1 1 CAUSE NO. 26294 2 SHANNA SHIPMAN A/N/F OF ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF 3 SHANNON MOORE, A MINOR, ) Plaintiffs, ) 4 ) VS. ) JOHNSON COUNTY, TEXAS 5 ) PHILIP MORRIS COMPANIES,) 6 INC., PHILIP MORRIS ) INCORPORATED, PHILIP ) 7 MORRIS U.S.A., AND ) SHELLY MOORE, ) 8 Defendants ) 18TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 9 10 11 12 13 14 ORAL DEPOSITION 15 OF 16 RANDALL GREENE 17 18 19 20 21 22 TAKEN AUGUST 29, 1996 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 2 1 I N D E X 2 PAGE 3 EXHIBIT INDEX - - - - - - - - - - - - 3 4 APPEARANCES - - - - - - - - - - - - - 4 5 INFORMATIONAL PARAGRAPH - - - - - - - 5 6 ERRATA PAGE - - - - - - - - - - - - - 6 7 8 THE WITNESS: RANDALL GREENE 9 Examination By Mr. Grisham - - 7 Examination By Mr. Markey - - 119 10 11 12 DEPOSITION CONCLUDED - - - - - - - - 120 13 WITNESS SIGNATURE PAGE - - - - - - - 121 14 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE PAGE - - - - - 122 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 3 1 E X H I B I T I N D E X 2 PAGE 3 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION MARKED 4 1 Notice of Deposition 7 5 2 Memorandum 19 6 3 Quarterly Status Report 67 dated April 7, 1981 7 4 Memorandum 70 8 5 Memorandum dated 77 9 July 23, 1981 10 6 Special Report dated 88 April 19, 1982 11 7 Quarterly Status Report 94 12 8 Quarterly Status Report 97 13 9 Memorandum 98 14 10 Memorandum 104 15 Goodman 2 Presentation by Andrew 65 16 Kallianos 17 Goodman 3 Status Report dated 100 October 1984 18 Goodman 5 Memo by R.K. Greene 101 19 regarding expanded weight series 20 Goodman 6 Memorandum 60 21 Whidby 8 Philip Morris U.S.A. 103 22 Five-Year Plan 23 Whidby 9 Strategic Plan from 108 Philip Morris U.S.A. 24 Research & Development 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 4 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 For The Plaintiffs: 3 Waltman & Grisham 4 3833 S. Texas Avenue, Suite 150 Bryan, Texas 77802 5 By: LYNN GRISHAM 6 For The Defendants, Philip Morris 7 Companies, Inc., et al: 8 Carrington, Coleman, Sloman & Blumenthal 200 Crescent Court, Suite 1500 9 Dallas, Texas 75201 10 By: MIKE BRADEN 11 For The Defendants, Philip Morris U.S.A., et al: 12 Shook, Hardy & Bacon 13 1200 Main Street Kansas City, Missouri 64105 14 By: WILLIAM CRAMPTON 15 Also By: JOHN FRASER 16 For The Defendant, Shelly Moore: 17 St. Clair & Markey Summit Office Building 18 1200 Summit Avenue, Suite 620 Fort Worth, Texas 76102 19 By: EDWARD MARKEY 20 21 RANDALL GREENE, The Witness 22 TAMARA J. BRAUN, 23 Certified Shorthand Reporter 24 ALSO PRESENT: Tim Bishop, Videographer 25 Steve Discher MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 5 1 ANSWERS AND DEPOSITION OF RANDALL GREENE, a 2 witness called by the Plaintiffs, taken before 3 Tamara J. Braun, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in 4 the State of Texas, on the 29th day of August, 5 1996, between the hours of 9:30 a.m. and 1:50 p.m.; 6 in the offices of Hunton & Williams, East Tower, 7 951 East Byrd Street, Richmond, Virginia, pursuant 8 to the notice of counsel for the respective parties 9 as hereinafter set forth. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 6 1 CHANGES MADE TO DEPOSITION 2 Rule 205, "No erasures or obliterations of 3 any kind are to be made to the original testimony as transcribed by the deposition officer. Any 4 changes in form or substance which the witness desires to make shall be furnished to the 5 deposition officer by the witness, together with a statement of the reasons given by the witness for 6 making such changes." Please enter the page number, line number, 7 and the reason for such change or correction. 8 Page/Line Correction Reason for Correction 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RANDALL GREENE MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 7 1 (Greene Exhibit No. 1 was 2 marked for identification.) 3 MR. CRAMPTON: Before you start, Lynn, 4 I just want to acknowledge on the record that this 5 deposition is confidential according to the 6 protective order that's been entered in this case. 7 The transcript and the videotape of the deposition 8 should be maintained confidential according to that 9 order, at least until 30 days after the written 10 transcript is available at which time Philip Morris 11 will designate which portions are confidential and 12 which portions aren't. 13 MR. GRISHAM: Correct. 14 EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. GRISHAM: 16 Q. Would you state your full name for the record, 17 please, Mr. Greene? 18 A. Randall Kent Greene. 19 Q. Where do you reside, Mr. Greene? 20 A. In Richmond. 21 Q. How long have you lived in Richmond? 22 A. Since 1969. 23 Q. How are you employed? 24 A. Employed at Philip Morris Research Center. 25 Q. Is Philip Morris Research Center a part of MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 8 1 Philip Morris U.S.A.? 2 A. Yes, it is. 3 Q. What is the address of the Research Center? 4 A. 4201 Commerce Road, Richmond, Virginia 23261. 5 Q. When were you first employed by Philip Morris 6 U.S.A.? 7 A. June of 1975. 8 Q. Predating your employment with Philip Morris 9 U.S.A., could you go through your past employers 10 and describe for me your background--your 11 employment background--leading up to your 12 employment with Philip Morris U.S.A. 13 A. How far back do you want to go? 14 Q. Beginning with your first job. 15 A. My first job was cutting grass at the age of 9 16 years old. I was self-employed at the time. 17 Q. Self-employed. Continuing forward from the 18 time that you ceased doing summer jobs or high 19 school jobs, can you give me your employment 20 background? 21 A. My largest real big job was with Galeski Photo 22 (phonetics). 23 Q. With what? 24 A. Galeski Photo. It was a photo-processing lab. 25 Q. What was your job there? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 9 1 A. Developing film, machine operator, and later 2 chemical mix. 3 Q. How long did you stay with that employer? 4 A. About four years. 5 Q. Have you ever been in any branch of the Armed 6 Services? 7 A. No, I have not. 8 Q. Following your employment with Galeski Photo, 9 how were you employed? 10 A. Went to Philip Morris. 11 Q. Describe for me your educational background 12 following high school and leading up to and through 13 today. 14 A. I have a Bachelor's in chemistry from Virginia 15 Union University in 1975. 16 MR. MARKEY: I'm sorry, sir. I can't 17 hear you. 18 THE WITNESS: Bachelor's of chemistry 19 degree from Virginia Union University in 1975. 20 MR. MARKEY: Thank you. 21 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Was there any particular 22 discipline within the field of chemistry that you 23 focused your attention or studies? 24 A. No, not particularly. I did participate on a 25 research project. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 10 1 Q. What research project was that? 2 A. The effect of biphenyls on -- polychlorinated 3 biphenyls on rat tissue. 4 Q. Was the emphasis throughout your education on 5 physical chemistry? 6 A. No, not particularly. 7 Q. When you were employed with Philip Morris 8 U.S.A. in 1975, what department were you employed 9 in? 10 A. New products in the section, paper 11 modification. 12 Q. Who was your immediate supervisor at that job? 13 A. Willard Geiszler. 14 Q. And what was his position? 15 A. Project leader. 16 Q. Was the new products paper modification 17 project that you were hired to work on included 18 within the auspices of Research & Development? 19 A. Yes, it was. 20 Q. At that time, who was the director of Research 21 & Development at Philip Morris U.S.A.? 22 A. I honestly couldn't tell you. I don't 23 remember. 24 Q. Was there a gentleman by the name of Gannon 25 that worked with you during that time period? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 11 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What was his full name, if you recall? 3 A. Walt Gannon is all I remember at the moment. 4 Q. What position did he hold during the 1975 time 5 period? 6 A. I believe he was director of new products or 7 product development. 8 Q. How long were you employed in the new products 9 paper modification area at Philip Morris U.S.A. 10 following your starting that position in 1975? 11 A. Until roughly 1986. 12 Q. Did your job title or position within new 13 products change during the course of that 11-year 14 period? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Outline for us, if you will, how it changed. 17 A. I came in at assistant professional. Oh, 18 somewhere around '77, '78, I was promoted to 19 associate professional. And in 1981 or '82, I was 20 promoted to research scientist. 21 Q. In 1986 how did your position within the 22 company change? 23 A. I joined computer applications. 24 Q. Why was that change made in your career path? 25 A. I don't know exactly. There were a lot of MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 12 1 changes in our department and I particular -- in 2 particular, liked programming. And I had done 3 quite a bit of programming through the Research 4 Center for quite a few years. 5 Those programs touched most everybody, and I 6 think they decided that I would be better served 7 with management that could understand what I was 8 doing. 9 Q. Have you remained in computer application 10 since 1986 through today? 11 A. Yes, I have. 12 Q. What is your title in computer applications 13 today? 14 A. My title is Research Scientist. I am project 15 leader of Desktop Services. 16 Q. As the project leader of Desktop Services, do 17 you manage others in the methodology of storing 18 research data at Philip Morris U.S.A.? 19 A. To some extent. 20 Q. Describe for me, if you will, your day-to-day 21 responsibilities in the position of project leader 22 of Desktop Services. 23 A. I have nine professionals reporting to me and 24 I spend most of the day keeping up with them and 25 answering phone calls and E-mails and various MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 13 1 requests from people for computer equipment and 2 laboratory programming services. 3 Q. Does the umbrella of your responsibility cover 4 areas within the company other than research? 5 A. I'm sorry, other than research and 6 development? 7 Q. Correct. 8 A. There are times we have contact with other 9 departments, but Research & Development is our 10 shop. 11 Q. Who is the director of Research & Development 12 today? 13 A. We're in transition from Ken Houghton to Kathy 14 Ellis. I'm not sure who's exactly wearing the hat 15 right now. 16 Q. Is Mr. Houghton still with the company? 17 A. I don't honestly know what his exact status 18 is. 19 Q. In the course of your work at Philip Morris 20 U.S.A., and particularly on the computer 21 applications aspect of that work, have you 22 developed any software or storage methodology to 23 store or collect or arrange test data related to 24 ignition propensity studies? 25 A. No, I have not. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 14 1 Q. Do you know Ms. Barbro Goodman? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. How do you know Barbro Goodman? 4 A. We've worked together since I came to Research 5 Center. 6 Q. Have you had an opportunity in the past to 7 work on Project Hamlet? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q. When did you first begin your work with 10 Project Hamlet? 11 A. I believe that was December of 1979. 12 Q. How is it that you came to work on that 13 project? 14 A. I was told there was a new project and I 15 should take a look at it. 16 Q. Do you recall who told you that? 17 A. I believe it was Henry Merritt. 18 Q. Henry Merritt is deceased today, isn't he? 19 A. I believe so. 20 Q. When do you recall last working with Henry 21 Merritt? 22 A. Shortly before his retirement. I'm vague as 23 to what year that was. 24 Q. Would that have been within the last five 25 years? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 15 1 A. It's possible. 2 Q. To the best of your recollection, relate to 3 the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what Henry 4 Merritt told you about the new project that he was 5 asking you to work on. 6 A. I'm sorry, it's been a long time. I don't 7 remember the specifics of what he told me. He 8 simply said there was a project that I was going to 9 be assigned to. 10 Q. Did he give you an idea of what type of 11 project it was? 12 A. Oh, yes. 13 Q. Although I know that it's been 16 or 17 years 14 and you may not know specific conversations, can 15 you give me a general idea of the discussion that 16 was had between the two of you concerning the 17 project? 18 A. My recollection is vague; but essentially he 19 said, we want to examine test methodologies for the 20 ignition propensity, trying to find a way to 21 measure cigarettes. 22 Q. Before that time, do you know whether or not 23 Philip Morris U.S.A. had undertaken any studies on 24 ignition propensities? 25 A. I don't believe it was done, but I don't know MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 16 1 specifically. 2 Q. Did Henry Merritt give you any idea or reason 3 for the desire to study ignition propensities and 4 to develop test methodology to measure the 5 propensity of cigarettes to ignite materials? 6 A. I'm sure he did. I don't remember the 7 specifics. 8 Q. Do you remember any of the generalities of 9 that? 10 A. There was discussion that concern had been 11 written in the literature and it was something we 12 were interested in. 13 Q. Did he give you an idea or did you know from 14 some other source what concerns were being 15 discussed in the literature concerning ignition 16 propensity? 17 A. Probably questions related to whether or not 18 you could make a cigarette that was somehow less 19 likely to cause ignitions. 20 Q. When you were assigned a project, what is the 21 first aspect of the project that you undertook? 22 A. I reviewed literature that Henry supplied. We 23 started looking at fabrics and tried to determine a 24 test method. 25 Q. I'm sorry? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 17 1 A. We tried to determine a test method. 2 Q. Okay. In what form did Henry Merritt supply 3 literature to you for your study to get you ready 4 for the project? 5 A. Oh, he probably gave me articles. I'm vague. 6 I don't remember. 7 Q. Do you recall him giving you any patent 8 history information concerning patents on fire-safe 9 cigarettes? 10 A. Probably, probably. Or I may have gone and 11 done that myself. 12 Q. Once you were assigned the project, had the 13 objectives or goals of the project already been 14 defined? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Do you recall having any input in the creation 17 or establishment of the goals or objectives of the 18 project? 19 A. Yeah, to some extent I did. 20 Q. Do you recall today what the objectives of 21 Project Hamlet were? 22 A. Initially, test methodology. 23 Q. I'm sorry? 24 A. Test methodology. 25 Q. Establishing a test methodology -- MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 18 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. -- for ignition propensity? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Was an objective of Project Hamlet the 5 development of a cigarette that would 6 self-extinguish? 7 A. Possibly. 8 Q. Did Henry Merritt or anyone else at Philip 9 Morris ever describe to you the hope to develop a 10 self-extinguishing cigarette as a shelf item? 11 A. The goal of development is not necessarily to 12 develop a shelf item. It's develop a marketable 13 product. 14 Q. With respect to Project Hamlet, were you given 15 any information from anyone else at Philip Morris 16 that indicated to you that a self-extinguishing 17 cigarette would be a shelf item? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Were you given any indication that there was a 20 desire to create a marketable product with the 21 self-extinguishing cigarette? 22 A. Within my department, that was everybody's 23 goal. 24 Q. Mr. Greene, I'd like to show you a document on 25 videotape because I don't have it in a hard format MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 19 1 to ask you if you have seen the particular 2 document. 3 A. Sure. 4 Q. So it might -- 5 MR. CRAMPTON: How do you have a 6 document in a videotape? 7 MR. GRISHAM: I have it off of 8 television. 9 MR. CRAMPTON: Well, okay. We can take 10 a look. I may object. 11 MR. GRISHAM: Sure. Okay. 12 MR. BRADEN: Why don't you go off the 13 record, let's look at it and see what it is. 14 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah. 15 (Brief recess.) 16 (Greene Exhibit No. 2 was 17 marked for identification.) 18 MR. GRISHAM: After we took a break, we 19 indeed found that we have a copy of the memo which 20 we intended to show on videotape, and we've copied 21 that down. Thank you for your assistance. 22 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Greene, let me hand you 23 what's been marked as Exhibit No. 2, ask you if 24 you've seen that document before? 25 A. I've only seen this document in the course of MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 20 1 a previous deposition. 2 Q. How many times have you given a deposition 3 before? 4 A. Once. 5 Q. Was that in the Kearney case -- pardon me, the 6 Hamilton case? 7 A. I believe. 8 Q. You believe it was in the Hamilton case? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. How long ago was that? 11 A. About eight years maybe. 12 Q. And what you're telling me is, in the course 13 of that deposition you were shown that document by 14 one of the lawyers involved in the case? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. Prior to seeing the document about eight years 17 ago in the course of a deposition, had you ever 18 seen it before? 19 A. I don't believe so. 20 Q. May I see it? I'll hand it back and forth 21 between us, if need be. 22 A. (Witness complies). 23 Q. Exhibit No. 2 purports to bear a date of 24 September 4th, 1979; and you were employed at 25 Philip Morris on that date, during that era, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 21 1 correct? 2 A. Yes, I was. 3 Q. It purports to be directed to a Dr. R.B. 4 Seligman. Do you know who that individual is? 5 A. Yes. Dr. Seligman was at one point director 6 of the Research Center. 7 Q. Do you know his whereabouts today? 8 A. No, I don't. 9 Q. It purports to be from a W.F. Gannon, which I 10 think we've established earlier was Walt Gannon, 11 who you are familiar with, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you know in 1979 what position Mr. Gannon 14 held with the company? 15 A. I believe that he was director of Product 16 Development. 17 Q. With respect to the self-extinguishing 18 cigarette and any project surrounding that 19 potential product, do you ever recall hearing 20 anyone at Philip Morris use language to the effect 21 of producing an item, a shelf item? 22 A. I don't recall that, no. 23 Q. Do you recall being present at or hearing or 24 receiving information from an oral presentation 25 from Henry Merritt concerning the situation? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 22 1 A. No. 2 Q. Involving the fire-safe or self-extinguishing 3 cigarette? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Do you know if, in fact, such an oral 6 presentation ever occurred? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. Do you know Mr. Gannon's whereabouts today? 9 A. Not directly. I believe he's in Richmond, but 10 I really don't know. 11 Q. Is he retired? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you have a copy of the deposition 14 transcript from the Hamilton deposition? 15 A. No, I do not. 16 Q. Have you ever testified at trial or before any 17 governing body before? 18 A. Other than the deposition, no. 19 Q. I'd like to redirect your attention back to 20 the time that you were assigned your involvement 21 with Project Hamlet. We were talking about some of 22 the objectives, and you've described an objective 23 that you were made aware of to create a test 24 methodology for ignition propensity, correct? 25 A. Yes. That was our goal. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 23 1 Q. Other than developing or attempting to develop 2 a test for ignition propensity, did you also work 3 in the areas of testing particular prototypes for 4 ignition propensity qualities? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did you eventually create a measurement of 7 ignition propensity? 8 A. We created a measurement that we felt, in some 9 way, might be able to discern some differences in a 10 very limited sense. 11 Q. Differences in the ignition propensity of 12 commercial cigarettes? 13 A. Differences among cigarettes in general. 14 Q. Were the differences that you were seeking to 15 discern, differences in ignition propensity, or are 16 you referring to different designs that you were 17 testing? 18 A. We would like to have looked at ignition 19 propensity as a global thing, but the best you can 20 do in science is try and make a thing which tells 21 you something and hope that it relates in some kind 22 of way. 23 Q. Tell me about the ignition propensity index. 24 A. It was a test that we developed to try and see 25 if there was really a difference among cigarettes. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 24 1 Q. Were you instrumental in developing that test? 2 A. Yes, I was. 3 Q. And setting forth the protocol for the 4 procedures and things of that nature? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. About when was the ignition propensity index 7 established? 8 A. I don't remember. 9 Q. Was it a valuable test? 10 A. It showed some -- that you could see some 11 differences under certain conditions. 12 Q. What sort of differences? 13 A. You could see differences in the time it took 14 to get glowing combustion on a piece of fabric. 15 Q. Was the measure of the time to ignition an 16 important factor to be able to establish in 17 attempting to create a self-extinguishing 18 cigarette? 19 A. Could you say that again, please? 20 Q. Yes. Is the time to ignition a quality that 21 was important to your research project in 22 establishing ultimately a low ignition propensity 23 cigarette? 24 A. Well, I don't necessarily believe we've been 25 able to build a low ignition propensity cigarette. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 25 1 But you start where you start, and you go with what 2 you can figure out. 3 Q. Sure. My question was more directed towards 4 the goal of developing a low ignition propensity 5 cigarette. What I was hoping to find out is if you 6 believe that the concept of measuring the time to 7 ignition of a cigarette translates into a valuable 8 test for determining the ignition propensity of 9 cigarettes? 10 A. Does the goal -- 11 Q. Yeah, that's a long one. 12 A. Yeah. That's a run-on sentence. Okay. I 13 thought it was a good goal. 14 Q. In terms of the goal of creating a low 15 ignition propensity cigarette, was the aspect of 16 ignition time span an important factor? 17 A. It was a factor. I don't know how to weight 18 its importance. 19 Q. Why was that a factor in the goal of 20 developing an ignition -- low ignition propensity 21 cigarette? 22 A. Only thing we could think of to measure. 23 Q. Was there a correlation between the burn 24 temperature of the test cigarettes in manipulating 25 time to ignition during the course of your research MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 26 1 and study? 2 A. I don't think we really could look at that. 3 Q. What is the range of temperatures of heat 4 generated from a burning cigarette does one see in 5 a commercial brand? 6 A. Under what conditions? 7 Q. Under both puff conditions and idle rest 8 conditions in air. 9 A. It's been a while since I've looked at any of 10 those numbers. I would believe, under what we call 11 static burn conditions, the coal temperature would 12 be about 600 degrees centigrade. Under puffing, 13 900. 14 Q. So the ignition propensity index that you 15 developed contained a factor, and that was time to 16 ignition; but that was one factor, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And there were other factors that also went 19 into the measure of or the quantification of burn 20 propensity through that index, correct? 21 A. That was a very specific test, almost pushed 22 to the limits to try and discern a difference among 23 cigarettes. It was very limited applicability to 24 anything other than itself. 25 Q. Besides the time to ignition component of the MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 27 1 index, what other components were there? 2 A. I don't understand. Like what? 3 Q. In terms of establishing the index, it was my 4 belief that there were different components, 5 different measurements, that when combined, one 6 could use to establish a score on the index? 7 A. I -- the test was placing cigarettes down and 8 seeing how long it took. We would test it -- we 9 would pull all the cigarettes up at one minute and 10 see if there was glowing ignition anywhere. 11 At two minutes, we'd take another set of 12 cigarettes and do two minutes and so on and just 13 mathematically average that out. 14 Q. Okay. Well, that explains what I was asking. 15 It was a mathematical average of times to ignition 16 essentially? 17 A. To glowing combustion on that substrate, yeah, 18 on the fabric. 19 Q. And the substrate that was being used in the 20 test protocol on the mock-up in Hamlet was 21 polyurethane foam? 22 A. Oh, I don't think of the foam as the 23 substrate. I think of the fabric as the 24 substrate. It was backed with high-density 25 polyurethane foam. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 28 1 Q. What was -- was a velvet material used as the 2 substrate? 3 A. It was cotton fabric, upholstery fabric. 4 Q. 100 percent cotton? 5 A. Oh, I guess. It's been a long time. I 6 suppose it was. 7 Q. During the course of the Hamlet project or 8 your involvement with the Hamlet project and the 9 testing of different designs on the mock-up -- 10 A. Different cigarette designs? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. -- I assume that data was gathered concerning 14 the characteristics of the cigarette design with 15 that particular test? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How was that data stored? 18 A. On paper and on computer. 19 Q. How was it stored on computer? 20 A. The data about the physical design of the 21 cigarettes? 22 Q. And the scoring or test results. 23 A. In ASCII files. 24 Q. Who is the custodian of those files today? 25 A. I don't know that those files still exist. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 29 1 Q. Who is the custodian of the paper files? 2 A. It would be Barbro Goodman. I would assume. 3 That's who I left it with. 4 Q. Are the paper files when you left them, were 5 they at the laboratory at the Research & 6 Development building? 7 A. Yeah. In one of the buildings, yeah, in the 8 lab. 9 Q. What sort of test result data was stored as 10 you conducted your series of tests in Hamlet? 11 A. I generally stored information relating to the 12 physical characteristics of the cigarette. It's 13 tobacco weight, what kind of paper was put on and 14 so on. 15 Q. In terms of burn test results, what was 16 stored? 17 A. I don't know that I ever stored burn test 18 results. If they were there, they were maybe 19 related to memos that were produced, that sort of 20 thing, but... 21 Q. How often would you or your project or 22 department, with respect to the Hamlet project, 23 make reports concerning the progress of the 24 project? 25 A. I would -- I would vaguely say about monthly. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 30 1 Q. During the course of the Hamlet testing of the 2 burning cigarettes on substrate, what was the range 3 of times that you personally witnessed cigarettes 4 smolder before ignition was reached? 5 A. We had a variety of results. There were 6 certainly cases where on the tests cigarettes 7 caused an ignition before one minute. There were 8 situations where cigarettes would cause ignition at 9 five minutes. 10 What you're looking at is a weighted average 11 of a lot of cigarettes. To come up with the 12 I.P.I., you're maybe looking at 200 cigarettes. 13 You know, it's a lot of stuff. So there were a 14 variety of numbers that we produced anywhere from 15 one minute to ten minutes. 16 Q. Did you, in laboratory conditions such as I've 17 described with the mock-up we've talked about, 18 witness cigarettes that would smolder before 19 ignition for 45 minutes to an hour? 20 A. No. I never took anything out that far. If 21 it didn't cause ignition in ten minutes, we didn't 22 bother going further. 23 MR. CRAMPTON: Just so we're clear, 24 you're talking about the cigarette smoldering 25 before smoldering ignition of the fabric, or are MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 31 1 you talking about smoldering of the fabric for 45 2 minutes? 3 MR. GRISHAM: Smoldering of the 4 cigarette before ignition of the substrate. 5 MR. CRAMPTON: That's the way you 6 understood the question, isn't it? 7 A. Yeah. We put the cigarette in contact with 8 the fabric and we let it go, and it's not going to 9 burn more than ten minutes because by then the 10 cigarette's burned up. 11 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Did you witness any 12 situations in the laboratory where smolder of the 13 fabric or substrate--so that we're using the same 14 terminology--would last for upwards to 45 minutes 15 to an hour before ignition? 16 MR. CRAMPTON: When you say "ignition" 17 there, you're talking about making a transition to 18 flaming ignition? 19 MR. GRISHAM: Sure. 20 MR. CRAMPTON: Because when he says 21 "ignition," he means smolder. So you're talking 22 about smoldering until something more than that? 23 A. Yeah, and that's an excellent point. What we 24 are looking for was smoldering burn of the fabric. 25 Once it started smoldering, we put it out. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 32 1 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Right. The test was 2 completed at that point? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And what you're saying is that by 10 minutes 5 the cigarette had burned to the length of its rod, 6 and if no ignition of the fabric had occurred, then 7 the test was over then as well? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Were any tests conducted whereby the length of 10 time before ignition of the substrate was taken out 11 to 45 minutes to an hour? 12 A. No. That's -- it was not practical. 13 Q. Why was it not practical? 14 A. Well, it's not practical because if you're 15 going to have an ignition, it's going to happen 16 within a fairly reasonable length of time. You 17 only have a certain length of rod, and when the 18 rod's used up, the rod's used up. 19 Once you've got ignition of the -- I'm 20 sorry, smoldering burn in the fabric itself, we 21 weren't trying to test the fabrics, per se. 22 Q. That was my next question. As a part of the 23 Hamlet studies then, you were not looking at and 24 did not study the length of time after ignition of 25 the fabric but before the smolder turned into MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 33 1 flames? 2 A. Oh, no, we never -- no. 3 Q. Were you ever present during or did you 4 conduct crevice testing? 5 A. We tried crevice testing early on in our 6 methodology. It was simply too complex an issue to 7 model. I mean, there's just no way to know that 8 you have the same amount of pressure each time, the 9 same depth -- it's too many variables. It was just 10 too hard to do. 11 Q. Can you explain to me how a burning cigarette 12 when laid upon a fabric substrate causes ignition? 13 A. I don't think I know that. 14 Q. Tell me what you do know about it and what the 15 unknowns are in the equation. 16 A. When a -- on our tests when a cigarette is 17 placed in contact with the fabric, there's an 18 unknown effect from the amount of pressure that the 19 technician uses in placing the cigarette 20 there--couldn't quantify that. Therefore, there's 21 an aspect here of contact between the cigarette and 22 the fabric that is unmeasurable. We don't have a 23 way to measure. 24 Then there are a dozen -- just hundreds and 25 hundreds of other factors that could probably play MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 34 1 a role in how well the test performed. One could 2 make an argument for whether or not there was 3 oxygen coming from the bottom of the test 4 apparatus. Just -- there are so many 5 possibilities, I don't know how to -- how to even 6 begin to list them all and enumerate them all. 7 Q. Were there any prototypical cigarette designs 8 during the course of the Hamlet studies that in 9 laboratory conditions you believe tended to show a 10 reduced ignition propensity to the mock-up? 11 A. You mean a reduced ignition propensity index 12 number, i.e., a bigger number? 13 Q. Higher number, yes. 14 A. Sure. 15 Q. What were the designs that reflected a higher 16 index number or, thus, a lower tendency to ignite? 17 A. There were a lot of design parameters that on 18 a single test showed a difference. And I could 19 give you a list of things, but I don't -- I would 20 really hesitate to think that they were 21 exhaustive. There were tendencies for paper that 22 burned slower to take a longer time to ignition. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. That's a -- as an example, that -- you don't 25 know if that's meaningful or not. I doubt that MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 35 1 that translates to much of anything in the real 2 world. 3 There were tests where a smaller 4 circumference, for example, might have taken longer 5 than a larger circumference. Although, when you 6 talk about any change to the cigarette -- to the 7 system that is represented by the cigarette, you 8 have to keep in mind that there is no way to change 9 a single variable. 10 Cigarettes that are smaller in circumference 11 are smaller in weight -- I mean, lower in weight 12 and a whole lot of other factors. So it's hard to 13 say that a given parameter does something as 14 opposed to this particular model with this kind of 15 configuration having a longer time on a very 16 specific test. 17 Q. This may go back to what we were talking about 18 earlier. Why was time to ignition something that 19 you focused on? I know you said it was all you 20 could think of to measure, but why was that 21 important within the overall objective of creating 22 a reduced ignition propensity cigarette? 23 A. It was all I could measure. And additionally, 24 it was something that had appeared in the 25 literature at the time as a factor that other MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 36 1 people thought was important. 2 Q. Sitting here today, do you think that the time 3 to ignition is an important factor in the study of 4 the design of reduced ignition propensity 5 cigarettes? 6 A. I think that is one of a lot of variables and 7 it's certainly the easiest to measure. Whether 8 it's the most critical or not, I couldn't tell you. 9 Q. Do you believe that that -- the concept of 10 reduced ignition time translates into a safer 11 cigarette in the real world? 12 A. Couldn't tell you that. 13 MR. CRAMPTON: I think you meant 14 increased ignition time. 15 MR. GRISHAM: Did I say -- 16 MR. CRAMPTON: Increased ignition time. 17 MR. GRISHAM: Okay. Thanks for 18 pointing that out. 19 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) What I meant to ask you and 20 I thought maybe you and I were on the same plane, 21 but to make sure, do you believe that a cigarette 22 with a higher ignition propensity index number, in 23 other words, a longer -- 24 A. Higher number. 25 Q. Higher number, longer period of time to ignite MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 37 1 translates into a safer cigarette in the real 2 world? 3 A. I couldn't tell you that. 4 Q. We were talking about paper burn rate as being 5 something that was looked at, smaller circumference 6 that you remember creating a higher ignition 7 propensity number in the lab. What other design 8 parameters do you recall creating a higher number 9 and, thus, a less ignition prone cigarette? 10 MR. CRAMPTON: Object to the form of 11 the question to the extent you said "and thus a 12 less ignition prone cigarette." 13 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Well, just so we're clear, I 14 understood you were telling me earlier that in the 15 course of your studies there were certain types of 16 cigarettes that had higher ignition propensity 17 index numbers, correct? 18 A. I remember higher numbers, yes. 19 Q. And the higher numbers were the result of 20 tests wherein the cigarette showed lesser 21 propensity to ignite substrate? 22 A. You know, that's not actually what that says. 23 Q. Okay. Tell me what it says. 24 A. What that says is we've got a number that -- 25 that shows how long this mock-up took under these MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 38 1 conditions to ignite that piece of fabric. How 2 long does not mean how likely it is. It is 3 conceivable that a cigarette might take a long time 4 but be 100 percent igniting, where another 5 cigarette might be very short time but only a few 6 of them light. I mean, so that's the quandary 7 there. 8 Q. That being the case, why was that the focus of 9 study under the objective of creating a cigarette 10 that would self-extinguish? 11 A. Best test method I had at the time. That's 12 all I could come up with. 13 Q. Do you know whether a slower burning paper 14 translates into a safer cigarette in the real 15 world? 16 A. No. 17 Q. You don't know, or the answer's no? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Do you believe that a smaller circumference 20 cigarette translates into a safer cigarette in the 21 real world? 22 A. Do I personally believe that? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. No. 25 Q. Why? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 39 1 A. The conditions in the real world are so 2 complex. There are things that you could do that 3 would help in one situation and probably hurt you 4 in another situation. 5 Q. Do you believe that in the real world 6 environment a smaller circumference cigarette is 7 likely to increase the number of ignitions? 8 A. I can't tell you that. I don't know. 9 MR. CRAMPTON: You can ask it again. 10 If you've already asked it, it's all right. 11 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Are there circumstances, in 12 your opinion, under real world environmental 13 situations wherein you believe that the smaller 14 circumference cigarette would be more prone to 15 cause fires? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. In the course of your studies and 18 investigations with Hamlet, did you look at tobacco 19 blend as a factor in reducing cigarette ignition 20 propensity? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What were your findings, as a result of those 23 studies? 24 MR. CRAMPTON: By "ignition 25 propensity," you're talking about the index now? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 40 1 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Ignition propensity in 2 general within the realm of the Hamlet project? 3 A. I can't tell you about ignition propensity in 4 general. I can tell you about the index number. 5 Q. Okay. Did Hamlet involve anything more than 6 testing the length of ignition of specifically 7 designed prototypes? 8 A. For example? I don't -- 9 Q. Likelihood of ignition. 10 A. The likelihood of ignition? 11 Q. In other words, what I think I hear you saying 12 is, look, I can't tell you anything about Hamlet 13 except the ignition propensity index in terms of 14 what you're asking me? 15 A. I can't say anything about the real world. 16 The real world is an extremely large and complex 17 system. I can tell you what we did on our tests 18 and then what I can remember from 17 years ago. 19 Q. I understand. And you're doing a very good 20 job. What I'm trying to get to is understanding 21 that today you're not going to be able to tell me 22 about and you just don't know about the effect of 23 ignition propensity characteristics in the real 24 world environment? 25 A. That's very correct. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 41 1 Q. I know that, and so I'm going to try to 2 confine my questions to the work that you did in 3 Hamlet, which I understood dealt with a mock-up? 4 A. That's -- yes. 5 Q. And that mock-up was a -- consisted of various 6 fabric coverings over polyurethane foam, correct? 7 A. Actually a fabric over polyurethane foam, yes. 8 Q. What was that fabric, a velvet? 9 A. A cotton cloth. It had a velvet texture on 10 the top, but we characterized it as a cotton cloth 11 as opposed to velvet. 12 Q. And in the course of performing the studies on 13 this mock-up, I know that you developed this 14 ignition propensity index and it provides a score? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Other than the results of the testing 17 providing you the score, can you tell me other 18 characteristics of the different designs in terms 19 of their performance on the mock-up? 20 A. When we performed tests on parameters, on 21 variables about the cigarette, we attempted to look 22 at 100 percent blends--blends that were composed of 23 all one type of tobacco. 24 We attempted to modify most everything we 25 could think of to modify about the cigarette at one MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 42 1 time or another and try those singly and look and 2 see whether there was a big difference in the 3 index. 4 Q. Were there any particular design 5 characteristics of any of the prototypes that you 6 tested that consistently provided high ignition 7 propensity index numbers? 8 A. There were some trends probably. 9 Q. Okay. Can you tell me what those trends 10 consisted of? 11 A. No. I would have to refer to documentation 12 from that era. It's been a long time. 13 Q. All right. I can appreciate that. We'll go 14 through some of them here in a moment. 15 Have you worked on Project Tomorrow? 16 A. No, I have not. 17 Q. Do you recall any particular commercial brands 18 of cigarettes that were tested on the mock-up as a 19 part of Hamlet? 20 A. Yes, yes, we did test commercial brands. 21 Q. Of the commercial products that you recall 22 conducting tests on, were there any commercial 23 products that tended to show a trend of exhibiting 24 high ignition propensity index numbers? 25 A. Yeah, yeah. There were -- there were some. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 43 1 That was the design -- I mean, that was the 2 criteria for designing the test. 3 Q. Okay. Do you recall what commercial brands 4 tended to show high -- tended to show a trend of 5 high ignition propensity index numbers? 6 A. I believe in our first testing we identified 7 the More as being a higher number most of the time, 8 and Nat Sherman's brands as being a higher number. 9 Q. Now, the More cigarette back during the 1970's 10 was a domestic cigarette, correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Who manufactured that? 13 A. R.J. Reynolds. 14 Q. Were there characteristics about the More 15 during that testing that your team felt like 16 created those higher I.P. index numbers? 17 A. We certainly identified that the paper was 18 unusual. It's brown, among other things. It's 19 maybe on the less porous end of the commercial 20 cigarette range. We can't know much about the 21 blend, so we couldn't do anything with that. 22 Q. Was the circumference of the More cigarette 23 slimmer? 24 A. Yes, it was. It's also a longer cigarette, 25 which has an effect on that test. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 44 1 Q. Generally what is the effect of a longer 2 cigarette on the ignition propensity index test? 3 A. It makes it tougher to obtain a number because 4 it's tougher to make sure that you're reliably 5 putting the cigarette in the same geometry each 6 time. It just makes life harder. 7 Q. Was the More, during the course of that 8 testing, an 85 millimeter, 100 millimeter, 120 9 millimeter cigarette? 10 A. Best of my recollection, it was 120. I don't 11 keep up with them very much. 12 Q. The Nat Sherman brand is a European brand of 13 cigarette, correct? 14 A. I believe it's manufactured in the United 15 States. 16 Q. Oh, is it? Okay. Who manufactures it? 17 A. I'm sorry, Nat Sherman. It's a little shop in 18 New York. They're novelty cigarettes. 19 Q. What do you mean by "novelty cigarettes"? 20 A. The number of cigarettes sold per year at that 21 time was exceedingly small. They're for parties 22 and special occasions. They're, you know, bright 23 colors and all kinds of strange things on them. 24 Q. Did you identify what with the Nat Sherman 25 tended to show these higher I.P. index numbers? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 45 1 A. You're asking what about the Nat Sherman 2 caused the index number to be higher? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Well, certainly we're not sure of everything 5 about it. The entire cigarette was just very 6 different than normal. Additionally, a commercial 7 brand is manufactured with some quality-control 8 restrictions to them that, you know, we try and 9 manufacture the same kind of thing each time. 10 My understanding was Nat Sherman's a little 11 shop with a little maker in the back and he gets 12 cigarette papers from random sources and tobacco 13 from random sources, and he makes a run and makes 14 up a bunch of cigarettes. 15 So I -- the paper, I don't believe, was what 16 we consider normal cigarette paper. It's been a 17 long time since I played with those -- with that 18 information. But the paper tended to be less 19 porous in some cases. It varied widely. It had 20 very strong dyes in there that I generally would 21 not like to see on a product consumed. 22 My understanding was he didn't have any, 23 what we call, after-cut flavors or anything on his 24 cigarettes. So there are a variety of things about 25 his cigarettes that were very unusual. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 46 1 Q. What about the characteristics did you or your 2 project team believe created the higher I.P. index 3 numbers? The less porous paper, I thought you 4 mentioned a moment ago? 5 A. Yeah. The cigarettes tended to just go out on 6 their own. That, again, varied widely. I believe 7 that those dyes on that paper were very strange 8 things, and that certainly could have contributed 9 to their performance. 10 Additionally, those were also very long 11 cigarettes. And, again, your ability to be in 12 contact -- you know, it's impossible to get the 13 fabric entirely flat. You know, the geometry is 14 just tough to handle on those long cigarettes. 15 Q. With respect to the ignition propensity scale 16 that you developed, the high end of the scale was 17 10-1/2 minutes, correct? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Why 10-1/2 minutes? Is that the length of 20 time it takes a cigarette to burn to the end? 21 A. On average. 22 Q. And is that the reason for picking that as the 23 top of the scale? 24 A. Yeah. Nothing came close, so that seemed like 25 a good cutoff point. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 47 1 Q. Did most commercial cigarettes that were 2 tested during Project Hamlet fall within the one to 3 two-and-a-half minute time frame for time to 4 ignition? 5 A. I'd hate to answer that. I don't remember the 6 specific numbers. Our goal was to test until they 7 all either caused ignition or they all 8 self-extinguished. 9 Q. And you took a weighted average of all of one 10 type of cigarette or one prototype? 11 A. Well, of one -- you're talking about 12 commercial brands? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. Yeah. Oh, yeah, sure. 15 Q. Sure. Whether you were testing commercial 16 brands or a prototype that you wanted to look at, 17 it's my understanding what you did is you had a 18 certain number run or you got a certain number of 19 the commercial competitor brands and you might test 20 200 cigarettes, and you took an average of those to 21 arrive at your index number? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Was 200 a fairly typical number to run a test 24 on? 25 A. It depended on the performance of the MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 48 1 cigarette. 2 Q. How so? 3 A. I don't remember how many times we would 4 repeat the test. That's -- but if all five or all 5 ten of your cigarettes caused ignition in one 6 minute, there was no point in putting all ten of 7 them for two minutes and so on. So there were 8 certainly situations where cigarettes would -- 9 where we wouldn't have to run 200 cigarettes in 10 order to get a weighted average number. 11 Q. Did Project Hamlet continue after you left in 12 1986 to go into the computer application aspect? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. How long did it continue? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Did a particular person undertake the duties 17 that you had been assigned while -- 18 A. Barbro Goodman pretty much took them over. 19 Q. Okay. During the course of the 11-year 20 period, roughly, that you worked on Hamlet from 21 1975 to '86, was the entire period of time used to 22 burn different cigarette designs and assign an 23 ignition propensity index number to them? 24 A. No. I didn't work on Hamlet for that period 25 of time. I roughly started in 1980. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 49 1 Q. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. You started your 2 employment with Philip Morris in '75? 3 A. In '75, that's right. 4 Q. Okay. Let me rephrase the question then. 5 From 1980, roughly, until '86 when you moved on to 6 computer applications, was the course of your work 7 on Hamlet to do just what you've described--that 8 is, performed ignition propensity index testing on 9 cigarettes; in other words, burn them and assign a 10 number to them for that six-year period? 11 A. No. We did a variety of things. 12 Q. Tell me some of the -- tell me, to the best of 13 your ability, the other things that you did. 14 A. Well, we worked on methodology a lot. We 15 worked also on trying to examine what kind of 16 factors about the fabric made them different. And 17 certainly we worked on trying to find ways, 18 patentable ways, of making -- making a cigarette 19 that performed better. 20 Q. During the course of your research in Hamlet, 21 did you identify fabric factors that you felt like 22 played a role in ignition propensity? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What were those factors? 25 A. The geometry of the fabric itself. Fabrics MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 50 1 come in a variety of weave patterns and so on. We 2 certainly saw differences there. The type of 3 fabric used itself, whether it be cotton or 4 polyester or nylon or so on. And, in particular, 5 the salts in the fabric itself. Simply washing a 6 fabric makes it resistant to, you know, ignition to 7 the glowing smoldering burn. 8 Q. In addition to removing the salts, what -- 9 what about the geometry of the fabrics did you find 10 made them less prone to ignition? 11 A. We had fabrics that were lumpy, you know, odd 12 shape, so on. That means it's hard to be in 13 contact unless you change the angle. So those were 14 difficult to use on our tests. And I imagine the 15 coarseness of the weave had some impact. 16 I'm vague as to the details of that. It's 17 been a long time. 18 Q. What about the fabric type did you find 19 created a reduced ignition propensity? 20 A. The fabric type? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. You mean cotton as opposed to a synthetic 23 or -- 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. I don't remember. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 51 1 Q. As you sit here today, do you believe that 2 cotton-type fabrics are more prone to ignition than 3 the synthetic? 4 A. That's -- I don't think I could reliably make 5 a judgment on that. I know polyesters tend to melt 6 but... 7 MR. GRISHAM: Is this a good time for a 8 break? 9 MR. CRAMPTON: Yeah, sure. 10 (Brief recess.) 11 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Greene, are you familiar 12 with a program at Philip Morris called the Rod 13 Density Program or, perhaps, the Reduced Rod 14 Density Program? 15 A. I've heard of it. 16 Q. Do you know what it is or was? 17 A. I don't know the details. We're taxed by 18 tobacco weight in some countries. And my feeling 19 is it's a method of making sure the taxes are low. 20 Q. During the course of your work on Hamlet, did 21 you pursue any computer modeling in terms of test 22 methodology? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you work on computer modeling in any 25 aspect of ignition propensity studies? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 52 1 A. No, not directly. 2 Q. Did others work on computer modeling that 3 you're aware of with respect to ignition propensity 4 studies? 5 A. I'm not aware of it. 6 (Brief interruption.) 7 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Greene, are you aware of 8 any computer modeling at Philip Morris dealing with 9 the study of self-extinguishing cigarettes? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Are you aware of any computer modeling dealing 12 with the subject of fire-safe cigarettes? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did any of the investigation or research or 15 study that you engaged in or have engaged in while 16 employed at Philip Morris deal with the commercial 17 feasibility of alternate design cigarettes? 18 A. I don't -- alternate as opposed to the regular 19 commercial brands? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. I looked at brown paper cigarettes as an 22 alternative to white paper cigarettes. I'm sure 23 I've done other things. 24 Q. In terms of the commercial feasibility of a 25 reduced ignition propensity cigarette, did you look MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 53 1 at that aspect of marketing? 2 A. No. I'm not involved with marketing. 3 Q. Did any part of your studies or investigation 4 or research on ignition propensities deal with 5 commercial feasibility? 6 A. No. That's not my area. 7 Q. Did any part of your studies or investigation 8 deal with flavoring or aesthetics? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. How so? 11 A. Aesthetics, in particular -- in paper 12 modification, one of the things that you're 13 interested in is the appearance of the paper. 14 Q. What was the goal or objective in terms of the 15 design parameters with respect to creating 16 something with a high ignition propensity index, 17 but would come close to what was commercially 18 available on the market? Were there particular 19 goals? 20 A. It would -- if there was a goal, it was to 21 make sure that the -- anything that we came up 22 with, the consumer would find acceptable and smoke. 23 Q. In order to achieve that aspect of the goal, 24 were you attempting to replicate what was already 25 on the market in terms of flavor and aesthetics, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 54 1 delivery, aftertaste, grab, things of that nature? 2 A. That would probably generally be a goal, yeah. 3 Q. As a part of your studies in Hamlet, did you 4 look at the aspect of puff count? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Why was that relevant to your studies or 7 important to you in your studies? 8 A. Puff count is a physical characteristic of the 9 cigarette. 10 Q. With respect to a commercial brand cigarette 11 right off the shelf, what is the typical range of 12 puff counts? 13 A. We test puff count under the F.T.C. method, 14 and I believe cigarettes usually fall around 15 8 puffs to 12 puffs. It varies from brand to 16 brand. 17 Q. In the course of your investigations with 18 Hamlet, did you see a trend whereby when the 19 porosity of the paper was altered to make it less 20 porous, the puff count tended to go up? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Was that concern or that situation ever 23 rectified? 24 A. I'm sorry, was the physical -- you're asking 25 if you can decouple puff count and porosity? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 55 1 Q. Perhaps, yes. 2 MR. CRAMPTON: Let's just -- you want 3 to take the television out? 4 (Brief interruption.) 5 A. No, I don't -- I really don't think you can 6 decouple the two very well. 7 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Do you recall any cigarette 8 design, either in a prototypical sense or 9 otherwise, that was tested in Hamlet that created a 10 high ignition propensity index number, yet had an 11 acceptable puff count? 12 A. I couldn't remember those kind of details, no. 13 Q. Do you recall during the course of your work 14 at Philip Morris any testing being done on the 15 ignition qualities of cigarettes within 16 automobiles? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you recall any testing having been done on 19 the ignition propensity of Philip Morris' own 20 commercial brands? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Was the amount of work or resources directed 23 towards the work at Hamlet associated in any 24 fashion with the amount of government activity 25 related to the Fire-Safe Cigarette Act? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 56 1 A. No. 2 Q. In the course of your work with ignition 3 propensities, did you on occasion go to the 4 literature and study the art and pick out 5 particular patents to test? 6 A. Yes. We looked at -- we looked at patent 7 history. 8 Q. Do you recall what the earliest dated 9 fire-safe cigarette patent is? 10 A. No, I don't recall. I'm sure it's very old. 11 Q. Up until the time that you completed your work 12 with Project Hamlet, do you recall how many 13 fire-safe or reduced ignition propensity cigarette 14 patents were registered? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Would it have been in the hundreds? 17 A. I have no idea. 18 Q. Have you ever had any idea patented? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Tell me what patents you've been granted. 21 A. I have a patent for a brown cigarette dye for 22 cigarette papers, and I have another patent for a 23 method of measuring sidestream smoke. 24 Q. What was the benefit of the brown dye patent? 25 What did it offer as a unique quality? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 57 1 A. It did not contain azo dyes, which are in the 2 More cigarette. And the carbon monoxide delivery 3 of that cigarette was more in line with normal 4 cigarettes. 5 Q. Has that brown dye been used commercially? 6 A. No. 7 Q. In the course of your sidestream smoke 8 studies, did you find any effect on ignition 9 propensities of the cigarettes? 10 A. I did not conduct sidestream smoke studies. 11 Q. What sort of patent did you -- were you 12 granted on the sidestream smoke-type product? 13 A. It was with a group of people and what we did 14 was we developed an apparatus that would measure 15 light scattering of sidestream smoke. 16 Q. What is a Greiner machine? 17 A. Greiner is a company that manufactured a 18 machine that purported to measure cigarette paper 19 porosity, how porous the paper is. 20 Q. Did it work by measuring the amount or the 21 length of time it would take to draw a certain 22 volume of air through a certain size tube? 23 A. Through a certain square area of paper, yes. 24 Q. Is that measure something that's still in use 25 in ignition propensity research? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 58 1 A. That measure is generally not in use within 2 the industry any longer. 3 Q. Is the CORESTA measure what is used today? 4 A. Yes, there is a CORESTA permeability 5 measurement today. 6 Q. Have you worked on Project CORESTA? 7 A. Project CORESTA? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. Sorry, I've not ever -- 10 Q. Or the CORESTA -- I hesitate to use Joint 11 Venture because that's another -- 12 MR. CRAMPTON: Task force. 13 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Task force? 14 A. CORESTA is an international agency, and no, I 15 don't work with them directly. I've never really 16 worked with them. I've been to one CORESTA meeting 17 in my life, so. 18 Q. Have you worked on the Joint Venture? 19 A. Joint Venture? 20 Q. I guess you haven't. Dealing with ignition 21 propensity studies? 22 A. No, I have not. 23 Q. Have you served on any advisory board for the 24 -- any governmental agency on the issues of 25 ignition propensity? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 59 1 A. No, I have not. 2 Q. Have you published any papers or treatises or 3 any sort of learned document? 4 A. On ignition propensity? 5 Q. Well, just generally, first. 6 A. No. I'm not much into publishing, although I 7 have a lot of memos. I presented a paper in my 8 undergraduate days at a research conference. 9 Q. Mr. Greene, I want to hand you what's been 10 marked as Exhibit No. 1, which is a copy of Amended 11 Notice of Deposition Duces Tecum. I want to hand 12 you this and ask you to review, particularly, the 13 numbered components on page 2 where we asked for 14 you to bring documents. 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Do you have any documents with you today that 17 fall within any of the three categories on Exhibit 18 2 -- Exhibit 1? 19 A. No, I do not. 20 Q. Do you maintain copies of those documents in 21 any fashion? 22 A. No, I do not. 23 Q. Are they maintained at a specific location at 24 Philip Morris U.S.A. that you're aware of? 25 A. I do not know what Barbro has. Everything we MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 60 1 have is in central files, if it's a document 2 generated at the Research Center. 3 Q. Do you know who the custodian of records is at 4 central files? 5 A. The custodian of records? 6 Q. Person in charge of maintaining the records. 7 A. Probably that would fall under Marion 8 Debardeleben. 9 Q. What was that name again? 10 A. Marion Debardeleben. 11 Q. Can you spell that? 12 A. D-e-b-a-r-d-e-l-e-b-e-n. 13 Q. Thank you. I want to hand you an exhibit that 14 has been marked as Goodman 6. I'm going to ask 15 that it be attached to your deposition, but I'm not 16 going to remark it unless you have some objection 17 to that. We can identify it as Goodman 6 and ask 18 you if you have seen this particular document 19 before? 20 A. I -- I don't believe I've ever seen this 21 document before. I simply -- I don't remember. 22 Maybe in the course of the previous deposition. 23 Q. Do you agree that with the definition of a 24 self-extinguishing cigarette as one that will go 25 out in two to four minutes if not puffed? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 61 1 A. Sounds reasonable to me. 2 Q. Are you familiar with incidences of cigarettes 3 self-extinguishing while on smoking machines? 4 A. Yes. I have heard of that happening. 5 Q. Has that ever happened in your presence? 6 A. No, I don't believe so. 7 Q. Are cigarettes supposed to go out on a smoking 8 machine? 9 A. No. 10 Q. When you've heard of cigarettes extinguishing 11 on a smoking machine, have you also been told of 12 what circumstances were surrounding that, why that 13 may have occurred? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Have you ever wondered why that might happen? 16 A. Oh, yeah, sure. 17 Q. Do you have any answers for why that might 18 happen? 19 A. Any number of things. The construction of the 20 cigarette certainly could bear a large role. 21 Additionally, the packing of the tobacco in a 22 cigarette can bear a role. 23 Q. As a part of your work with ignition 24 propensity, did you ever work with the Cambridge 25 cigarette? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 62 1 A. I don't believe I directly worked with 2 Cambridge. 3 Q. Do you recall reviewing any data concerning 4 the characteristics or qualities of ignition 5 propensity of the Cambridge cigarette? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you know whether or not the Cambridge 8 cigarette was a commercially marketed brand? 9 A. Yeah, Cambridge is a commercial brand. 10 Q. Still today? 11 A. I believe so. 12 Q. Who makes the Cambridge cigarette? 13 A. I think we do. I'm not really sure. I hate 14 to say that, having worked in new products, but 15 I... 16 Q. What -- on page 2 of the memo, if you want to 17 follow along, is where I'm deriving this line of 18 questions. Have you ever done any work with salt 19 casing? 20 A. I have done some limited work with salt 21 casings. 22 Q. What is meant by "salt casings" in terms of 23 cigarette ignition propensity? 24 A. In terms of ignition propensity? 25 Q. Yes. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 63 1 A. In general, salt casings are salts applied to 2 the tobacco in the manufacturing process. That's 3 its -- I mean, that's what a salt casing is. How 4 it relates to Project Hamlet is that we tried 5 different kinds of casings and -- with and without 6 casings to try to see if there was differences in 7 ignition propensity index. 8 Q. Do you recall finding any such differences? 9 A. I believe there were some differences. I'd 10 have to -- have to see memos to remember what. 11 Q. When the tests were performed through Hamlet, 12 such as on salt casings or smaller diameter 13 cigarettes or whatever components you were looking 14 at at that particular time, you mentioned earlier 15 that the results would typically be reported by 16 memo form, correct? 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. Was there no attempt to gather the results and 19 store them separate and apart for a statistical 20 analysis or any other purpose? 21 A. I'm sure there were files that recorded 22 numbers and model type -- model designations and 23 numbers. 24 Q. Where were those files kept when you last 25 worked with them? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 64 1 A. I last worked with them when they were in my 2 directories. When I moved to the computer 3 application division, I handed over what files I 4 had to Barbro, and the rest of the stuff I just 5 deleted. 6 Q. You're referring to directories on your 7 software on your computer? 8 A. Yes, exactly. 9 Q. What type of information would you have 10 deleted? 11 A. Stuff that was already on paper in some 12 fashion. When we make cigarettes, it's assigned an 13 arbitrary code -- code name or code number, 14 alphabet number sequence, and that's the kind of 15 information I kept to keep track of what was what. 16 Q. During the course of your work on Project 17 Hamlet, was the type of research you conducted and 18 the direction that your research taken ever 19 influenced by Philip Morris legal counsel? 20 A. I don't know directly. 21 Q. What about indirectly? 22 A. I'm sure that they had input into my 23 management's directions or concerns, but I don't 24 know what they would be. 25 Q. Mr. Greene, I want to hand you what's been MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 65 1 marked as Exhibit No. 2, and ask you to -- as 2 Exhibit 2 to the Goodman deposition which will be 3 attached to your deposition as well. But I want to 4 ask you if you can identify it? 5 A. This is a -- I guess copies of slides given by 6 Andy Kallianos at some talk of his. 7 Q. Do you remember attending that talk? 8 A. I don't remember if I was there or not. I 9 could well have been. I don't remember. 10 Q. Do you remember seeing the document before 11 you, Goodman 2, prior to today? 12 A. Yes, I have. 13 Q. In what context have you seen it? 14 A. I saw it when we were working on the project. 15 Q. Is Goodman Exhibit 2 a document that was 16 generated as a result of the ignition propensity 17 studies conducted in the Hamlet project? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Is it something -- is it a document that, to 20 your knowledge, was contained in the business 21 records of Philip Morris? 22 A. I don't know that. 23 Q. On the fifth page of that document, Bates 24 No. 854 being the last three digits -- 25 A. Yes. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 66 1 Q. -- there is a listing of three factors under 2 the title "Ideal Solution." Do you recall ever 3 hearing those components of an ideal solution? 4 A. Yes. I have seen these before. 5 Q. At the time you were working on the project, 6 did you agree or disagree with any of these three 7 components to the solution? 8 A. I don't believe I disagreed with any of the 9 components. 10 Q. Did any of the cigarettes or prototypical 11 cigarettes that you investigated in the course of 12 Project Hamlet meet all three of these criteria? 13 A. No. 14 Q. What was the most successful prototype or 15 other cigarette that was investigated in Hamlet 16 with respect to attempting to meet these criteria? 17 MR. CRAMPTON: By "successful," you 18 mean? 19 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Came closest to meeting -- 20 met the most number of criteria. What you would 21 consider to be the most successful outcome from the 22 project in terms of these criteria? 23 A. I couldn't remember the most successful. I 24 never had any that met the criteria. 25 Q. I'm sorry? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 67 1 A. I never had any cigarettes that met the 2 criteria. I couldn't tell you which one was -- I'm 3 not even sure I could evaluate which one was the 4 best. 5 Q. Do you recall developing or testing or 6 investigating designs of cigarettes or prototypes 7 that proceeded towards extinguishment by cool-down 8 when left on fabric and self-extinguished within 9 two to three minutes? I'm reading from No. 2. 10 A. Yeah. But is the first part of the question 11 -- again, you're saying, did I -- 12 Q. Investigate any cigarette design that met that 13 criteria -- criterion? 14 A. That was the whole investigation was trying to 15 meet that criteria. 16 Q. Were there any that met the second criteria? 17 A. I don't exactly understand what the phrase "by 18 cool-down" means; but, no, not really. 19 (Greene Exhibit No. 3 was 20 marked for identification.) 21 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Greene, I'll be handing 22 you a document that's marked as Greene Exhibit 3, 23 and after your attorney has looked at it, I'd like 24 for you to take a moment to familiarize yourself. 25 A. Yes. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 68 1 Q. What is that document? 2 A. This appears to be a quarterly status report. 3 Q. Was it prepared by you? 4 A. No, it was not. 5 Q. Who was it prepared by? 6 A. I believe it was prepared by a Dr. Kallianos. 7 Q. It was signed by you, however, correct? 8 A. It was? 9 Q. Sir? 10 A. I don't know. I don't see a signature on it. 11 MR. GRISHAM: I may not have all the 12 pages of that exhibit. Just a moment. 13 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) What date does it bear? 14 A. It says April 7th, 1981. 15 Q. And the last three digits of the Bates number? 16 A. 900. 17 Q. Under what circumstances do you recall having 18 seen this quarterly status report before today? 19 A. I don't remember when I've seen it. It was 20 probably typical quarterly status report that 21 Dr. Kallianos had put out. 22 Q. Do you recall, as a part of the project you 23 worked on, maintaining that the slim circumference 24 and additives to slow burn rate appeared to hold 25 the most promise for reducing ignition propensity? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 69 1 A. That's -- that's what's written here, yeah. 2 Q. Do you recall feeling that way or having that 3 opinion, back in 1981? 4 A. Sure. 5 Q. Do you recall specifically having meetings 6 with Philip Morris legal counsel concerning the 7 direction of facets of your research on the Hamlet 8 project? 9 A. Never. 10 Q. Sir? 11 A. Never. 12 MR. CRAMPTON: I was going to object to 13 the content of any such meetings, but since they 14 didn't happen, I guess I don't need to. 15 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) You never met Bill Crampton 16 with regard to your research efforts prior to 1993? 17 MR. CRAMPTON: I object to that. I 18 mean, he met with me with respect to one of the 19 cases in which he was deposed. Outside of that, 20 you can ask. 21 MR. GRISHAM: Certainly. That's what 22 I'm asking. 23 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Outside the preparation for 24 cases, I'm talking about in terms of Project 25 Hamlet? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 70 1 A. No. 2 Q. Have you ever been advised by Barbro Goodman 3 that she has had communication with Philip Morris 4 legal department with respect to -- 5 A. I don't remember her saying anything to that 6 effect. 7 (Greene Exhibit No. 4 was 8 marked for identification.) 9 THE WITNESS: Can I take a time out 10 here? 11 MR. CRAMPTON: Sure. Let's go off the 12 record. 13 (Brief recess.) 14 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Greene, I want to hand 15 you again what's been marked as Exhibit 4, and ask 16 you if you recall having seen that document? 17 A. I vaguely remember this document. 18 Q. Under what circumstances do you remember the 19 document? 20 A. Oh, I just -- I remember that Andy did some 21 work with this and wrote it up. I wasn't copied on 22 it, so I don't know if I actually got to see the 23 actual document. 24 Q. That was Andrew Kallianos? 25 A. Yes. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 71 1 Q. And the document purports to bear a date of 2 June 4th, 1981. Does that comply with your memory 3 and recollection of about when the events described 4 in the document took place? 5 A. Yeah. I couldn't dispute that. 6 Q. Do you recall the circumstances surrounding 7 the smolder rate testing of a full flavor 84 8 millimeter filtered cigarette manufactured from a 9 commercial blend of cased and cut tobaccos? 10 A. I'm sorry, you're asking me if I remember a 11 cigarette like that or -- 12 Q. If you remember testing a cigarette like that? 13 A. Yeah. I vaguely remember a crevice test. 14 Q. Do you recall the testing that is described in 15 the memo, Exhibit No. 4? 16 A. Yeah, vaguely. 17 Q. What were the circumstances of that testing? 18 A. My memory was that Dr. Kallianos had read an 19 article, and he wanted to see if he could reproduce 20 that. 21 Q. Did you assist in any way on the test? 22 A. I remember observing it. I don't know that I 23 actually did that. I think one of the fellows that 24 reported to me, a technician that worked for me, 25 did some of the work with Dr. Kallianos. But it's MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 72 1 been a long time. I don't remember the details. 2 Q. What was the setup for the test? Was it on 3 the mock-up? 4 A. This test? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. I really couldn't tell you. 7 Q. Do you recall it being a furniture mock-up? 8 A. No. This is -- this is -- relates to a 9 crevice test. The furniture mock-up is a flat bed 10 test. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. This would, at best, involve something at a 13 right angle. 14 Q. All right. 15 A. But it could vary under any number of angles. 16 Q. Do you recall the results that were obtained 17 from the testing that you observed? 18 A. Vaguely, yes. 19 Q. What do you recall about that? 20 A. That the cigarettes smoldered for a long time. 21 Q. What length of time did they smolder? 22 A. It says here 60 minutes. 23 Q. Do you agree or disagree with that? 24 A. I don't recall being at that, so I don't have 25 any direct facts on it. If he said so, fine. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 73 1 Q. In your experience, what would cause a 2 cigarette to smolder for 60 minutes under test 3 conditions like that? 4 A. Not having a lot of oxygen available, being in 5 a confined space. 6 Q. Okay. In paragraph 3 of the memo marked as 7 Exhibit 4, Andy Kallianos writes, quote, when 8 self-extinguishment did not occur during the first 9 two to five minutes, the system proceeded to total 10 conflagration uninterruptedly. Do you agree or 11 disagree with that conclusion? 12 A. I was not present during any conflagration, so 13 I cannot agree or disagree. 14 Q. With respect to a cigarette placed on a 15 fabric, upholstered-type mock-up, do you agree that 16 to avoid ultimate ignition, the cigarette must 17 self-extinguish within the first two to five 18 minutes? 19 A. Not necessarily. 20 Q. Under what circumstances could the cigarette 21 not self-extinguish in two to five minutes, yet not 22 achieve ignition? 23 A. Say that again, please. 24 Q. Sure. What circumstances would you suppose 25 might exist whereby a cigarette would smolder MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 74 1 longer than two to five minutes, yet not reach 2 ignition of the substrate? 3 A. Any number of cigarettes might do that. 4 Cigarettes that were extremely low weight, not in 5 contact, that's a possibility. 6 Q. In the fourth paragraph of the memo marked as 7 Exhibit 4, Andy Kallianos writes, quote, to our 8 amazement when the cigarette was placed into a 9 crevice, there was little evidence that ignition of 10 the mock-up had taken place for the first 15 to 20 11 minutes, closed quote. 12 Do you recall that occurring in any of the 13 tests that you observed? 14 A. No. As I said, I don't really recall being 15 there for a lot of his testing on the crevice work. 16 Q. Does that statement surprise you, or do you 17 disagree with it? 18 A. No, it does not surprise me. 19 Q. Why not? 20 A. It's a possibility. I would not think it's 21 impossible. 22 Q. Further into paragraph 4, Dr. Kallianos 23 writes, quote, the direction of burn in the mock-up 24 tended to be predominately along the cigarette axis 25 and away from the coal in the cigarette, closed MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 75 1 quote. 2 Do you agree or disagree with the general 3 principle that that is how the cigarette propagates 4 its burn? 5 A. Do I disagree or agree with that? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. I would tend to agree with it. 8 Q. On page 2 of that document, Mr. Greene, 9 sentence 3, Andy Kallianos writes, quote, it should 10 be appreciated that when the smoldering front of 11 the mock-up moves in the direction of the cigarette 12 burn, the fate of the cigarette is influenced more 13 by the fire in the system than by the smoldering 14 rate of the cigarette, closed quote. 15 Do you agree or disagree with that 16 statement? 17 A. I would tend to agree with that statement. 18 Q. Why is that the case? 19 A. The cigarette may provide an initial ignition 20 or initial smolder condition; and once that's 21 happened, then the -- whatever's burning the most, 22 providing the most heat would probably be the thing 23 that drives the system as opposed to the cigarette 24 itself. 25 Q. From the information contained in Exhibit 4 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 76 1 and from your experience through a number of years 2 working on Project Hamlet and the ignition 3 propensity studies, can we conclude then that a 4 cigarette, a commercial cigarette, lying in a 5 crevice is going to respond differently and act 6 differently than a cigarette lying on a flat 7 surface? 8 A. I hate to make generalized conclusions like 9 that, but it's probably very likely. The real 10 world is much more complex than either of these 11 test methods. 12 Q. In what way would you expect the cigarette in 13 the crevice to act differently than the cigarette 14 on the flat surface? 15 A. I'm not sure how I would expect the cigarette 16 to act differently. I know that there are physical 17 differences in the two systems. There's more 18 pressure being applied, more contact in a crevice 19 situation, but there's also less oxygen available. 20 So any number of complex possibilities are there. 21 Q. Is it more likely to have an extended smolder 22 time if the cigarette's in a crevice, in your 23 experience? 24 A. I wouldn't be surprised. As I said, I didn't 25 do a lot of crevice work myself. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 77 1 (Greene Exhibit No. 5 was 2 marked for identification.) 3 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Greene, I'll hand you 4 what's been marked as Exhibit 5, and ask you to 5 take a moment to review that. 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Under what circumstances do you recall having 8 seen Exhibit 5? 9 A. Dr. Kallianos provided me with a copy of this 10 memo. 11 Q. Did he provide you with a copy of the memo 12 marked as Exhibit 5 at or near the time that 13 purports to be the date in the upper right-hand 14 corner, July 23rd, 1981? 15 A. I would assume so. 16 Q. And what was the purpose for you being 17 provided a copy of the memo? 18 A. I had done the work. 19 Q. Paragraph 1 of Exhibit 5, Dr. Kallianos writes 20 to Leo Meyer that during the past few months your 21 work on ignition propensities had produced several 22 possible alternatives for achieving the ultimate 23 goals of the project, correct? 24 A. Yes, that's what it says. 25 Q. Do you recall by 1981 having produced several MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 78 1 possible alternatives to the -- to achieve the 2 goal? 3 A. Do I recall having had several possible 4 alternatives which achieved the goal? I'm not 5 quite sure what he -- what his goal was. I see he 6 says a model tendency to self-extinguish within 7 three minutes. Okay. 8 Don't really remember, but I would assume 9 that, at least, this model does. 10 Q. Okay. Do you recall the July 1, 1981, 11 prototype that had the tendency to self-extinguish 12 within three minutes on the furniture mock-up? 13 A. Are you referring to the one that's coded here 14 as X6D0BOL? 15 Q. I'm not sure. What I -- what I was 16 particularly looking at was in paragraph 1, the 17 last sentence, which talks about the July 1st, 18 1981, prototype. 19 A. Oh, this model? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you believe that's model X6D0BOL? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you recall that particular prototype? 25 A. Vaguely, yeah. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 79 1 Q. What were the characteristics of it? 2 A. As it says here, it had a cigarette paper P0SA 3 manufactured by Schweitzer, relatively nonporous 4 and contains phosphate. 5 Q. So there were some paper modifications to that 6 model? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you recall any other modifications? 9 A. I don't. And there may well have been other 10 modifications. I don't recall them. 11 Q. Do you know whether or not any panel testing 12 was done for the flavor, aesthetics and other -- 13 A. I don't remember. 14 Q. -- acceptability requirements? 15 A. I don't remember. 16 Q. Do you know if there was any consumer testing 17 done on that prototype? 18 A. Consumer testing? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. No. 21 Q. Was there any objective panel testing done on 22 this prototype, to your recollection? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Did this particular Model X6D0BOL contain any 25 self-extinguishing rings, coded rings on the paper? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 80 1 A. I don't believe so, no. 2 Q. Now, the X6D0BOL was manufactured with 3 commercial blends of tobacco, wasn't it? 4 A. That's what it -- yeah, that's what it says. 5 Q. And it had a tendency to self-extinguish 6 within three minutes or so on the mock-up, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And it had a very low ignition propensity on 9 the mock-up test? 10 A. The I.P.I. was probably low. 11 Q. Was what? 12 A. Ignition propensity index, the index number 13 was probably a high number as opposed to a low 14 number. 15 Q. In paragraph 4, line 3, Andy Kallianos writes, 16 "The cigarette has a tendency to self-extinguish 17 within three minutes or so in the furniture mock-up 18 and has shown a very low ignition propensity on the 19 mock-up test." Do you agree with that? 20 A. Yeah, I guess. 21 Q. He goes on to write his ignition propensity 22 index was calculated to be 8.7 minutes; do you 23 recall that? 24 A. Sure, yeah. 25 Q. That was a very high -- MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 81 1 A. -- number. 2 Q. -- number, wasn't it? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Which means the cigarette had a very low 5 ignition propensity on the test? 6 A. Yeah. Past a certain point, past an index of 7 four or five things, they get kind of vague. 8 Q. He goes on to write that most commercial 9 cigarettes, including the More cigarette, ignite 10 the mock-up within two minutes. Do you recall that 11 occurring? 12 A. Yes, that's correct. 13 Q. Are any of those prototypes, the X6D0BOL, 14 still in existence? 15 A. I would doubt it seriously. 16 Q. Why so? Why would you doubt that? 17 A. Well, the model was made in 1980, hence the 18 D0. We just don't keep them past -- they get 19 beetles and things. We -- 20 Q. W