mass burn rate became a component when 19 Mr. Krasny published -- or not published -- 20 revealed his tests when he used the paper instead 21 of -- went away from the cloth. 22 Q. Went to the fiber pad, the cellulose pad? 23 A. Yeah, the cellulose pad, right. Basically, 24 then mass burn rate became important because, 25 again, we looked at that test. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 53 1 Q. After you were -- had completed the work that 2 you've described in making the prototypes and 3 testing them for the various reasons that you've 4 stated, then you went on to sidestream smoke 5 studies. Did you remain primarily focused on 6 sidestream smoke until you went to the SOL-GEL 7 project? 8 A. No. I worked on sidestream for some period of 9 time. And then I did some -- took pretty heavy 10 responsibility for the packaging study. And it was 11 -- this packaging study that -- you know, that was 12 related with the trip that I mentioned before. 13 Q. All right. Just so I can get an idea of what 14 all you worked on besides the ignition propensity, 15 the early flavoring test, the ignition propensity 16 sidestream smoke, packaging and, ultimately, 17 SOL-GEL, were there any other major projects that 18 you provided input for? 19 A. Yes. The development of the Cambridge 20 cigarette. The Cambridge now is more than one -- 21 they do the zero tar delivery. Was it? 22 MR. CRAMPTON: I'm not sure. I 23 remember there was a product called Cambridge. 24 A. Cambridge zero tar delivery or something like 25 that. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 54 1 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Any other projects? I mean, 2 I know you did a lot of work in the 13 years, but 3 I'm trying to focus on the -- 4 A. No, no major -- that I can recollect, no major 5 projects. But a lot of projects, a lot of little 6 things, you know, be a lot of little questions. 7 Q. Did you do any flavor work on prototypical 8 cigarettes that you or someone was hoping to 9 measure the consumer acceptability of in hopes of 10 developing a more ignition or less ignition prone 11 cigarette? 12 A. Yes. In part of my effort of doing that, this 13 was a coupling thought, if you please, with that to 14 see what is there that can be brought to bear, to 15 anticipate what the government or legislation, 16 whatever might come down the pike. 17 And there was ignition propensity, and there 18 was self-extinguishment. And these were two types 19 of things there. Or they may correlate, but 20 they're really independent -- independent issues. 21 Q. Right. On the issues of -- let me ask this, 22 because I've been phrasing things more in terms of 23 lessening ignition propensity, and you've pointed 24 out that self-extinguishment really isn't an 25 independent concept. Did you do any work on MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 55 1 self-extinguishment? 2 A. Yes, we tried to. 3 Q. Was it part and parcel of the work you were 4 doing on lessening the ignition propensity and 5 studying the concept of lessened ignition 6 propensity? 7 A. It was part and parcel of this project not 8 knowing what kind of requirements may be imposed on 9 the tobacco industry, and so you anticipate. 10 Q. In both the areas of lessened ignition 11 propensity and self-extinguishment then, were you 12 aware of flavor studies undertaken to see what 13 flavoring could be done to enhance the 14 acceptability of the prototypes that had less 15 ignition propensity or perhaps self-extinguished? 16 A. There were flavor studies evaluating the 17 products there, the prototypes, that were being 18 developed, yes. 19 Q. How were those conducted? 20 A. Standard -- standard procedures, I guess. 21 Q. What were those procedures, because I'm not 22 really familiar with them? 23 A. You submit a particular cigarette to a flavor 24 panel. Sometimes it didn't -- it didn't take more 25 than one smoker to tell you that. And usually I MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 56 1 smoked a lot of those and made judgments. 2 But you submitted it to the flavor panel, 3 and you waited to see what kind of an assessment 4 they would make. 5 Q. Typically, when you would have a prototype 6 that, for one reason or the other, you wanted to 7 have a flavor analysis done upon and, therefore, 8 you decided to submit it to the panel, did you have 9 a sheet for them to fill out with comments and make 10 judgment -- subjective judgmental -- 11 A. Yeah. No flavor analysis, but flavor 12 evaluation is really what we were talking about. 13 Analysis is something else now. But evaluation, 14 yeah. They had -- they had different kinds of 15 ballots that they used, depending on the kind of a 16 test. They had different types of tests, depending 17 on what they wanted to test for. 18 Q. Who is the person who primarily put together 19 the ballots and saw that the survey was conducted 20 appropriately and then tabulated the results? 21 A. It was some member of the flavor development 22 division. 23 Q. Do you recall any names? 24 A. Oh, I guess you can take the whole thing 25 because at some point or another just about MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 57 1 everybody -- I mean, I can't say that everybody 2 during my tenure there, but it rotated type of a 3 thing. Statisticians came into play there. 4 Q. When a cigarette prototype was submitted to 5 the flavor panel for a subjective testing, was the 6 flavor panel composed of persons who worked for 7 Philip Morris? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Was any subjective testing ever done, to your 10 knowledge, with participants from outside the 11 company? 12 A. On any cigarette or on the models? Are you 13 talking about any cigarette? 14 Q. I was referring to the models or any proposed 15 cigarette that might have reduced ignition 16 propensity or self-extinguishing characteristics. 17 A. I don't remember of any. I don't remember. 18 Q. Who was the department head or supervisor of 19 the department that dealt with conducting these 20 surveys or panel analysis -- not analysis, you 21 don't like that word. 22 A. No. Because analysis has, you know, a 23 chemical term where you're analyzing components 24 doing the instrumental analysis. 25 Q. Sure. Let me rephrase the question and not MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 58 1 use that word. Who was the person that was the 2 manager of or over the particular department that 3 oversaw the subjective flavor testing? 4 A. For external panels or -- 5 Q. Internal and external? 6 A. Well, internal, it was flavor development, the 7 manager of flavor development. 8 Q. Who was? 9 A. Well, Frank Daylor in the beginning and then 10 it became Mr. Spielberg. 11 Q. What about for outside panels? 12 A. That was a separate division, and I'm trying 13 to remember the name of that division. They went 14 through -- there were several managers. I can't 15 remember exactly who. 16 Q. During the course of the subjective testing of 17 the prototypical cigarettes that we've been talking 18 about that -- in the ignition propensity studies, 19 were there panels available for that sort of 20 testing, if it was deemed necessary, that were 21 outside of the company? 22 A. I think so. 23 Q. Do you know why no outside testing was done on 24 any of those prototypes? 25 A. None of them were really just acceptable for MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 59 1 this kind of a test. It's a different level of 2 testing, and you just follow a progression. 3 Q. And if they're not -- if a particular subject 4 is not acceptable to the internal panel, then 5 logically you don't take it to the outside group? 6 A. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's basically -- if 7 you don't like it, you wouldn't serve it to your 8 friends. 9 Q. Sure. In the course of your studies of 10 ignition propensities, did you evaluate patents or 11 design ideas from persons outside Philip Morris? 12 A. Design ideas, I don't know. No, I don't think 13 about design idea. But patents, any thought from 14 anywhere, yes. Internally, externally, I tried to 15 solicit every possible source. I was -- part of my 16 responsibility was to utilize all available 17 resources, wherever they might been. 18 Q. Can you, from your recollection, tell me about 19 the ideas or patented concepts that you evaluated 20 from persons outside the company? 21 A. Patents, are you talking about patents? 22 Q. Sure or ideas. 23 A. I read patent -- I read patents, yes, but I 24 can't recollect any specific one. 25 Q. I remember you telling me earlier in the MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 60 1 deposition that you recall Dr. Cohns -- is it Cohn 2 or Cohns? 3 A. Cohn, it's C-o-h-n or something like. 4 Q. -- Dr. Cohn's patent, I guess, dealing with 5 sodium silicate? 6 A. Yes, yes. 7 Q. How is it that that issue or the issue of that 8 patent came to your awareness? 9 A. Well, I mean, he made the national news. It 10 was just a tremendous -- I mean, it was a big, big 11 fanfare. It was a big fanfare. 12 Q. Did you conduct any studies or do any work 13 towards evaluating his patent for its applicability 14 to cigarettes that Philip Morris made? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What sort of work did you do? 17 A. I did, as best as I could, whatever was 18 disclosed, however it was disclosed. And he used 19 the term "intumescent," "intumescence." And indeed 20 you have this voluminous kind of like a -- it's 21 almost like a volcanic, you know, opening. I don't 22 know what you call it. Lava -- it's not like lava, 23 but just an ugly, ugly kind of a thing. 24 Q. So what was -- what was the final result of 25 your work on the Cohn patent and its applicability MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 61 1 to cigarettes? 2 A. Well, on the one hand, I'm bringing another 3 issue here, silicates would not be an acceptable 4 kind of a thing. 5 The other was it was just an ugly kind of a 6 situation. And I don't know really that we really 7 pursued it to ignition propensity. I don't 8 remember just -- I mean, I'm sure we did, but I 9 don't know what kind of results we got. But it was 10 just -- it was just something very ugly kind of a 11 thing that just -- 12 Q. It wasn't acceptable? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Was the -- the way the cigarette burned wasn't 15 aesthetically pleasing? 16 A. Oh, it was more than that. It was just ugly. 17 I mean, ugly. And there was flying kind of stuff 18 that could easily -- you could easily end up with 19 perforated trousers in a short period of time. 20 Q. And you mentioned a moment ago that the 21 silicate was not an appropriate substance. Was 22 that because of an issue of toxicity? 23 A. Silic -- you know, there's a term silicosis 24 that they used in mining or someplace and -- 25 Q. Well, was there a fear of toxicity, or was MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 62 1 that something that was born out by research or 2 study? 3 A. No, no. This is my own impression. I don't 4 know that any judgment was made we wouldn't, you 5 know, use sodium silicate or anything like that. 6 But just my own judgment was, gee, who in the world 7 would dare do this, seriously, without, you know, I 8 don't know what. 9 Q. What other patents do you recall 10 investigating? 11 A. Oh, I don't -- I don't remember. There 12 weren't really that many that would allow us, you 13 know, to -- it was more just from our own trial and 14 error kind of a thing using the things that were 15 generally known or maybe revealed in the patent. 16 But there was no -- nothing clad out there that 17 said, hey, if you follow this, you're going to get 18 at it. 19 Q. Throughout your 13-year career at Philip 20 Morris, did -- or were you aware of any prototype 21 being developed that indeed showed propensities of 22 being less prone to ignition on substrate? 23 A. What kind of -- 24 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection; you need to 25 define "substrate" when you use that word. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 63 1 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Okay. Well, tell me what -- 2 when I use the word "substrate," does it have a 3 particular meaning to you? 4 A. Just generically if you use the word 5 "substrate," it could be the mock-up test with the 6 foam in the thing, it could be a sheet of paper 7 thing, it could be the cellulose pad that he used. 8 It could be this table here if -- 9 Q. Okay. Well, in the course of your studies of 10 ignition propensities, what substrate did you 11 study? 12 A. The substrate that was studied was the mock-up 13 model that Krasny had evaluated. We -- mostly flat 14 surface. We did some where we had the crevice, 15 draping the cloth around that, allowing the 16 opening, these things. And, of course, his 17 cellulose pad, the cellulose pad that he did. We 18 put thermocouples underneath the very thin sheets 19 just to measure temperatures. 20 Q. With respect to any of the substrates you just 21 mentioned that were a part of your research, did 22 you become aware of any prototype developed at 23 Philip Morris that had a lower ignition propensity 24 on those substrates, any of those substrates? 25 A. Lower by we measure time to a smaller end MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 64 1 ignition? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you recall which prototypes those were? 5 A. By name? 6 Q. How best you can recall them or by year or by 7 attribute? 8 A. Attribute, we tested banded cigarettes; we 9 tested low porosity; cigarettes of varying 10 porosities; different burn additive, that kind of 11 stuff. And some of them, you know, would reflect a 12 change. 13 Q. Did any of the tested prototypes show a 14 tendency to self-extinguish? 15 A. Yeah. Some of the banded cigarettes would 16 self-extinguish. If you closed the porosity of the 17 paper a lot, then they would -- they would not 18 sustain combustion. 19 Q. Did any of the prototypes that showed a 20 lessened propensity to ignite or, in fact, 21 self-extinguish show promise in the flavor testing 22 that was conducted? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did any prototype come out of your SOL-GEL 25 studies that showed promise for reducing ignition MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 65 1 propensity? 2 A. No. 3 Q. If you were asked today to comment--which I'm 4 asking you to do--on the components of cigarette 5 design that you learned about at Philip Morris or 6 at Liggett in your experience as a chemist produce 7 the effect of lessening ignition propensity, could 8 you list those for me? 9 A. I would tell you that the cigarette paper is 10 the dominate controlling factor. 11 Q. Why so? 12 A. Because primarily of porosity. 13 Q. And does the paper consistency affect the mass 14 burn rate? Let me rephrase that. 15 What about the paper, what effect--physical 16 effect--does the paper have on the cigarette that 17 can make it less prone to ignition? 18 A. If you make a cigarette paper that has no 19 calcium carbonate, it would just not burn. 20 Basically it would have no porosity. 21 Q. And I guess the -- I suppose that the 22 drawbacks to that cigarette are maintaining static 23 burn? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. Perhaps discoloration? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 66 1 A. Yeah. Because you get condensation inside the 2 cigarette because things can't escape. 3 Q. And resistance to draw or difficulty puffing? 4 A. Yes. And, of course, a horrendous problem 5 with the flavor in the mouth. I mean, it's just 6 totally, totally unacceptable. 7 Q. Is there any way to analyze flavor? We used 8 that word -- or I used that word inappropriately 9 earlier, but is there any way to apply chemical 10 analysis to flavorings? 11 A. They are very, very complex. And, yes, you 12 can get an analysis, but what does it mean. In 13 other words, you cannot look at an analytical list 14 and say this is going to taste good and this is 15 going to taste bad. You cannot look at that. 16 Q. Can you look at an analytical list and by 17 virtue of some of the components of the list make a 18 pretty good judgment that a cigarette's going to 19 taste bad or good? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Can the analytical data be used for comparison 22 purposes? 23 A. What kind of a comparison? 24 Q. Well, comparison to other prototypes. In 25 other words, can you analyze one particular MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 67 1 cigarette blend or paper type and compare it to 2 another analysis that you've done of one, perhaps, 3 that has a good flavor? 4 A. I don't know that you have the ability to do 5 that. You can't do that. There's a myriad of much 6 compounds in there in varying proportions. 7 Q. What components does one view in a chemical 8 analysis of a cigarette? 9 A. Usually you get the total particulate matter, 10 the amount of water, you get nicotine, carbon 11 monoxide, oxyhydrogen NO. 12 Q. Tar? 13 A. Well, when I said T.P.M., that's -- T.P.M. is 14 total particulate matter. And then you have the 15 water, and you subtract the water from that and 16 whatever else, I don't know, you want to subtract. 17 Of course, carbon monoxide and NO are gases, 18 so you have to analyze for the gases separately. 19 Q. And what -- are you telling me that from those 20 analytical results you really can't make a flavor 21 judgment about a cigarette? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. What sort of equipment do you use to make an 24 analysis like that, spectrometer? 25 A. No. Depending on what you're going to MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 68 1 analyze. Basically T.P.M. is gravimetric by weight 2 or you use a Carl Fisher reagent. In nicotine you 3 use specific reagents for the nicotine. And then 4 the gases, of course, you measure them 5 independently. I don't know exact procedure that 6 they use, but I think probably gas chromatography. 7 Q. I'm going to shift gears and sort of go back 8 to where we were. A moment ago we were talking 9 about components of cigarette design that can 10 reduce ignition propensity. And it was your 11 opinion that the paper was the overwhelming factor 12 in design to producing a less ignition prone 13 cigarette? 14 A. In my experience, yes. 15 Q. In your experience. What modifications to 16 commercially produced cigarettes in the 1980s and 17 early '90s were made to the paper of the prototypes 18 to alter ignition propensity? You mentioned 19 calcium carbonate, I think? 20 A. No. I mean, these are part of our studies, 21 you know. And all I'm saying is that if you remove 22 calcium carbonate, this -- we know this from 23 experiments and from the paper people. If you 24 remove calcium carbonate, you have no porosity and 25 that's it. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 69 1 Q. Was there any other means of altering porosity 2 through paper? 3 A. Well, you can perforate it, you know, 4 electrostatically or mechanically, I guess. 5 Q. And what effect did that have? 6 A. Well, that tends to, you know, give you some 7 porosity, but the relative amount is just so 8 small. 9 I mean, if you use this surface area here, 10 as an example, for example, and say this is the 11 amount of porosity that a paper has, and then you 12 take a nonporous paper--totally nonporous 13 paper--and you perforate it and still have 14 something that can hold tobacco, you may have 15 surface area of maybe this cup, this much or this 16 much, or maybe -- I don't know, maybe what this 17 computer -- just a small fraction of it. 18 Q. So that wasn't an acceptable means of 19 improving flavor? 20 A. It's a way of doing something if you want to 21 do something small, some tweak, but not a way of 22 really doing anything that would be substantive. 23 Q. What about additives to the paper? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Were those means of reducing the ignition MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 70 1 propensity? 2 A. Yes. There are -- there are certain salts 3 that you can add to the paper that would keep it 4 from burning. 5 Q. What are those salts? 6 A. What did we evaluate? I had a list of things, 7 but I can't remember exact salts. But you have to 8 add heavy loading. You can't add just a little 9 bit. You have to add a heavy loading of it. 10 Phosphates, for example, are one general example. 11 Q. Citrate? 12 A. Well, no. Citrate, it would be added at a 13 very small, small level. I mean, to control -- I 14 don't think -- I think it's used as an additive to 15 make the paper burn uniformly. Because if you 16 don't have something like that, the paper, you 17 know, just sort of makes an ugly ash, you know, 18 instead of just having look... 19 And you may feel that the ugly ash is just 20 appearance, but if it's not properly formed, it can 21 fall off and burn you or do whatever. 22 Q. Then, in your experience and from your 23 recollection, there was never any work done on the 24 paper of the cigarettes in the '80s or early '90s 25 that produced an acceptable prototype? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 71 1 A. Oh, you're out of my period of time, that's 2 right. 3 Q. Now, in the '80s and early '90s, weren't you 4 -- you were involved in that project, right? 5 A. Not ignition propensity, no. 6 Q. Just so that I'm clear, what period of time 7 were you involved in ignition propensity? 8 A. I said somewhere '80, '81--somewhere in that 9 frame--for about two or three years or something 10 like that, and then maintained a casual interest 11 after that. But it never left my mind; and if I 12 had any thought or anything like that, I would jot 13 it down. 14 Q. And during the SOL-GEL period, that was -- 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- primarily ignition propensity again, wasn't 17 it? 18 A. I saw it as a possibility for ignition 19 propensity and/or sidestream smoke control. 20 Q. What effect, if any, did your research show 21 that the width of tobacco cut had on ignition 22 propensity? 23 A. Cut width? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. It was a small, just a small effect. We're MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 72 1 measuring time, and I would say seconds. 2 Q. Was there any other method that you used or 3 were familiar with to measure ignition propensity 4 other than the time factor? 5 A. The time factor. 6 Q. And were you familiar with an ignition 7 propensity index that sometimes was used by 8 scientists at Philip Morris to determine or to 9 quantify ignition propensity? 10 A. To me, ignition propensity index means the 11 time to ignition. That's what it means. 12 Q. What was the particular goal or mission, that 13 you were aware of, at Philip Morris with respect to 14 producing ignition propensity -- lessened ignition 15 propensity cigarettes? 16 A. Is to develop models that would meet any 17 number of criteria that would anticipate any 18 government regulation; or if we developed a model 19 that would really do something, then maybe do 20 studies -- more realistic kind of studies. 21 In other words, move away from this mock-up 22 that's really not realistic. And I don't know, 23 it's just check and see what happens out in the 24 real world. 25 Q. Do you know of anything that motivated Philip MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 73 1 Morris U.S.A. to conduct these ignition propensity 2 studies other than the potential for governmental 3 regulation? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. A little bit more specifically, did -- excuse 6 me. 7 MR. GRISHAM: Y'all want to take a 8 break to order lunch or whatever. 9 (Brief recess.) 10 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) We talked earlier, Doctor, 11 about the goals of the ignition propensity studies 12 in general terms. Do you recall if there was a 13 specific goal in terms of the prototypes that were 14 being tested to get them to meet--like, to not 15 ignite the mock-up until after three or four 16 minutes or something of that nature? 17 A. I don't know if there was a specific goal, but 18 intuitively, one would say that if it took a long 19 time, that it could be a potential candidate. 20 Q. And the longer the better, correct? 21 A. Well, it depends on how you attain that. 22 Because if cigarettes self-extinguish, then you 23 have infinity. I mean, if they just can't sustain 24 combustion at all, then you just have infinity. So 25 that's pretty long. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 74 1 Q. It is. As I recall the index, essentially it 2 was from zero to 10 minutes? 3 A. Just arbitrarily cut off at 10. 4 Q. And typically would -- during that time 5 period, would a cigarette burn the full length of 6 its tobacco rod in about 10 minutes? 7 A. No, no. 8 Q. About how long did it take on an 84-millimeter 9 cigarette? 10 A. On the mock-up? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. It would take more than 30 minutes sometimes. 13 Q. Was there a time at which, on the continuum, 14 that intuitively you felt like a cigarette would be 15 a candidate or would not, based upon the length of 16 time that it took to reach ignition? 17 A. I don't quite understand. 18 Q. I'll try to rephrase it better. Was there a 19 -- some specific time on the temporal continuum 20 that was judged to be good versus poor in terms of 21 ignition propensity? 22 A. I don't know about good or poor, but if it 23 were within the 2 or so -- 3 minute time frame, 24 you'd say that's just like any other cigarette. If 25 it were longer, then you would say that it could MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 75 1 have possibilities. 2 Q. When you were conducting the tests on the 3 prototypes, were those conducted on the Krasny type 4 furniture mock-up? 5 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection. I'm 6 objecting to the reference to Krasny type because I 7 don't think that's clear. 8 MR. GRISHAM: Okay. Let me rephrase it 9 so that I'm not being unfair. 10 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) In the research that you 11 conducted on the prototypes, were those conducted 12 on a furniture mock-up much like the one that the 13 National Bureau of Standards was testing? 14 A. Yes. The only thing we had selected one 15 cloth. 16 Q. And were they conducted under a hood? 17 A. It was conducted under very carefully 18 controlled conditions, very carefully. 19 Q. Things like draft was controlled? 20 A. That was the most obvious things that we 21 observed with Krasny's initial testing. 22 Q. One thing that affects a cigarette's ignition 23 propensity is oxygen availability? 24 A. Well, that's -- yes. No oxygen, no 25 combustion. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 76 1 Q. Sure. And did the control parameters of the 2 tests performed on the prototype deal in any 3 fashion with the humidity? 4 A. Our laboratories are controlled where we do -- 5 cigarettes are conditioned to -- under specific 6 humidity conditions and the labs are under 7 controlled humidity conditions. 8 Q. What about things like barometric pressures or 9 anything? 10 A. We have no control over barometric pressure. 11 Q. Were there any other test parameters or 12 components of the test procedure besides those that 13 you can recall offhand? 14 A. Getting a well lit cigarette. 15 Q. How was the ignition -- initial ignition of 16 the cigarette accomplished in the tests? 17 A. Using a lighter, electric lighter, and then 18 allow it to reach a static -- a good static hold. 19 I can't remember the time lapse there, but there 20 was a time lapse. But we establish a 21 well-established cone and then move from there. 22 Q. And, generally, was the cigarette then placed 23 on the mock-up? 24 A. There were four cigarettes at a time. 25 Q. Four at a time. And how was a determination MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 77 1 made that ignition of the mock-up had occurred? 2 A. You were looking at it, you know, and you 3 could see. Whenever you saw that there was 4 ignition, you would pull that cigarette off. 5 Q. What brought about the concept of performing 6 crevice testing? 7 A. Krasny. Krasny was -- it was Krasny's 8 basically. I can't remember the exact situation, 9 but one was a flat surface and, of course, some was 10 visible. But, you know, if people can see things, 11 you know, they are not going to leave them open no 12 more. Sometimes you get fires with things, you 13 know, sleeping on a couch or something like that. 14 So the crevice then was, you know, this -- he clued 15 us to this kind of a thing. Not that we were 16 oblivious to it, but -- okay. 17 Q. If the goal was, as you've suggested, that you 18 were to try to develop tests protocols and 19 standards that might give some advance warning of 20 any proposed National Bureau of Standard testing, 21 then obviously you were following what he was 22 doing, correct? 23 A. Well, yeah. But we weren't -- we weren't 24 bugging him or anything like that. 25 Q. I understand. But you were trying to MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 78 1 replicate things that he was working towards also 2 in terms of standardized test methodology? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Before your crevice testing, had Philip Morris 5 conducted any other ignition propensity crevice 6 testing that you're aware of? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. How was the crevice mock-up constructed? 9 A. Basically we took the flat and we made a 10 plywood -- this kind of a thing, where it looked 11 like a "T," you know. We would put foam there, 12 drape the cloth, continue it over the thing, and 13 then, you know, we tried to scoot the whole -- the 14 foam rubber and everything to bring -- to have a 15 crevice there; and then we, you know, contoured the 16 cloth so that we could place a cigarette in that 17 sleeve, if you please. And then sometimes would 18 drape it a little more, sometimes a little less, 19 just tried to alter the air, you know, availability 20 to the cigarette. 21 Q. Is the primary component of the crevice that 22 affects the ignition propensity the oxygen control? 23 A. I don't know. I mean -- 24 Q. In conducting the prototype tests that we 25 talked about earlier, when you replicated tobacco MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 79 1 blends from commercial cigarettes for the control 2 and placed them on the flat mock-up, what was the 3 typical time to ignition--the range of time to 4 ignition--on the commercial prototypical 5 cigarettes? 6 A. I can't remember. But I think we had 7 something like 1-1/2 or something like a 1.2, 1.3 8 minutes range to about 2, 2-1/2 or some such thing 9 as that. And basically we were in that time frame, 10 in that population. 11 Q. How was that different in the crevice testing 12 if, in fact, crevice testing of those type 13 cigarettes were conducted? 14 A. The crevice testing was done differently, you 15 know, because we -- you know, we draped the thing 16 and we did not -- you know, we did not look at 17 that. We did it just to see what might happen, you 18 know. And the thing that surprised us was that it 19 was different, you know -- that it was different. 20 Q. How was it different? 21 A. To the best of my recollection, you couldn't 22 see any smoke coming out of the cigarette. 23 Q. What were the ranges of ignition times in the 24 crevice testing? 25 A. Oh, I don't know that we actually even did a MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 80 1 systematic study on that. I don't know that we did 2 a systematic study. 3 Q. When the crevice testing was conducted, what 4 was the stated purpose? 5 A. I don't know. I mean, perhaps it was does the 6 flat surface mock-up -- does that reflect or come 7 close to reflecting a real world situation, you 8 know, and the judgment, you know, to be made there. 9 Q. In your experience and education and 10 background, are you aware of people making 11 allegations that cigarettes can smolder for 45 12 minutes to an hour or hour-and-a-half before a fire 13 is noticed? 14 A. On the cloth or -- well, Krasny showed this. 15 He had a film where he showed a chair, I think it 16 was--a stuffed chair--where he mentioned a very 17 long period of time. I can't remember if it was 45 18 minutes, an hour or some such thing. 19 Q. In your experience as a researcher, have you 20 witnessed that phenomenon? 21 A. No. Other than just seeing him film. 22 Q. Just so that I'm clear on the terminology, 23 when you're talking to me and the ladies and 24 gentlemen of the jury here today about time to 25 ignition on the furniture mock-up, you're not MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 81 1 referring to a flaming conflagration, obviously? 2 A. Absolutely not. 3 Q. What you're referring to, as I understand it, 4 is the point where the substrate being tested 5 ignites? 6 A. You see a smolder. You see a smolder. That's 7 right, you see a smolder. 8 Q. And you're not today telling us how long it 9 might take for such a smolder to reach a 10 full-fledged conflagration or if, in fact, it 11 would? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. And you haven't made any studies of that 14 phenomenon, have you? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. And you don't know on any particular or given 17 substance how long it would take a smolder to reach 18 a flame? 19 A. No. I mean, that's correct, I don't know. 20 Q. Have you studied any literature or data from 21 real world fire experience to enlighten you as to 22 what the others in the industry, what their ideas 23 are on times to ignition and times to conflagration 24 from cigarettes? 25 A. To the best of my -- to the best of my MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 82 1 ability, I don't -- I guess it's almost like a 2 situation by situation kind of a thing. There's 3 just no -- I've not seen any standardized studies 4 with a specific kind of a thing; but just case by 5 case, kind of almost antidotal rather than 6 scientifically derived. 7 Q. Were you, in the course of your work at Philip 8 Morris, ever exposed to any individuals at Philip 9 Morris who studied fire statistics, fire loss 10 statistics, things of that nature? 11 A. Was I exposed to individuals? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. No. I looked at some of that. 14 Q. Were you aware of any others, besides 15 yourself, who looked at those sort of things? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. In what context did you make a study or look 18 at fire losses and fire loss statistics? 19 A. It was just part of my job to know as much as 20 I possibly could about what I was studying. And if 21 that had any clues that I would be able to use, 22 then -- to whatever extent, then... 23 Q. Where did you go to get the info