1 1 CAUSE NO. 26294 2 SHANNA SHIPMAN A/N/F OF ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF 3 SHANNON MOORE, A MINOR, ) Plaintiffs, ) 4 ) VS. ) JOHNSON COUNTY, TEXAS 5 ) PHILIP MORRIS COMPANIES,) 6 INC., PHILIP MORRIS ) INCORPORATED, PHILIP ) 7 MORRIS U.S.A., AND ) SHELLY MOORE, ) 8 Defendants ) 18TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 9 10 11 12 13 14 ORAL DEPOSITION 15 OF 16 RANDALL GREENE 17 18 19 20 21 22 TAKEN AUGUST 29, 1996 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 2 1 I N D E X 2 PAGE 3 EXHIBIT INDEX - - - - - - - - - - - - 3 4 APPEARANCES - - - - - - - - - - - - - 4 5 INFORMATIONAL PARAGRAPH - - - - - - - 5 6 ERRATA PAGE - - - - - - - - - - - - - 6 7 8 THE WITNESS: RANDALL GREENE 9 Examination By Mr. Grisham - - 7 Examination By Mr. Markey - - 119 10 11 12 DEPOSITION CONCLUDED - - - - - - - - 120 13 WITNESS SIGNATURE PAGE - - - - - - - 121 14 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE PAGE - - - - - 122 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 3 1 E X H I B I T I N D E X 2 PAGE 3 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION MARKED 4 1 Notice of Deposition 7 5 2 Memorandum 19 6 3 Quarterly Status Report 67 dated April 7, 1981 7 4 Memorandum 70 8 5 Memorandum dated 77 9 July 23, 1981 10 6 Special Report dated 88 April 19, 1982 11 7 Quarterly Status Report 94 12 8 Quarterly Status Report 97 13 9 Memorandum 98 14 10 Memorandum 104 15 Goodman 2 Presentation by Andrew 65 16 Kallianos 17 Goodman 3 Status Report dated 100 October 1984 18 Goodman 5 Memo by R.K. Greene 101 19 regarding expanded weight series 20 Goodman 6 Memorandum 60 21 Whidby 8 Philip Morris U.S.A. 103 22 Five-Year Plan 23 Whidby 9 Strategic Plan from 108 Philip Morris U.S.A. 24 Research & Development 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 4 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 For The Plaintiffs: 3 Waltman & Grisham 4 3833 S. Texas Avenue, Suite 150 Bryan, Texas 77802 5 By: LYNN GRISHAM 6 For The Defendants, Philip Morris 7 Companies, Inc., et al: 8 Carrington, Coleman, Sloman & Blumenthal 200 Crescent Court, Suite 1500 9 Dallas, Texas 75201 10 By: MIKE BRADEN 11 For The Defendants, Philip Morris U.S.A., et al: 12 Shook, Hardy & Bacon 13 1200 Main Street Kansas City, Missouri 64105 14 By: WILLIAM CRAMPTON 15 Also By: JOHN FRASER 16 For The Defendant, Shelly Moore: 17 St. Clair & Markey Summit Office Building 18 1200 Summit Avenue, Suite 620 Fort Worth, Texas 76102 19 By: EDWARD MARKEY 20 21 RANDALL GREENE, The Witness 22 TAMARA J. BRAUN, 23 Certified Shorthand Reporter 24 ALSO PRESENT: Tim Bishop, Videographer 25 Steve Discher MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 5 1 ANSWERS AND DEPOSITION OF RANDALL GREENE, a 2 witness called by the Plaintiffs, taken before 3 Tamara J. Braun, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in 4 the State of Texas, on the 29th day of August, 5 1996, between the hours of 9:30 a.m. and 1:50 p.m.; 6 in the offices of Hunton & Williams, East Tower, 7 951 East Byrd Street, Richmond, Virginia, pursuant 8 to the notice of counsel for the respective parties 9 as hereinafter set forth. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 6 1 CHANGES MADE TO DEPOSITION 2 Rule 205, "No erasures or obliterations of 3 any kind are to be made to the original testimony as transcribed by the deposition officer. Any 4 changes in form or substance which the witness desires to make shall be furnished to the 5 deposition officer by the witness, together with a statement of the reasons given by the witness for 6 making such changes." Please enter the page number, line number, 7 and the reason for such change or correction. 8 Page/Line Correction Reason for Correction 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RANDALL GREENE MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 7 1 (Greene Exhibit No. 1 was 2 marked for identification.) 3 MR. CRAMPTON: Before you start, Lynn, 4 I just want to acknowledge on the record that this 5 deposition is confidential according to the 6 protective order that's been entered in this case. 7 The transcript and the videotape of the deposition 8 should be maintained confidential according to that 9 order, at least until 30 days after the written 10 transcript is available at which time Philip Morris 11 will designate which portions are confidential and 12 which portions aren't. 13 MR. GRISHAM: Correct. 14 EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. GRISHAM: 16 Q. Would you state your full name for the record, 17 please, Mr. Greene? 18 A. Randall Kent Greene. 19 Q. Where do you reside, Mr. Greene? 20 A. In Richmond. 21 Q. How long have you lived in Richmond? 22 A. Since 1969. 23 Q. How are you employed? 24 A. Employed at Philip Morris Research Center. 25 Q. Is Philip Morris Research Center a part of MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 8 1 Philip Morris U.S.A.? 2 A. Yes, it is. 3 Q. What is the address of the Research Center? 4 A. 4201 Commerce Road, Richmond, Virginia 23261. 5 Q. When were you first employed by Philip Morris 6 U.S.A.? 7 A. June of 1975. 8 Q. Predating your employment with Philip Morris 9 U.S.A., could you go through your past employers 10 and describe for me your background--your 11 employment background--leading up to your 12 employment with Philip Morris U.S.A. 13 A. How far back do you want to go? 14 Q. Beginning with your first job. 15 A. My first job was cutting grass at the age of 9 16 years old. I was self-employed at the time. 17 Q. Self-employed. Continuing forward from the 18 time that you ceased doing summer jobs or high 19 school jobs, can you give me your employment 20 background? 21 A. My largest real big job was with Galeski Photo 22 (phonetics). 23 Q. With what? 24 A. Galeski Photo. It was a photo-processing lab. 25 Q. What was your job there? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 9 1 A. Developing film, machine operator, and later 2 chemical mix. 3 Q. How long did you stay with that employer? 4 A. About four years. 5 Q. Have you ever been in any branch of the Armed 6 Services? 7 A. No, I have not. 8 Q. Following your employment with Galeski Photo, 9 how were you employed? 10 A. Went to Philip Morris. 11 Q. Describe for me your educational background 12 following high school and leading up to and through 13 today. 14 A. I have a Bachelor's in chemistry from Virginia 15 Union University in 1975. 16 MR. MARKEY: I'm sorry, sir. I can't 17 hear you. 18 THE WITNESS: Bachelor's of chemistry 19 degree from Virginia Union University in 1975. 20 MR. MARKEY: Thank you. 21 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Was there any particular 22 discipline within the field of chemistry that you 23 focused your attention or studies? 24 A. No, not particularly. I did participate on a 25 research project. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 10 1 Q. What research project was that? 2 A. The effect of biphenyls on -- polychlorinated 3 biphenyls on rat tissue. 4 Q. Was the emphasis throughout your education on 5 physical chemistry? 6 A. No, not particularly. 7 Q. When you were employed with Philip Morris 8 U.S.A. in 1975, what department were you employed 9 in? 10 A. New products in the section, paper 11 modification. 12 Q. Who was your immediate supervisor at that job? 13 A. Willard Geiszler. 14 Q. And what was his position? 15 A. Project leader. 16 Q. Was the new products paper modification 17 project that you were hired to work on included 18 within the auspices of Research & Development? 19 A. Yes, it was. 20 Q. At that time, who was the director of Research 21 & Development at Philip Morris U.S.A.? 22 A. I honestly couldn't tell you. I don't 23 remember. 24 Q. Was there a gentleman by the name of Gannon 25 that worked with you during that time period? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 11 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What was his full name, if you recall? 3 A. Walt Gannon is all I remember at the moment. 4 Q. What position did he hold during the 1975 time 5 period? 6 A. I believe he was director of new products or 7 product development. 8 Q. How long were you employed in the new products 9 paper modification area at Philip Morris U.S.A. 10 following your starting that position in 1975? 11 A. Until roughly 1986. 12 Q. Did your job title or position within new 13 products change during the course of that 11-year 14 period? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Outline for us, if you will, how it changed. 17 A. I came in at assistant professional. Oh, 18 somewhere around '77, '78, I was promoted to 19 associate professional. And in 1981 or '82, I was 20 promoted to research scientist. 21 Q. In 1986 how did your position within the 22 company change? 23 A. I joined computer applications. 24 Q. Why was that change made in your career path? 25 A. I don't know exactly. There were a lot of MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 12 1 changes in our department and I particular -- in 2 particular, liked programming. And I had done 3 quite a bit of programming through the Research 4 Center for quite a few years. 5 Those programs touched most everybody, and I 6 think they decided that I would be better served 7 with management that could understand what I was 8 doing. 9 Q. Have you remained in computer application 10 since 1986 through today? 11 A. Yes, I have. 12 Q. What is your title in computer applications 13 today? 14 A. My title is Research Scientist. I am project 15 leader of Desktop Services. 16 Q. As the project leader of Desktop Services, do 17 you manage others in the methodology of storing 18 research data at Philip Morris U.S.A.? 19 A. To some extent. 20 Q. Describe for me, if you will, your day-to-day 21 responsibilities in the position of project leader 22 of Desktop Services. 23 A. I have nine professionals reporting to me and 24 I spend most of the day keeping up with them and 25 answering phone calls and E-mails and various MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 13 1 requests from people for computer equipment and 2 laboratory programming services. 3 Q. Does the umbrella of your responsibility cover 4 areas within the company other than research? 5 A. I'm sorry, other than research and 6 development? 7 Q. Correct. 8 A. There are times we have contact with other 9 departments, but Research & Development is our 10 shop. 11 Q. Who is the director of Research & Development 12 today? 13 A. We're in transition from Ken Houghton to Kathy 14 Ellis. I'm not sure who's exactly wearing the hat 15 right now. 16 Q. Is Mr. Houghton still with the company? 17 A. I don't honestly know what his exact status 18 is. 19 Q. In the course of your work at Philip Morris 20 U.S.A., and particularly on the computer 21 applications aspect of that work, have you 22 developed any software or storage methodology to 23 store or collect or arrange test data related to 24 ignition propensity studies? 25 A. No, I have not. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 14 1 Q. Do you know Ms. Barbro Goodman? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. How do you know Barbro Goodman? 4 A. We've worked together since I came to Research 5 Center. 6 Q. Have you had an opportunity in the past to 7 work on Project Hamlet? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q. When did you first begin your work with 10 Project Hamlet? 11 A. I believe that was December of 1979. 12 Q. How is it that you came to work on that 13 project? 14 A. I was told there was a new project and I 15 should take a look at it. 16 Q. Do you recall who told you that? 17 A. I believe it was Henry Merritt. 18 Q. Henry Merritt is deceased today, isn't he? 19 A. I believe so. 20 Q. When do you recall last working with Henry 21 Merritt? 22 A. Shortly before his retirement. I'm vague as 23 to what year that was. 24 Q. Would that have been within the last five 25 years? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 15 1 A. It's possible. 2 Q. To the best of your recollection, relate to 3 the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what Henry 4 Merritt told you about the new project that he was 5 asking you to work on. 6 A. I'm sorry, it's been a long time. I don't 7 remember the specifics of what he told me. He 8 simply said there was a project that I was going to 9 be assigned to. 10 Q. Did he give you an idea of what type of 11 project it was? 12 A. Oh, yes. 13 Q. Although I know that it's been 16 or 17 years 14 and you may not know specific conversations, can 15 you give me a general idea of the discussion that 16 was had between the two of you concerning the 17 project? 18 A. My recollection is vague; but essentially he 19 said, we want to examine test methodologies for the 20 ignition propensity, trying to find a way to 21 measure cigarettes. 22 Q. Before that time, do you know whether or not 23 Philip Morris U.S.A. had undertaken any studies on 24 ignition propensities? 25 A. I don't believe it was done, but I don't know MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 16 1 specifically. 2 Q. Did Henry Merritt give you any idea or reason 3 for the desire to study ignition propensities and 4 to develop test methodology to measure the 5 propensity of cigarettes to ignite materials? 6 A. I'm sure he did. I don't remember the 7 specifics. 8 Q. Do you remember any of the generalities of 9 that? 10 A. There was discussion that concern had been 11 written in the literature and it was something we 12 were interested in. 13 Q. Did he give you an idea or did you know from 14 some other source what concerns were being 15 discussed in the literature concerning ignition 16 propensity? 17 A. Probably questions related to whether or not 18 you could make a cigarette that was somehow less 19 likely to cause ignitions. 20 Q. When you were assigned a project, what is the 21 first aspect of the project that you undertook? 22 A. I reviewed literature that Henry supplied. We 23 started looking at fabrics and tried to determine a 24 test method. 25 Q. I'm sorry? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 17 1 A. We tried to determine a test method. 2 Q. Okay. In what form did Henry Merritt supply 3 literature to you for your study to get you ready 4 for the project? 5 A. Oh, he probably gave me articles. I'm vague. 6 I don't remember. 7 Q. Do you recall him giving you any patent 8 history information concerning patents on fire-safe 9 cigarettes? 10 A. Probably, probably. Or I may have gone and 11 done that myself. 12 Q. Once you were assigned the project, had the 13 objectives or goals of the project already been 14 defined? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Do you recall having any input in the creation 17 or establishment of the goals or objectives of the 18 project? 19 A. Yeah, to some extent I did. 20 Q. Do you recall today what the objectives of 21 Project Hamlet were? 22 A. Initially, test methodology. 23 Q. I'm sorry? 24 A. Test methodology. 25 Q. Establishing a test methodology -- MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 18 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. -- for ignition propensity? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Was an objective of Project Hamlet the 5 development of a cigarette that would 6 self-extinguish? 7 A. Possibly. 8 Q. Did Henry Merritt or anyone else at Philip 9 Morris ever describe to you the hope to develop a 10 self-extinguishing cigarette as a shelf item? 11 A. The goal of development is not necessarily to 12 develop a shelf item. It's develop a marketable 13 product. 14 Q. With respect to Project Hamlet, were you given 15 any information from anyone else at Philip Morris 16 that indicated to you that a self-extinguishing 17 cigarette would be a shelf item? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Were you given any indication that there was a 20 desire to create a marketable product with the 21 self-extinguishing cigarette? 22 A. Within my department, that was everybody's 23 goal. 24 Q. Mr. Greene, I'd like to show you a document on 25 videotape because I don't have it in a hard format MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 19 1 to ask you if you have seen the particular 2 document. 3 A. Sure. 4 Q. So it might -- 5 MR. CRAMPTON: How do you have a 6 document in a videotape? 7 MR. GRISHAM: I have it off of 8 television. 9 MR. CRAMPTON: Well, okay. We can take 10 a look. I may object. 11 MR. GRISHAM: Sure. Okay. 12 MR. BRADEN: Why don't you go off the 13 record, let's look at it and see what it is. 14 MR. GRISHAM: Yeah. 15 (Brief recess.) 16 (Greene Exhibit No. 2 was 17 marked for identification.) 18 MR. GRISHAM: After we took a break, we 19 indeed found that we have a copy of the memo which 20 we intended to show on videotape, and we've copied 21 that down. Thank you for your assistance. 22 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Greene, let me hand you 23 what's been marked as Exhibit No. 2, ask you if 24 you've seen that document before? 25 A. I've only seen this document in the course of MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 20 1 a previous deposition. 2 Q. How many times have you given a deposition 3 before? 4 A. Once. 5 Q. Was that in the Kearney case -- pardon me, the 6 Hamilton case? 7 A. I believe. 8 Q. You believe it was in the Hamilton case? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. How long ago was that? 11 A. About eight years maybe. 12 Q. And what you're telling me is, in the course 13 of that deposition you were shown that document by 14 one of the lawyers involved in the case? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. Prior to seeing the document about eight years 17 ago in the course of a deposition, had you ever 18 seen it before? 19 A. I don't believe so. 20 Q. May I see it? I'll hand it back and forth 21 between us, if need be. 22 A. (Witness complies). 23 Q. Exhibit No. 2 purports to bear a date of 24 September 4th, 1979; and you were employed at 25 Philip Morris on that date, during that era, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 21 1 correct? 2 A. Yes, I was. 3 Q. It purports to be directed to a Dr. R.B. 4 Seligman. Do you know who that individual is? 5 A. Yes. Dr. Seligman was at one point director 6 of the Research Center. 7 Q. Do you know his whereabouts today? 8 A. No, I don't. 9 Q. It purports to be from a W.F. Gannon, which I 10 think we've established earlier was Walt Gannon, 11 who you are familiar with, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you know in 1979 what position Mr. Gannon 14 held with the company? 15 A. I believe that he was director of Product 16 Development. 17 Q. With respect to the self-extinguishing 18 cigarette and any project surrounding that 19 potential product, do you ever recall hearing 20 anyone at Philip Morris use language to the effect 21 of producing an item, a shelf item? 22 A. I don't recall that, no. 23 Q. Do you recall being present at or hearing or 24 receiving information from an oral presentation 25 from Henry Merritt concerning the situation? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 22 1 A. No. 2 Q. Involving the fire-safe or self-extinguishing 3 cigarette? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Do you know if, in fact, such an oral 6 presentation ever occurred? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. Do you know Mr. Gannon's whereabouts today? 9 A. Not directly. I believe he's in Richmond, but 10 I really don't know. 11 Q. Is he retired? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you have a copy of the deposition 14 transcript from the Hamilton deposition? 15 A. No, I do not. 16 Q. Have you ever testified at trial or before any 17 governing body before? 18 A. Other than the deposition, no. 19 Q. I'd like to redirect your attention back to 20 the time that you were assigned your involvement 21 with Project Hamlet. We were talking about some of 22 the objectives, and you've described an objective 23 that you were made aware of to create a test 24 methodology for ignition propensity, correct? 25 A. Yes. That was our goal. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 23 1 Q. Other than developing or attempting to develop 2 a test for ignition propensity, did you also work 3 in the areas of testing particular prototypes for 4 ignition propensity qualities? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did you eventually create a measurement of 7 ignition propensity? 8 A. We created a measurement that we felt, in some 9 way, might be able to discern some differences in a 10 very limited sense. 11 Q. Differences in the ignition propensity of 12 commercial cigarettes? 13 A. Differences among cigarettes in general. 14 Q. Were the differences that you were seeking to 15 discern, differences in ignition propensity, or are 16 you referring to different designs that you were 17 testing? 18 A. We would like to have looked at ignition 19 propensity as a global thing, but the best you can 20 do in science is try and make a thing which tells 21 you something and hope that it relates in some kind 22 of way. 23 Q. Tell me about the ignition propensity index. 24 A. It was a test that we developed to try and see 25 if there was really a difference among cigarettes. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 24 1 Q. Were you instrumental in developing that test? 2 A. Yes, I was. 3 Q. And setting forth the protocol for the 4 procedures and things of that nature? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. About when was the ignition propensity index 7 established? 8 A. I don't remember. 9 Q. Was it a valuable test? 10 A. It showed some -- that you could see some 11 differences under certain conditions. 12 Q. What sort of differences? 13 A. You could see differences in the time it took 14 to get glowing combustion on a piece of fabric. 15 Q. Was the measure of the time to ignition an 16 important factor to be able to establish in 17 attempting to create a self-extinguishing 18 cigarette? 19 A. Could you say that again, please? 20 Q. Yes. Is the time to ignition a quality that 21 was important to your research project in 22 establishing ultimately a low ignition propensity 23 cigarette? 24 A. Well, I don't necessarily believe we've been 25 able to build a low ignition propensity cigarette. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 25 1 But you start where you start, and you go with what 2 you can figure out. 3 Q. Sure. My question was more directed towards 4 the goal of developing a low ignition propensity 5 cigarette. What I was hoping to find out is if you 6 believe that the concept of measuring the time to 7 ignition of a cigarette translates into a valuable 8 test for determining the ignition propensity of 9 cigarettes? 10 A. Does the goal -- 11 Q. Yeah, that's a long one. 12 A. Yeah. That's a run-on sentence. Okay. I 13 thought it was a good goal. 14 Q. In terms of the goal of creating a low 15 ignition propensity cigarette, was the aspect of 16 ignition time span an important factor? 17 A. It was a factor. I don't know how to weight 18 its importance. 19 Q. Why was that a factor in the goal of 20 developing an ignition -- low ignition propensity 21 cigarette? 22 A. Only thing we could think of to measure. 23 Q. Was there a correlation between the burn 24 temperature of the test cigarettes in manipulating 25 time to ignition during the course of your research MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 26 1 and study? 2 A. I don't think we really could look at that. 3 Q. What is the range of temperatures of heat 4 generated from a burning cigarette does one see in 5 a commercial brand? 6 A. Under what conditions? 7 Q. Under both puff conditions and idle rest 8 conditions in air. 9 A. It's been a while since I've looked at any of 10 those numbers. I would believe, under what we call 11 static burn conditions, the coal temperature would 12 be about 600 degrees centigrade. Under puffing, 13 900. 14 Q. So the ignition propensity index that you 15 developed contained a factor, and that was time to 16 ignition; but that was one factor, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And there were other factors that also went 19 into the measure of or the quantification of burn 20 propensity through that index, correct? 21 A. That was a very specific test, almost pushed 22 to the limits to try and discern a difference among 23 cigarettes. It was very limited applicability to 24 anything other than itself. 25 Q. Besides the time to ignition component of the MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 27 1 index, what other components were there? 2 A. I don't understand. Like what? 3 Q. In terms of establishing the index, it was my 4 belief that there were different components, 5 different measurements, that when combined, one 6 could use to establish a score on the index? 7 A. I -- the test was placing cigarettes down and 8 seeing how long it took. We would test it -- we 9 would pull all the cigarettes up at one minute and 10 see if there was glowing ignition anywhere. 11 At two minutes, we'd take another set of 12 cigarettes and do two minutes and so on and just 13 mathematically average that out. 14 Q. Okay. Well, that explains what I was asking. 15 It was a mathematical average of times to ignition 16 essentially? 17 A. To glowing combustion on that substrate, yeah, 18 on the fabric. 19 Q. And the substrate that was being used in the 20 test protocol on the mock-up in Hamlet was 21 polyurethane foam? 22 A. Oh, I don't think of the foam as the 23 substrate. I think of the fabric as the 24 substrate. It was backed with high-density 25 polyurethane foam. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 28 1 Q. What was -- was a velvet material used as the 2 substrate? 3 A. It was cotton fabric, upholstery fabric. 4 Q. 100 percent cotton? 5 A. Oh, I guess. It's been a long time. I 6 suppose it was. 7 Q. During the course of the Hamlet project or 8 your involvement with the Hamlet project and the 9 testing of different designs on the mock-up -- 10 A. Different cigarette designs? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. -- I assume that data was gathered concerning 14 the characteristics of the cigarette design with 15 that particular test? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How was that data stored? 18 A. On paper and on computer. 19 Q. How was it stored on computer? 20 A. The data about the physical design of the 21 cigarettes? 22 Q. And the scoring or test results. 23 A. In ASCII files. 24 Q. Who is the custodian of those files today? 25 A. I don't know that those files still exist. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 29 1 Q. Who is the custodian of the paper files? 2 A. It would be Barbro Goodman. I would assume. 3 That's who I left it with. 4 Q. Are the paper files when you left them, were 5 they at the laboratory at the Research & 6 Development building? 7 A. Yeah. In one of the buildings, yeah, in the 8 lab. 9 Q. What sort of test result data was stored as 10 you conducted your series of tests in Hamlet? 11 A. I generally stored information relating to the 12 physical characteristics of the cigarette. It's 13 tobacco weight, what kind of paper was put on and 14 so on. 15 Q. In terms of burn test results, what was 16 stored? 17 A. I don't know that I ever stored burn test 18 results. If they were there, they were maybe 19 related to memos that were produced, that sort of 20 thing, but... 21 Q. How often would you or your project or 22 department, with respect to the Hamlet project, 23 make reports concerning the progress of the 24 project? 25 A. I would -- I would vaguely say about monthly. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 30 1 Q. During the course of the Hamlet testing of the 2 burning cigarettes on substrate, what was the range 3 of times that you personally witnessed cigarettes 4 smolder before ignition was reached? 5 A. We had a variety of results. There were 6 certainly cases where on the tests cigarettes 7 caused an ignition before one minute. There were 8 situations where cigarettes would cause ignition at 9 five minutes. 10 What you're looking at is a weighted average 11 of a lot of cigarettes. To come up with the 12 I.P.I., you're maybe looking at 200 cigarettes. 13 You know, it's a lot of stuff. So there were a 14 variety of numbers that we produced anywhere from 15 one minute to ten minutes. 16 Q. Did you, in laboratory conditions such as I've 17 described with the mock-up we've talked about, 18 witness cigarettes that would smolder before 19 ignition for 45 minutes to an hour? 20 A. No. I never took anything out that far. If 21 it didn't cause ignition in ten minutes, we didn't 22 bother going further. 23 MR. CRAMPTON: Just so we're clear, 24 you're talking about the cigarette smoldering 25 before smoldering ignition of the fabric, or are MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 31 1 you talking about smoldering of the fabric for 45 2 minutes? 3 MR. GRISHAM: Smoldering of the 4 cigarette before ignition of the substrate. 5 MR. CRAMPTON: That's the way you 6 understood the question, isn't it? 7 A. Yeah. We put the cigarette in contact with 8 the fabric and we let it go, and it's not going to 9 burn more than ten minutes because by then the 10 cigarette's burned up. 11 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Did you witness any 12 situations in the laboratory where smolder of the 13 fabric or substrate--so that we're using the same 14 terminology--would last for upwards to 45 minutes 15 to an hour before ignition? 16 MR. CRAMPTON: When you say "ignition" 17 there, you're talking about making a transition to 18 flaming ignition? 19 MR. GRISHAM: Sure. 20 MR. CRAMPTON: Because when he says 21 "ignition," he means smolder. So you're talking 22 about smoldering until something more than that? 23 A. Yeah, and that's an excellent point. What we 24 are looking for was smoldering burn of the fabric. 25 Once it started smoldering, we put it out. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 32 1 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Right. The test was 2 completed at that point? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And what you're saying is that by 10 minutes 5 the cigarette had burned to the length of its rod, 6 and if no ignition of the fabric had occurred, then 7 the test was over then as well? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Were any tests conducted whereby the length of 10 time before ignition of the substrate was taken out 11 to 45 minutes to an hour? 12 A. No. That's -- it was not practical. 13 Q. Why was it not practical? 14 A. Well, it's not practical because if you're 15 going to have an ignition, it's going to happen 16 within a fairly reasonable length of time. You 17 only have a certain length of rod, and when the 18 rod's used up, the rod's used up. 19 Once you've got ignition of the -- I'm 20 sorry, smoldering burn in the fabric itself, we 21 weren't trying to test the fabrics, per se. 22 Q. That was my next question. As a part of the 23 Hamlet studies then, you were not looking at and 24 did not study the length of time after ignition of 25 the fabric but before the smolder turned into MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 33 1 flames? 2 A. Oh, no, we never -- no. 3 Q. Were you ever present during or did you 4 conduct crevice testing? 5 A. We tried crevice testing early on in our 6 methodology. It was simply too complex an issue to 7 model. I mean, there's just no way to know that 8 you have the same amount of pressure each time, the 9 same depth -- it's too many variables. It was just 10 too hard to do. 11 Q. Can you explain to me how a burning cigarette 12 when laid upon a fabric substrate causes ignition? 13 A. I don't think I know that. 14 Q. Tell me what you do know about it and what the 15 unknowns are in the equation. 16 A. When a -- on our tests when a cigarette is 17 placed in contact with the fabric, there's an 18 unknown effect from the amount of pressure that the 19 technician uses in placing the cigarette 20 there--couldn't quantify that. Therefore, there's 21 an aspect here of contact between the cigarette and 22 the fabric that is unmeasurable. We don't have a 23 way to measure. 24 Then there are a dozen -- just hundreds and 25 hundreds of other factors that could probably play MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 34 1 a role in how well the test performed. One could 2 make an argument for whether or not there was 3 oxygen coming from the bottom of the test 4 apparatus. Just -- there are so many 5 possibilities, I don't know how to -- how to even 6 begin to list them all and enumerate them all. 7 Q. Were there any prototypical cigarette designs 8 during the course of the Hamlet studies that in 9 laboratory conditions you believe tended to show a 10 reduced ignition propensity to the mock-up? 11 A. You mean a reduced ignition propensity index 12 number, i.e., a bigger number? 13 Q. Higher number, yes. 14 A. Sure. 15 Q. What were the designs that reflected a higher 16 index number or, thus, a lower tendency to ignite? 17 A. There were a lot of design parameters that on 18 a single test showed a difference. And I could 19 give you a list of things, but I don't -- I would 20 really hesitate to think that they were 21 exhaustive. There were tendencies for paper that 22 burned slower to take a longer time to ignition. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. That's a -- as an example, that -- you don't 25 know if that's meaningful or not. I doubt that MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 35 1 that translates to much of anything in the real 2 world. 3 There were tests where a smaller 4 circumference, for example, might have taken longer 5 than a larger circumference. Although, when you 6 talk about any change to the cigarette -- to the 7 system that is represented by the cigarette, you 8 have to keep in mind that there is no way to change 9 a single variable. 10 Cigarettes that are smaller in circumference 11 are smaller in weight -- I mean, lower in weight 12 and a whole lot of other factors. So it's hard to 13 say that a given parameter does something as 14 opposed to this particular model with this kind of 15 configuration having a longer time on a very 16 specific test. 17 Q. This may go back to what we were talking about 18 earlier. Why was time to ignition something that 19 you focused on? I know you said it was all you 20 could think of to measure, but why was that 21 important within the overall objective of creating 22 a reduced ignition propensity cigarette? 23 A. It was all I could measure. And additionally, 24 it was something that had appeared in the 25 literature at the time as a factor that other MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 36 1 people thought was important. 2 Q. Sitting here today, do you think that the time 3 to ignition is an important factor in the study of 4 the design of reduced ignition propensity 5 cigarettes? 6 A. I think that is one of a lot of variables and 7 it's certainly the easiest to measure. Whether 8 it's the most critical or not, I couldn't tell you. 9 Q. Do you believe that that -- the concept of 10 reduced ignition time translates into a safer 11 cigarette in the real world? 12 A. Couldn't tell you that. 13 MR. CRAMPTON: I think you meant 14 increased ignition time. 15 MR. GRISHAM: Did I say -- 16 MR. CRAMPTON: Increased ignition time. 17 MR. GRISHAM: Okay. Thanks for 18 pointing that out. 19 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) What I meant to ask you and 20 I thought maybe you and I were on the same plane, 21 but to make sure, do you believe that a cigarette 22 with a higher ignition propensity index number, in 23 other words, a longer -- 24 A. Higher number. 25 Q. Higher number, longer period of time to ignite MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 37 1 translates into a safer cigarette in the real 2 world? 3 A. I couldn't tell you that. 4 Q. We were talking about paper burn rate as being 5 something that was looked at, smaller circumference 6 that you remember creating a higher ignition 7 propensity number in the lab. What other design 8 parameters do you recall creating a higher number 9 and, thus, a less ignition prone cigarette? 10 MR. CRAMPTON: Object to the form of 11 the question to the extent you said "and thus a 12 less ignition prone cigarette." 13 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Well, just so we're clear, I 14 understood you were telling me earlier that in the 15 course of your studies there were certain types of 16 cigarettes that had higher ignition propensity 17 index numbers, correct? 18 A. I remember higher numbers, yes. 19 Q. And the higher numbers were the result of 20 tests wherein the cigarette showed lesser 21 propensity to ignite substrate? 22 A. You know, that's not actually what that says. 23 Q. Okay. Tell me what it says. 24 A. What that says is we've got a number that -- 25 that shows how long this mock-up took under these MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 38 1 conditions to ignite that piece of fabric. How 2 long does not mean how likely it is. It is 3 conceivable that a cigarette might take a long time 4 but be 100 percent igniting, where another 5 cigarette might be very short time but only a few 6 of them light. I mean, so that's the quandary 7 there. 8 Q. That being the case, why was that the focus of 9 study under the objective of creating a cigarette 10 that would self-extinguish? 11 A. Best test method I had at the time. That's 12 all I could come up with. 13 Q. Do you know whether a slower burning paper 14 translates into a safer cigarette in the real 15 world? 16 A. No. 17 Q. You don't know, or the answer's no? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Do you believe that a smaller circumference 20 cigarette translates into a safer cigarette in the 21 real world? 22 A. Do I personally believe that? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. No. 25 Q. Why? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 39 1 A. The conditions in the real world are so 2 complex. There are things that you could do that 3 would help in one situation and probably hurt you 4 in another situation. 5 Q. Do you believe that in the real world 6 environment a smaller circumference cigarette is 7 likely to increase the number of ignitions? 8 A. I can't tell you that. I don't know. 9 MR. CRAMPTON: You can ask it again. 10 If you've already asked it, it's all right. 11 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Are there circumstances, in 12 your opinion, under real world environmental 13 situations wherein you believe that the smaller 14 circumference cigarette would be more prone to 15 cause fires? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. In the course of your studies and 18 investigations with Hamlet, did you look at tobacco 19 blend as a factor in reducing cigarette ignition 20 propensity? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What were your findings, as a result of those 23 studies? 24 MR. CRAMPTON: By "ignition 25 propensity," you're talking about the index now? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 40 1 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Ignition propensity in 2 general within the realm of the Hamlet project? 3 A. I can't tell you about ignition propensity in 4 general. I can tell you about the index number. 5 Q. Okay. Did Hamlet involve anything more than 6 testing the length of ignition of specifically 7 designed prototypes? 8 A. For example? I don't -- 9 Q. Likelihood of ignition. 10 A. The likelihood of ignition? 11 Q. In other words, what I think I hear you saying 12 is, look, I can't tell you anything about Hamlet 13 except the ignition propensity index in terms of 14 what you're asking me? 15 A. I can't say anything about the real world. 16 The real world is an extremely large and complex 17 system. I can tell you what we did on our tests 18 and then what I can remember from 17 years ago. 19 Q. I understand. And you're doing a very good 20 job. What I'm trying to get to is understanding 21 that today you're not going to be able to tell me 22 about and you just don't know about the effect of 23 ignition propensity characteristics in the real 24 world environment? 25 A. That's very correct. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 41 1 Q. I know that, and so I'm going to try to 2 confine my questions to the work that you did in 3 Hamlet, which I understood dealt with a mock-up? 4 A. That's -- yes. 5 Q. And that mock-up was a -- consisted of various 6 fabric coverings over polyurethane foam, correct? 7 A. Actually a fabric over polyurethane foam, yes. 8 Q. What was that fabric, a velvet? 9 A. A cotton cloth. It had a velvet texture on 10 the top, but we characterized it as a cotton cloth 11 as opposed to velvet. 12 Q. And in the course of performing the studies on 13 this mock-up, I know that you developed this 14 ignition propensity index and it provides a score? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Other than the results of the testing 17 providing you the score, can you tell me other 18 characteristics of the different designs in terms 19 of their performance on the mock-up? 20 A. When we performed tests on parameters, on 21 variables about the cigarette, we attempted to look 22 at 100 percent blends--blends that were composed of 23 all one type of tobacco. 24 We attempted to modify most everything we 25 could think of to modify about the cigarette at one MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 42 1 time or another and try those singly and look and 2 see whether there was a big difference in the 3 index. 4 Q. Were there any particular design 5 characteristics of any of the prototypes that you 6 tested that consistently provided high ignition 7 propensity index numbers? 8 A. There were some trends probably. 9 Q. Okay. Can you tell me what those trends 10 consisted of? 11 A. No. I would have to refer to documentation 12 from that era. It's been a long time. 13 Q. All right. I can appreciate that. We'll go 14 through some of them here in a moment. 15 Have you worked on Project Tomorrow? 16 A. No, I have not. 17 Q. Do you recall any particular commercial brands 18 of cigarettes that were tested on the mock-up as a 19 part of Hamlet? 20 A. Yes, yes, we did test commercial brands. 21 Q. Of the commercial products that you recall 22 conducting tests on, were there any commercial 23 products that tended to show a trend of exhibiting 24 high ignition propensity index numbers? 25 A. Yeah, yeah. There were -- there were some. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 43 1 That was the design -- I mean, that was the 2 criteria for designing the test. 3 Q. Okay. Do you recall what commercial brands 4 tended to show high -- tended to show a trend of 5 high ignition propensity index numbers? 6 A. I believe in our first testing we identified 7 the More as being a higher number most of the time, 8 and Nat Sherman's brands as being a higher number. 9 Q. Now, the More cigarette back during the 1970's 10 was a domestic cigarette, correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Who manufactured that? 13 A. R.J. Reynolds. 14 Q. Were there characteristics about the More 15 during that testing that your team felt like 16 created those higher I.P. index numbers? 17 A. We certainly identified that the paper was 18 unusual. It's brown, among other things. It's 19 maybe on the less porous end of the commercial 20 cigarette range. We can't know much about the 21 blend, so we couldn't do anything with that. 22 Q. Was the circumference of the More cigarette 23 slimmer? 24 A. Yes, it was. It's also a longer cigarette, 25 which has an effect on that test. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 44 1 Q. Generally what is the effect of a longer 2 cigarette on the ignition propensity index test? 3 A. It makes it tougher to obtain a number because 4 it's tougher to make sure that you're reliably 5 putting the cigarette in the same geometry each 6 time. It just makes life harder. 7 Q. Was the More, during the course of that 8 testing, an 85 millimeter, 100 millimeter, 120 9 millimeter cigarette? 10 A. Best of my recollection, it was 120. I don't 11 keep up with them very much. 12 Q. The Nat Sherman brand is a European brand of 13 cigarette, correct? 14 A. I believe it's manufactured in the United 15 States. 16 Q. Oh, is it? Okay. Who manufactures it? 17 A. I'm sorry, Nat Sherman. It's a little shop in 18 New York. They're novelty cigarettes. 19 Q. What do you mean by "novelty cigarettes"? 20 A. The number of cigarettes sold per year at that 21 time was exceedingly small. They're for parties 22 and special occasions. They're, you know, bright 23 colors and all kinds of strange things on them. 24 Q. Did you identify what with the Nat Sherman 25 tended to show these higher I.P. index numbers? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 45 1 A. You're asking what about the Nat Sherman 2 caused the index number to be higher? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Well, certainly we're not sure of everything 5 about it. The entire cigarette was just very 6 different than normal. Additionally, a commercial 7 brand is manufactured with some quality-control 8 restrictions to them that, you know, we try and 9 manufacture the same kind of thing each time. 10 My understanding was Nat Sherman's a little 11 shop with a little maker in the back and he gets 12 cigarette papers from random sources and tobacco 13 from random sources, and he makes a run and makes 14 up a bunch of cigarettes. 15 So I -- the paper, I don't believe, was what 16 we consider normal cigarette paper. It's been a 17 long time since I played with those -- with that 18 information. But the paper tended to be less 19 porous in some cases. It varied widely. It had 20 very strong dyes in there that I generally would 21 not like to see on a product consumed. 22 My understanding was he didn't have any, 23 what we call, after-cut flavors or anything on his 24 cigarettes. So there are a variety of things about 25 his cigarettes that were very unusual. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 46 1 Q. What about the characteristics did you or your 2 project team believe created the higher I.P. index 3 numbers? The less porous paper, I thought you 4 mentioned a moment ago? 5 A. Yeah. The cigarettes tended to just go out on 6 their own. That, again, varied widely. I believe 7 that those dyes on that paper were very strange 8 things, and that certainly could have contributed 9 to their performance. 10 Additionally, those were also very long 11 cigarettes. And, again, your ability to be in 12 contact -- you know, it's impossible to get the 13 fabric entirely flat. You know, the geometry is 14 just tough to handle on those long cigarettes. 15 Q. With respect to the ignition propensity scale 16 that you developed, the high end of the scale was 17 10-1/2 minutes, correct? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Why 10-1/2 minutes? Is that the length of 20 time it takes a cigarette to burn to the end? 21 A. On average. 22 Q. And is that the reason for picking that as the 23 top of the scale? 24 A. Yeah. Nothing came close, so that seemed like 25 a good cutoff point. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 47 1 Q. Did most commercial cigarettes that were 2 tested during Project Hamlet fall within the one to 3 two-and-a-half minute time frame for time to 4 ignition? 5 A. I'd hate to answer that. I don't remember the 6 specific numbers. Our goal was to test until they 7 all either caused ignition or they all 8 self-extinguished. 9 Q. And you took a weighted average of all of one 10 type of cigarette or one prototype? 11 A. Well, of one -- you're talking about 12 commercial brands? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. Yeah. Oh, yeah, sure. 15 Q. Sure. Whether you were testing commercial 16 brands or a prototype that you wanted to look at, 17 it's my understanding what you did is you had a 18 certain number run or you got a certain number of 19 the commercial competitor brands and you might test 20 200 cigarettes, and you took an average of those to 21 arrive at your index number? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Was 200 a fairly typical number to run a test 24 on? 25 A. It depended on the performance of the MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 48 1 cigarette. 2 Q. How so? 3 A. I don't remember how many times we would 4 repeat the test. That's -- but if all five or all 5 ten of your cigarettes caused ignition in one 6 minute, there was no point in putting all ten of 7 them for two minutes and so on. So there were 8 certainly situations where cigarettes would -- 9 where we wouldn't have to run 200 cigarettes in 10 order to get a weighted average number. 11 Q. Did Project Hamlet continue after you left in 12 1986 to go into the computer application aspect? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. How long did it continue? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Did a particular person undertake the duties 17 that you had been assigned while -- 18 A. Barbro Goodman pretty much took them over. 19 Q. Okay. During the course of the 11-year 20 period, roughly, that you worked on Hamlet from 21 1975 to '86, was the entire period of time used to 22 burn different cigarette designs and assign an 23 ignition propensity index number to them? 24 A. No. I didn't work on Hamlet for that period 25 of time. I roughly started in 1980. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 49 1 Q. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. You started your 2 employment with Philip Morris in '75? 3 A. In '75, that's right. 4 Q. Okay. Let me rephrase the question then. 5 From 1980, roughly, until '86 when you moved on to 6 computer applications, was the course of your work 7 on Hamlet to do just what you've described--that 8 is, performed ignition propensity index testing on 9 cigarettes; in other words, burn them and assign a 10 number to them for that six-year period? 11 A. No. We did a variety of things. 12 Q. Tell me some of the -- tell me, to the best of 13 your ability, the other things that you did. 14 A. Well, we worked on methodology a lot. We 15 worked also on trying to examine what kind of 16 factors about the fabric made them different. And 17 certainly we worked on trying to find ways, 18 patentable ways, of making -- making a cigarette 19 that performed better. 20 Q. During the course of your research in Hamlet, 21 did you identify fabric factors that you felt like 22 played a role in ignition propensity? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What were those factors? 25 A. The geometry of the fabric itself. Fabrics MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 50 1 come in a variety of weave patterns and so on. We 2 certainly saw differences there. The type of 3 fabric used itself, whether it be cotton or 4 polyester or nylon or so on. And, in particular, 5 the salts in the fabric itself. Simply washing a 6 fabric makes it resistant to, you know, ignition to 7 the glowing smoldering burn. 8 Q. In addition to removing the salts, what -- 9 what about the geometry of the fabrics did you find 10 made them less prone to ignition? 11 A. We had fabrics that were lumpy, you know, odd 12 shape, so on. That means it's hard to be in 13 contact unless you change the angle. So those were 14 difficult to use on our tests. And I imagine the 15 coarseness of the weave had some impact. 16 I'm vague as to the details of that. It's 17 been a long time. 18 Q. What about the fabric type did you find 19 created a reduced ignition propensity? 20 A. The fabric type? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. You mean cotton as opposed to a synthetic 23 or -- 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. I don't remember. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 51 1 Q. As you sit here today, do you believe that 2 cotton-type fabrics are more prone to ignition than 3 the synthetic? 4 A. That's -- I don't think I could reliably make 5 a judgment on that. I know polyesters tend to melt 6 but... 7 MR. GRISHAM: Is this a good time for a 8 break? 9 MR. CRAMPTON: Yeah, sure. 10 (Brief recess.) 11 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Greene, are you familiar 12 with a program at Philip Morris called the Rod 13 Density Program or, perhaps, the Reduced Rod 14 Density Program? 15 A. I've heard of it. 16 Q. Do you know what it is or was? 17 A. I don't know the details. We're taxed by 18 tobacco weight in some countries. And my feeling 19 is it's a method of making sure the taxes are low. 20 Q. During the course of your work on Hamlet, did 21 you pursue any computer modeling in terms of test 22 methodology? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you work on computer modeling in any 25 aspect of ignition propensity studies? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 52 1 A. No, not directly. 2 Q. Did others work on computer modeling that 3 you're aware of with respect to ignition propensity 4 studies? 5 A. I'm not aware of it. 6 (Brief interruption.) 7 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Greene, are you aware of 8 any computer modeling at Philip Morris dealing with 9 the study of self-extinguishing cigarettes? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Are you aware of any computer modeling dealing 12 with the subject of fire-safe cigarettes? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did any of the investigation or research or 15 study that you engaged in or have engaged in while 16 employed at Philip Morris deal with the commercial 17 feasibility of alternate design cigarettes? 18 A. I don't -- alternate as opposed to the regular 19 commercial brands? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. I looked at brown paper cigarettes as an 22 alternative to white paper cigarettes. I'm sure 23 I've done other things. 24 Q. In terms of the commercial feasibility of a 25 reduced ignition propensity cigarette, did you look MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 53 1 at that aspect of marketing? 2 A. No. I'm not involved with marketing. 3 Q. Did any part of your studies or investigation 4 or research on ignition propensities deal with 5 commercial feasibility? 6 A. No. That's not my area. 7 Q. Did any part of your studies or investigation 8 deal with flavoring or aesthetics? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. How so? 11 A. Aesthetics, in particular -- in paper 12 modification, one of the things that you're 13 interested in is the appearance of the paper. 14 Q. What was the goal or objective in terms of the 15 design parameters with respect to creating 16 something with a high ignition propensity index, 17 but would come close to what was commercially 18 available on the market? Were there particular 19 goals? 20 A. It would -- if there was a goal, it was to 21 make sure that the -- anything that we came up 22 with, the consumer would find acceptable and smoke. 23 Q. In order to achieve that aspect of the goal, 24 were you attempting to replicate what was already 25 on the market in terms of flavor and aesthetics, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 54 1 delivery, aftertaste, grab, things of that nature? 2 A. That would probably generally be a goal, yeah. 3 Q. As a part of your studies in Hamlet, did you 4 look at the aspect of puff count? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Why was that relevant to your studies or 7 important to you in your studies? 8 A. Puff count is a physical characteristic of the 9 cigarette. 10 Q. With respect to a commercial brand cigarette 11 right off the shelf, what is the typical range of 12 puff counts? 13 A. We test puff count under the F.T.C. method, 14 and I believe cigarettes usually fall around 15 8 puffs to 12 puffs. It varies from brand to 16 brand. 17 Q. In the course of your investigations with 18 Hamlet, did you see a trend whereby when the 19 porosity of the paper was altered to make it less 20 porous, the puff count tended to go up? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Was that concern or that situation ever 23 rectified? 24 A. I'm sorry, was the physical -- you're asking 25 if you can decouple puff count and porosity? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 55 1 Q. Perhaps, yes. 2 MR. CRAMPTON: Let's just -- you want 3 to take the television out? 4 (Brief interruption.) 5 A. No, I don't -- I really don't think you can 6 decouple the two very well. 7 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Do you recall any cigarette 8 design, either in a prototypical sense or 9 otherwise, that was tested in Hamlet that created a 10 high ignition propensity index number, yet had an 11 acceptable puff count? 12 A. I couldn't remember those kind of details, no. 13 Q. Do you recall during the course of your work 14 at Philip Morris any testing being done on the 15 ignition qualities of cigarettes within 16 automobiles? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you recall any testing having been done on 19 the ignition propensity of Philip Morris' own 20 commercial brands? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Was the amount of work or resources directed 23 towards the work at Hamlet associated in any 24 fashion with the amount of government activity 25 related to the Fire-Safe Cigarette Act? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 56 1 A. No. 2 Q. In the course of your work with ignition 3 propensities, did you on occasion go to the 4 literature and study the art and pick out 5 particular patents to test? 6 A. Yes. We looked at -- we looked at patent 7 history. 8 Q. Do you recall what the earliest dated 9 fire-safe cigarette patent is? 10 A. No, I don't recall. I'm sure it's very old. 11 Q. Up until the time that you completed your work 12 with Project Hamlet, do you recall how many 13 fire-safe or reduced ignition propensity cigarette 14 patents were registered? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Would it have been in the hundreds? 17 A. I have no idea. 18 Q. Have you ever had any idea patented? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Tell me what patents you've been granted. 21 A. I have a patent for a brown cigarette dye for 22 cigarette papers, and I have another patent for a 23 method of measuring sidestream smoke. 24 Q. What was the benefit of the brown dye patent? 25 What did it offer as a unique quality? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 57 1 A. It did not contain azo dyes, which are in the 2 More cigarette. And the carbon monoxide delivery 3 of that cigarette was more in line with normal 4 cigarettes. 5 Q. Has that brown dye been used commercially? 6 A. No. 7 Q. In the course of your sidestream smoke 8 studies, did you find any effect on ignition 9 propensities of the cigarettes? 10 A. I did not conduct sidestream smoke studies. 11 Q. What sort of patent did you -- were you 12 granted on the sidestream smoke-type product? 13 A. It was with a group of people and what we did 14 was we developed an apparatus that would measure 15 light scattering of sidestream smoke. 16 Q. What is a Greiner machine? 17 A. Greiner is a company that manufactured a 18 machine that purported to measure cigarette paper 19 porosity, how porous the paper is. 20 Q. Did it work by measuring the amount or the 21 length of time it would take to draw a certain 22 volume of air through a certain size tube? 23 A. Through a certain square area of paper, yes. 24 Q. Is that measure something that's still in use 25 in ignition propensity research? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 58 1 A. That measure is generally not in use within 2 the industry any longer. 3 Q. Is the CORESTA measure what is used today? 4 A. Yes, there is a CORESTA permeability 5 measurement today. 6 Q. Have you worked on Project CORESTA? 7 A. Project CORESTA? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. Sorry, I've not ever -- 10 Q. Or the CORESTA -- I hesitate to use Joint 11 Venture because that's another -- 12 MR. CRAMPTON: Task force. 13 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Task force? 14 A. CORESTA is an international agency, and no, I 15 don't work with them directly. I've never really 16 worked with them. I've been to one CORESTA meeting 17 in my life, so. 18 Q. Have you worked on the Joint Venture? 19 A. Joint Venture? 20 Q. I guess you haven't. Dealing with ignition 21 propensity studies? 22 A. No, I have not. 23 Q. Have you served on any advisory board for the 24 -- any governmental agency on the issues of 25 ignition propensity? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 59 1 A. No, I have not. 2 Q. Have you published any papers or treatises or 3 any sort of learned document? 4 A. On ignition propensity? 5 Q. Well, just generally, first. 6 A. No. I'm not much into publishing, although I 7 have a lot of memos. I presented a paper in my 8 undergraduate days at a research conference. 9 Q. Mr. Greene, I want to hand you what's been 10 marked as Exhibit No. 1, which is a copy of Amended 11 Notice of Deposition Duces Tecum. I want to hand 12 you this and ask you to review, particularly, the 13 numbered components on page 2 where we asked for 14 you to bring documents. 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Do you have any documents with you today that 17 fall within any of the three categories on Exhibit 18 2 -- Exhibit 1? 19 A. No, I do not. 20 Q. Do you maintain copies of those documents in 21 any fashion? 22 A. No, I do not. 23 Q. Are they maintained at a specific location at 24 Philip Morris U.S.A. that you're aware of? 25 A. I do not know what Barbro has. Everything we MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 60 1 have is in central files, if it's a document 2 generated at the Research Center. 3 Q. Do you know who the custodian of records is at 4 central files? 5 A. The custodian of records? 6 Q. Person in charge of maintaining the records. 7 A. Probably that would fall under Marion 8 Debardeleben. 9 Q. What was that name again? 10 A. Marion Debardeleben. 11 Q. Can you spell that? 12 A. D-e-b-a-r-d-e-l-e-b-e-n. 13 Q. Thank you. I want to hand you an exhibit that 14 has been marked as Goodman 6. I'm going to ask 15 that it be attached to your deposition, but I'm not 16 going to remark it unless you have some objection 17 to that. We can identify it as Goodman 6 and ask 18 you if you have seen this particular document 19 before? 20 A. I -- I don't believe I've ever seen this 21 document before. I simply -- I don't remember. 22 Maybe in the course of the previous deposition. 23 Q. Do you agree that with the definition of a 24 self-extinguishing cigarette as one that will go 25 out in two to four minutes if not puffed? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 61 1 A. Sounds reasonable to me. 2 Q. Are you familiar with incidences of cigarettes 3 self-extinguishing while on smoking machines? 4 A. Yes. I have heard of that happening. 5 Q. Has that ever happened in your presence? 6 A. No, I don't believe so. 7 Q. Are cigarettes supposed to go out on a smoking 8 machine? 9 A. No. 10 Q. When you've heard of cigarettes extinguishing 11 on a smoking machine, have you also been told of 12 what circumstances were surrounding that, why that 13 may have occurred? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Have you ever wondered why that might happen? 16 A. Oh, yeah, sure. 17 Q. Do you have any answers for why that might 18 happen? 19 A. Any number of things. The construction of the 20 cigarette certainly could bear a large role. 21 Additionally, the packing of the tobacco in a 22 cigarette can bear a role. 23 Q. As a part of your work with ignition 24 propensity, did you ever work with the Cambridge 25 cigarette? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 62 1 A. I don't believe I directly worked with 2 Cambridge. 3 Q. Do you recall reviewing any data concerning 4 the characteristics or qualities of ignition 5 propensity of the Cambridge cigarette? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you know whether or not the Cambridge 8 cigarette was a commercially marketed brand? 9 A. Yeah, Cambridge is a commercial brand. 10 Q. Still today? 11 A. I believe so. 12 Q. Who makes the Cambridge cigarette? 13 A. I think we do. I'm not really sure. I hate 14 to say that, having worked in new products, but 15 I... 16 Q. What -- on page 2 of the memo, if you want to 17 follow along, is where I'm deriving this line of 18 questions. Have you ever done any work with salt 19 casing? 20 A. I have done some limited work with salt 21 casings. 22 Q. What is meant by "salt casings" in terms of 23 cigarette ignition propensity? 24 A. In terms of ignition propensity? 25 Q. Yes. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 63 1 A. In general, salt casings are salts applied to 2 the tobacco in the manufacturing process. That's 3 its -- I mean, that's what a salt casing is. How 4 it relates to Project Hamlet is that we tried 5 different kinds of casings and -- with and without 6 casings to try to see if there was differences in 7 ignition propensity index. 8 Q. Do you recall finding any such differences? 9 A. I believe there were some differences. I'd 10 have to -- have to see memos to remember what. 11 Q. When the tests were performed through Hamlet, 12 such as on salt casings or smaller diameter 13 cigarettes or whatever components you were looking 14 at at that particular time, you mentioned earlier 15 that the results would typically be reported by 16 memo form, correct? 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. Was there no attempt to gather the results and 19 store them separate and apart for a statistical 20 analysis or any other purpose? 21 A. I'm sure there were files that recorded 22 numbers and model type -- model designations and 23 numbers. 24 Q. Where were those files kept when you last 25 worked with them? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 64 1 A. I last worked with them when they were in my 2 directories. When I moved to the computer 3 application division, I handed over what files I 4 had to Barbro, and the rest of the stuff I just 5 deleted. 6 Q. You're referring to directories on your 7 software on your computer? 8 A. Yes, exactly. 9 Q. What type of information would you have 10 deleted? 11 A. Stuff that was already on paper in some 12 fashion. When we make cigarettes, it's assigned an 13 arbitrary code -- code name or code number, 14 alphabet number sequence, and that's the kind of 15 information I kept to keep track of what was what. 16 Q. During the course of your work on Project 17 Hamlet, was the type of research you conducted and 18 the direction that your research taken ever 19 influenced by Philip Morris legal counsel? 20 A. I don't know directly. 21 Q. What about indirectly? 22 A. I'm sure that they had input into my 23 management's directions or concerns, but I don't 24 know what they would be. 25 Q. Mr. Greene, I want to hand you what's been MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 65 1 marked as Exhibit No. 2, and ask you to -- as 2 Exhibit 2 to the Goodman deposition which will be 3 attached to your deposition as well. But I want to 4 ask you if you can identify it? 5 A. This is a -- I guess copies of slides given by 6 Andy Kallianos at some talk of his. 7 Q. Do you remember attending that talk? 8 A. I don't remember if I was there or not. I 9 could well have been. I don't remember. 10 Q. Do you remember seeing the document before 11 you, Goodman 2, prior to today? 12 A. Yes, I have. 13 Q. In what context have you seen it? 14 A. I saw it when we were working on the project. 15 Q. Is Goodman Exhibit 2 a document that was 16 generated as a result of the ignition propensity 17 studies conducted in the Hamlet project? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Is it something -- is it a document that, to 20 your knowledge, was contained in the business 21 records of Philip Morris? 22 A. I don't know that. 23 Q. On the fifth page of that document, Bates 24 No. 854 being the last three digits -- 25 A. Yes. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 66 1 Q. -- there is a listing of three factors under 2 the title "Ideal Solution." Do you recall ever 3 hearing those components of an ideal solution? 4 A. Yes. I have seen these before. 5 Q. At the time you were working on the project, 6 did you agree or disagree with any of these three 7 components to the solution? 8 A. I don't believe I disagreed with any of the 9 components. 10 Q. Did any of the cigarettes or prototypical 11 cigarettes that you investigated in the course of 12 Project Hamlet meet all three of these criteria? 13 A. No. 14 Q. What was the most successful prototype or 15 other cigarette that was investigated in Hamlet 16 with respect to attempting to meet these criteria? 17 MR. CRAMPTON: By "successful," you 18 mean? 19 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Came closest to meeting -- 20 met the most number of criteria. What you would 21 consider to be the most successful outcome from the 22 project in terms of these criteria? 23 A. I couldn't remember the most successful. I 24 never had any that met the criteria. 25 Q. I'm sorry? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 67 1 A. I never had any cigarettes that met the 2 criteria. I couldn't tell you which one was -- I'm 3 not even sure I could evaluate which one was the 4 best. 5 Q. Do you recall developing or testing or 6 investigating designs of cigarettes or prototypes 7 that proceeded towards extinguishment by cool-down 8 when left on fabric and self-extinguished within 9 two to three minutes? I'm reading from No. 2. 10 A. Yeah. But is the first part of the question 11 -- again, you're saying, did I -- 12 Q. Investigate any cigarette design that met that 13 criteria -- criterion? 14 A. That was the whole investigation was trying to 15 meet that criteria. 16 Q. Were there any that met the second criteria? 17 A. I don't exactly understand what the phrase "by 18 cool-down" means; but, no, not really. 19 (Greene Exhibit No. 3 was 20 marked for identification.) 21 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Greene, I'll be handing 22 you a document that's marked as Greene Exhibit 3, 23 and after your attorney has looked at it, I'd like 24 for you to take a moment to familiarize yourself. 25 A. Yes. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 68 1 Q. What is that document? 2 A. This appears to be a quarterly status report. 3 Q. Was it prepared by you? 4 A. No, it was not. 5 Q. Who was it prepared by? 6 A. I believe it was prepared by a Dr. Kallianos. 7 Q. It was signed by you, however, correct? 8 A. It was? 9 Q. Sir? 10 A. I don't know. I don't see a signature on it. 11 MR. GRISHAM: I may not have all the 12 pages of that exhibit. Just a moment. 13 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) What date does it bear? 14 A. It says April 7th, 1981. 15 Q. And the last three digits of the Bates number? 16 A. 900. 17 Q. Under what circumstances do you recall having 18 seen this quarterly status report before today? 19 A. I don't remember when I've seen it. It was 20 probably typical quarterly status report that 21 Dr. Kallianos had put out. 22 Q. Do you recall, as a part of the project you 23 worked on, maintaining that the slim circumference 24 and additives to slow burn rate appeared to hold 25 the most promise for reducing ignition propensity? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 69 1 A. That's -- that's what's written here, yeah. 2 Q. Do you recall feeling that way or having that 3 opinion, back in 1981? 4 A. Sure. 5 Q. Do you recall specifically having meetings 6 with Philip Morris legal counsel concerning the 7 direction of facets of your research on the Hamlet 8 project? 9 A. Never. 10 Q. Sir? 11 A. Never. 12 MR. CRAMPTON: I was going to object to 13 the content of any such meetings, but since they 14 didn't happen, I guess I don't need to. 15 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) You never met Bill Crampton 16 with regard to your research efforts prior to 1993? 17 MR. CRAMPTON: I object to that. I 18 mean, he met with me with respect to one of the 19 cases in which he was deposed. Outside of that, 20 you can ask. 21 MR. GRISHAM: Certainly. That's what 22 I'm asking. 23 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Outside the preparation for 24 cases, I'm talking about in terms of Project 25 Hamlet? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 70 1 A. No. 2 Q. Have you ever been advised by Barbro Goodman 3 that she has had communication with Philip Morris 4 legal department with respect to -- 5 A. I don't remember her saying anything to that 6 effect. 7 (Greene Exhibit No. 4 was 8 marked for identification.) 9 THE WITNESS: Can I take a time out 10 here? 11 MR. CRAMPTON: Sure. Let's go off the 12 record. 13 (Brief recess.) 14 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Greene, I want to hand 15 you again what's been marked as Exhibit 4, and ask 16 you if you recall having seen that document? 17 A. I vaguely remember this document. 18 Q. Under what circumstances do you remember the 19 document? 20 A. Oh, I just -- I remember that Andy did some 21 work with this and wrote it up. I wasn't copied on 22 it, so I don't know if I actually got to see the 23 actual document. 24 Q. That was Andrew Kallianos? 25 A. Yes. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 71 1 Q. And the document purports to bear a date of 2 June 4th, 1981. Does that comply with your memory 3 and recollection of about when the events described 4 in the document took place? 5 A. Yeah. I couldn't dispute that. 6 Q. Do you recall the circumstances surrounding 7 the smolder rate testing of a full flavor 84 8 millimeter filtered cigarette manufactured from a 9 commercial blend of cased and cut tobaccos? 10 A. I'm sorry, you're asking me if I remember a 11 cigarette like that or -- 12 Q. If you remember testing a cigarette like that? 13 A. Yeah. I vaguely remember a crevice test. 14 Q. Do you recall the testing that is described in 15 the memo, Exhibit No. 4? 16 A. Yeah, vaguely. 17 Q. What were the circumstances of that testing? 18 A. My memory was that Dr. Kallianos had read an 19 article, and he wanted to see if he could reproduce 20 that. 21 Q. Did you assist in any way on the test? 22 A. I remember observing it. I don't know that I 23 actually did that. I think one of the fellows that 24 reported to me, a technician that worked for me, 25 did some of the work with Dr. Kallianos. But it's MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 72 1 been a long time. I don't remember the details. 2 Q. What was the setup for the test? Was it on 3 the mock-up? 4 A. This test? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. I really couldn't tell you. 7 Q. Do you recall it being a furniture mock-up? 8 A. No. This is -- this is -- relates to a 9 crevice test. The furniture mock-up is a flat bed 10 test. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. This would, at best, involve something at a 13 right angle. 14 Q. All right. 15 A. But it could vary under any number of angles. 16 Q. Do you recall the results that were obtained 17 from the testing that you observed? 18 A. Vaguely, yes. 19 Q. What do you recall about that? 20 A. That the cigarettes smoldered for a long time. 21 Q. What length of time did they smolder? 22 A. It says here 60 minutes. 23 Q. Do you agree or disagree with that? 24 A. I don't recall being at that, so I don't have 25 any direct facts on it. If he said so, fine. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 73 1 Q. In your experience, what would cause a 2 cigarette to smolder for 60 minutes under test 3 conditions like that? 4 A. Not having a lot of oxygen available, being in 5 a confined space. 6 Q. Okay. In paragraph 3 of the memo marked as 7 Exhibit 4, Andy Kallianos writes, quote, when 8 self-extinguishment did not occur during the first 9 two to five minutes, the system proceeded to total 10 conflagration uninterruptedly. Do you agree or 11 disagree with that conclusion? 12 A. I was not present during any conflagration, so 13 I cannot agree or disagree. 14 Q. With respect to a cigarette placed on a 15 fabric, upholstered-type mock-up, do you agree that 16 to avoid ultimate ignition, the cigarette must 17 self-extinguish within the first two to five 18 minutes? 19 A. Not necessarily. 20 Q. Under what circumstances could the cigarette 21 not self-extinguish in two to five minutes, yet not 22 achieve ignition? 23 A. Say that again, please. 24 Q. Sure. What circumstances would you suppose 25 might exist whereby a cigarette would smolder MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 74 1 longer than two to five minutes, yet not reach 2 ignition of the substrate? 3 A. Any number of cigarettes might do that. 4 Cigarettes that were extremely low weight, not in 5 contact, that's a possibility. 6 Q. In the fourth paragraph of the memo marked as 7 Exhibit 4, Andy Kallianos writes, quote, to our 8 amazement when the cigarette was placed into a 9 crevice, there was little evidence that ignition of 10 the mock-up had taken place for the first 15 to 20 11 minutes, closed quote. 12 Do you recall that occurring in any of the 13 tests that you observed? 14 A. No. As I said, I don't really recall being 15 there for a lot of his testing on the crevice work. 16 Q. Does that statement surprise you, or do you 17 disagree with it? 18 A. No, it does not surprise me. 19 Q. Why not? 20 A. It's a possibility. I would not think it's 21 impossible. 22 Q. Further into paragraph 4, Dr. Kallianos 23 writes, quote, the direction of burn in the mock-up 24 tended to be predominately along the cigarette axis 25 and away from the coal in the cigarette, closed MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 75 1 quote. 2 Do you agree or disagree with the general 3 principle that that is how the cigarette propagates 4 its burn? 5 A. Do I disagree or agree with that? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. I would tend to agree with it. 8 Q. On page 2 of that document, Mr. Greene, 9 sentence 3, Andy Kallianos writes, quote, it should 10 be appreciated that when the smoldering front of 11 the mock-up moves in the direction of the cigarette 12 burn, the fate of the cigarette is influenced more 13 by the fire in the system than by the smoldering 14 rate of the cigarette, closed quote. 15 Do you agree or disagree with that 16 statement? 17 A. I would tend to agree with that statement. 18 Q. Why is that the case? 19 A. The cigarette may provide an initial ignition 20 or initial smolder condition; and once that's 21 happened, then the -- whatever's burning the most, 22 providing the most heat would probably be the thing 23 that drives the system as opposed to the cigarette 24 itself. 25 Q. From the information contained in Exhibit 4 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 76 1 and from your experience through a number of years 2 working on Project Hamlet and the ignition 3 propensity studies, can we conclude then that a 4 cigarette, a commercial cigarette, lying in a 5 crevice is going to respond differently and act 6 differently than a cigarette lying on a flat 7 surface? 8 A. I hate to make generalized conclusions like 9 that, but it's probably very likely. The real 10 world is much more complex than either of these 11 test methods. 12 Q. In what way would you expect the cigarette in 13 the crevice to act differently than the cigarette 14 on the flat surface? 15 A. I'm not sure how I would expect the cigarette 16 to act differently. I know that there are physical 17 differences in the two systems. There's more 18 pressure being applied, more contact in a crevice 19 situation, but there's also less oxygen available. 20 So any number of complex possibilities are there. 21 Q. Is it more likely to have an extended smolder 22 time if the cigarette's in a crevice, in your 23 experience? 24 A. I wouldn't be surprised. As I said, I didn't 25 do a lot of crevice work myself. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 77 1 (Greene Exhibit No. 5 was 2 marked for identification.) 3 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Greene, I'll hand you 4 what's been marked as Exhibit 5, and ask you to 5 take a moment to review that. 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Under what circumstances do you recall having 8 seen Exhibit 5? 9 A. Dr. Kallianos provided me with a copy of this 10 memo. 11 Q. Did he provide you with a copy of the memo 12 marked as Exhibit 5 at or near the time that 13 purports to be the date in the upper right-hand 14 corner, July 23rd, 1981? 15 A. I would assume so. 16 Q. And what was the purpose for you being 17 provided a copy of the memo? 18 A. I had done the work. 19 Q. Paragraph 1 of Exhibit 5, Dr. Kallianos writes 20 to Leo Meyer that during the past few months your 21 work on ignition propensities had produced several 22 possible alternatives for achieving the ultimate 23 goals of the project, correct? 24 A. Yes, that's what it says. 25 Q. Do you recall by 1981 having produced several MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 78 1 possible alternatives to the -- to achieve the 2 goal? 3 A. Do I recall having had several possible 4 alternatives which achieved the goal? I'm not 5 quite sure what he -- what his goal was. I see he 6 says a model tendency to self-extinguish within 7 three minutes. Okay. 8 Don't really remember, but I would assume 9 that, at least, this model does. 10 Q. Okay. Do you recall the July 1, 1981, 11 prototype that had the tendency to self-extinguish 12 within three minutes on the furniture mock-up? 13 A. Are you referring to the one that's coded here 14 as X6D0BOL? 15 Q. I'm not sure. What I -- what I was 16 particularly looking at was in paragraph 1, the 17 last sentence, which talks about the July 1st, 18 1981, prototype. 19 A. Oh, this model? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you believe that's model X6D0BOL? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you recall that particular prototype? 25 A. Vaguely, yeah. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 79 1 Q. What were the characteristics of it? 2 A. As it says here, it had a cigarette paper P0SA 3 manufactured by Schweitzer, relatively nonporous 4 and contains phosphate. 5 Q. So there were some paper modifications to that 6 model? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you recall any other modifications? 9 A. I don't. And there may well have been other 10 modifications. I don't recall them. 11 Q. Do you know whether or not any panel testing 12 was done for the flavor, aesthetics and other -- 13 A. I don't remember. 14 Q. -- acceptability requirements? 15 A. I don't remember. 16 Q. Do you know if there was any consumer testing 17 done on that prototype? 18 A. Consumer testing? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. No. 21 Q. Was there any objective panel testing done on 22 this prototype, to your recollection? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Did this particular Model X6D0BOL contain any 25 self-extinguishing rings, coded rings on the paper? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 80 1 A. I don't believe so, no. 2 Q. Now, the X6D0BOL was manufactured with 3 commercial blends of tobacco, wasn't it? 4 A. That's what it -- yeah, that's what it says. 5 Q. And it had a tendency to self-extinguish 6 within three minutes or so on the mock-up, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And it had a very low ignition propensity on 9 the mock-up test? 10 A. The I.P.I. was probably low. 11 Q. Was what? 12 A. Ignition propensity index, the index number 13 was probably a high number as opposed to a low 14 number. 15 Q. In paragraph 4, line 3, Andy Kallianos writes, 16 "The cigarette has a tendency to self-extinguish 17 within three minutes or so in the furniture mock-up 18 and has shown a very low ignition propensity on the 19 mock-up test." Do you agree with that? 20 A. Yeah, I guess. 21 Q. He goes on to write his ignition propensity 22 index was calculated to be 8.7 minutes; do you 23 recall that? 24 A. Sure, yeah. 25 Q. That was a very high -- MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 81 1 A. -- number. 2 Q. -- number, wasn't it? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Which means the cigarette had a very low 5 ignition propensity on the test? 6 A. Yeah. Past a certain point, past an index of 7 four or five things, they get kind of vague. 8 Q. He goes on to write that most commercial 9 cigarettes, including the More cigarette, ignite 10 the mock-up within two minutes. Do you recall that 11 occurring? 12 A. Yes, that's correct. 13 Q. Are any of those prototypes, the X6D0BOL, 14 still in existence? 15 A. I would doubt it seriously. 16 Q. Why so? Why would you doubt that? 17 A. Well, the model was made in 1980, hence the 18 D0. We just don't keep them past -- they get 19 beetles and things. We -- 20 Q. What besides -- you mentioned the D0 refers to 21 a date of 1980? 22 A. That's the decade, yeah. 23 Q. Yeah. What -- what other aspects of the 24 numerical designation of the model have particular 25 significance? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 82 1 A. The only thing is the X6. 2 Q. What does that mean? 3 A. Probably that it's an 85 millimeter rod. The 4 B-O-L is arbitrary. 5 Q. It says in paragraph 5 of the memo from 6 Dr. Kallianos to Leo Meyer that the cigarette was 7 made for another purpose and was submitted for 8 routine analysis earlier in the year with various 9 diluted filters. Do you know what purpose it had 10 been made for? 11 A. No, I don't. 12 Q. On page 2 of Dr. Kallianos' memo, he sets 13 forth some of the qualities of the cigarette, in 14 terms of No. 1 the total puffs per minute, correct 15 -- or is that -- is that what that stands for? 16 A. No, I'm sorry. That's T.P.M. 17 Q. What does T.P.M. stand for? 18 A. Total particulate matter. 19 Q. Oh, okay. And it had a total particulate 20 matter reading of 27.61? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Was that within the range of commercial 23 cigarettes? 24 A. No. 25 Q. How was it out of range? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 83 1 A. Very high. 2 Q. What does total particulate matter refer to? 3 A. It's all the material that lands on the 4 Cambridge pad during the smoking process as defined 5 by the F.D.C. method. 6 Q. Is it the flaking of the ash? 7 A. No, no. It's puffing, drawing particulate 8 matter. It is the thing that then gets calculated 9 as tar later on. 10 Q. Okay. Was the nicotine level in this 11 particular prototype within the range of commercial 12 cigarettes? 13 A. It -- it looks high. It's been a long time 14 since I've looked at numbers like this. It looks 15 high to me now. Maybe within the range of 16 commercial cigarettes, but it looks a little high. 17 Q. Can total particulate matter be filtered out? 18 A. Well, it can. I mean, it's the thing that -- 19 the difference between tar and T.P.M. is 20 essentially subtracting off the water, the analyzed 21 water and nicotine content of the T.P.M. That's 22 what gives you tar. 23 Q. And the T.P.M. and the nicotine can be -- and 24 tar can be altered through the filtering of a 25 cigarette? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 84 1 A. To some extent with consequences, yes. 2 Q. Was the H2O content, 4.68, within the 3 parameters of commercial cigarette quality? 4 A. That's a high number. 5 Q. Was the tar of 21.30 outside the range, or a 6 high number? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And the NO and CO readings? 9 A. Very high. 10 Q. Dr. Kallianos noted underneath those numbers 11 that all deliveries decreased with dilution of the 12 cigarette while puff count increased. Do you know 13 what was being referred to by "dilution"? 14 A. Dilution is -- within the industry dilution is 15 putting holes, essentially, in the filter to reduce 16 the amount of smoke that's pulled. 17 Q. And what does "delivery" refer to? 18 A. The T.P.M., the tar, the nicotine, the water, 19 the CO, and so on. 20 Q. So Dr. Kallianos noted in his memo that all 21 the deliveries, the things we talked about--total 22 particulate matter, tar, nicotine--decreased as you 23 diluted the filter of the cigarette? 24 A. Yes, generally. Not necessarily linearly, but 25 to some extent all those. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 85 1 Q. And the puff count increased? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you agree with him that dilution should not 4 affect ignition propensity? 5 A. I didn't think so at the time. I'm not -- I 6 remember a point where I was not entirely convinced 7 of that. 8 Q. Where do you stand on that today? 9 A. Well, it's been so long since I've been 10 involved, I couldn't tell you now. 11 It should not have a major effect. But, 12 again, this is a very tightly controlled little 13 analysis, and there are a whole lot of factors 14 here. And it occurred to me over time that there 15 are a whole lot of factors that we were unable to 16 control or we simply did not know the effect of, 17 and dilution was one of those. 18 Q. Dr. Kallianos writes in his memo that the 19 cigarette provided a reasonably, normal smoke 20 taste. Do you recall that? 21 A. That's a -- I believe -- my belief is is 22 that's a very relative comment. 23 Q. Do you recall how he arrived at that 24 conclusion? 25 A. I do not recall directly. He probably just MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 86 1 picked up a cigarette and smoked it. 2 Q. Do you recall the attributes that he 3 summarizes on page 2 of the memo that the 4 advantages of the prototype where it had a normal 5 manufacturing procedure? 6 A. Uh-huh. 7 Q. You agree with that? 8 A. Sure. 9 Q. That it had a normal appearance; do you agree 10 with that? 11 A. I would have to go back to records and find 12 out. 13 Q. Today you don't have a recollection one way or 14 the other? 15 A. I don't have a recollection. 16 Q. You -- 17 A. Paper -- 18 Q. I'm sorry. 19 A. Papers of this type don't necessarily normally 20 have a, what we call, a normal appearance. 21 Q. But Dr. Kallianos wrote that this one had a 22 normal appearance, for whatever reason? 23 A. The -- yeah. And I'm not sure here whether 24 he's referring to the paper or the resulting 25 appearance as it burns. It's two different things. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 87 1 Q. He wrote that the prototype could be flavored 2 to normal tastes. Do you agree with that? 3 A. Flavor is not my area. I don't -- 4 Q. So you don't have an opinion? 5 A. I don't have an opinion. 6 Q. He wrote that it could be smoked normally 7 without apparent problems. Do you agree with that 8 assessment? 9 A. I have no reason to disagree with it, but 10 couldn't really tell you. 11 Q. He wrote that it could be diluted to provide 12 low deliveries and self-extinguishes within three 13 minutes or so; do you agree with those two 14 statements? 15 A. Yes. There's a limit as to how much dilution 16 you can put on to lower delivery. That it 17 self-extinguishes within three minutes, I would 18 agree with. 19 Q. And, finally, he wrote as an advantage it has 20 drastically reduced ignition propensity. Do you 21 agree with that? 22 A. It has a higher number on the test. No, I 23 don't agree with reduced ignition propensity, if 24 you're trying to apply that to real world. If 25 you're applying it to the index number, the index MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 88 1 number was better, yes. 2 (Greene Exhibit No. 6 was 3 marked for identification.) 4 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Greene, I want to hand 5 you what's been marked as Greene Exhibit No. 6 for 6 your review. 7 A. (Witness complies). 8 Q. Now, Mr. Greene, I don't want to interrupt 9 you. Feel free to review all you want to, but I've 10 got a limited number of questions, so -- 11 A. Sure. 12 Q. -- if you need to refer to that, please feel 13 free to do so. 14 A. All right. 15 Q. Generally, I'd like to ask you if you've seen 16 that document before? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Under what circumstances? 19 A. I helped author it. 20 Q. It bears a date of when? 21 A. April 19th, 1982. 22 Q. And what was -- was it a special report on -- 23 as a part of the ignition propensity studies? 24 A. Yes. It's marked as a special report as 25 opposed to an annual report. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 89 1 Q. And it bears your signature, correct? 2 A. Yes, it does. 3 Q. I note at the bottom of the exhibit that there 4 are keywords noted in a box? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Was the project -- had it developed to the 7 point by 1982 that documents such as Exhibit 6 that 8 you hold there before you could be keyword searched 9 on a computer? 10 A. I don't know if that capability existed. I -- 11 that was something we were moving toward. 12 Q. Okay. Do you know why the keyword box was 13 contained at the bottom and certain keywords put in 14 the box, if you weren't to the point yet of being 15 able to search for documents such as this? 16 A. No. Any report that was of annual, 17 semiannual, completion, or special report was 18 required to have keywords on there for that general 19 idea of being able to search. 20 I mean, it's not something that is unusual. 21 This is the usual format. 22 Q. Certainly. That's what I'm trying to 23 understand is how that search would be undertaken? 24 A. Someone probably would request the personnel 25 in central files to search for things that have -- MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 90 1 and they would give a list of keywords. 2 Q. In 1982 did Philip Morris U.S.A. have the 3 capability to perform those searches at central 4 files, or is that something that developed later 5 on? 6 A. They probably did. I'm not familiar with the 7 -- what technology was available at that time. 8 MR. CRAMPTON: Are you talking about 9 searching on a computer as opposed to searching a 10 file index? 11 MR. GRISHAM: I'm just talking about 12 searching generally. 13 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Was that your understanding? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you know what method was used, whether it 16 was computer method or otherwise? 17 A. I really don't. 18 Q. Does Exhibit 6 appear to be a reasonably 19 authentic replication of the document that you 20 helped author and signed in 1982? 21 A. I'll assume so, yeah. 22 Q. On page 23 of the document, which bears a 23 Bates number of the last three digits 049, I'd like 24 to direct your attention to the last paragraph of 25 the summary and conclusions paragraph for this MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 91 1 report that you helped author. 2 A. 049, page 23, and the last paragraph? 3 Q. Yes. I want to quote from your report. It 4 says, "On the basis of our work to date, we are 5 forced to conclude that the total risk of ignition 6 of upholstered furniture by a cigarette handled in 7 a careless manner cannot be obviated without 8 incurring penalties; and that the penalties under 9 current technology are quite severe, closed quote. 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Do you recall including this language within 12 your report? 13 A. Those are probably not my words. But I recall 14 the language, yes. 15 Q. What was being referred to as the penalties 16 that would be incurred in terms of creating an 17 ignition -- reduced ignition cigarette? 18 A. I would -- in order to answer that, I would 19 need to read that document thoroughly. In general, 20 the taste, appearance, marketability, you know, the 21 things that we look for in a commercial cigarette 22 are not there. The deliveries are very high. Just 23 not something that our experience would lead us to 24 believe the market would want to smoke. 25 Q. So the penalties that you were referring to MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 92 1 were penalties in the marketplace? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Is the concept of puff count something that 4 plays a role in marketability of cigarettes? 5 A. Again, marketing is not my direct area. But I 6 would imagine, yeah, that was something that you 7 would want to hold consistent. 8 Q. And why is that? 9 A. Because people are used to certain physical 10 parameters when they consume a cigarette. 11 Q. If a cigarette has a higher puff count, does 12 that mean it burns slower? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. Do you know of any research that's been done 15 to determine whether or not a slower burning 16 cigarette will reduce the number of cigarettes 17 someone smokes? 18 A. That I don't know. 19 Q. On page 26 of the document that you have 20 before you, Bates number ending in 052, there's a 21 table designated as Table 11 and entitled "Effects 22 of Paper Porosity and Additives on Ignition 23 Propensity in Smoke Properties." Do you recall 24 compiling or assisting or helping in any way in 25 compiling that data? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 93 1 A. I'm sure I did. I -- again, it's been a lot 2 of years. I don't remember doing it, but I'm sure 3 I did. 4 Q. Do you recall arriving at the data in Column 2 5 on this particular table with the nonporous, 6 phosphate wrapper cigarette? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Sir? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did the experimental cigarette that you've 11 reported on in this document on page 26 have the 12 advantages of no ignition propensity in normal 13 appearance? 14 A. That's what it says here. 15 Q. Do you recall that? 16 A. No, not really. But yeah, I'll take the word 17 for the document. 18 Q. And do you recall it having a disadvantage of 19 tending to go out, high puff count, high 20 deliveries, dark flaky ash, taste differences? 21 A. Sure, yeah. 22 Q. Likewise, do you recall reporting on the 23 nonporous, nonadditive wrapper, Column 3? 24 A. I'm sure I did. 25 Q. And it had similar disadvantages to the MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 94 1 nonporous phosphate wrapper with the addition of 2 normal making, correct? 3 A. Yeah. They both say normal making. 4 Q. Oh, do they? Okay. What does "making" refer 5 to? 6 A. Just the construction process. 7 Q. In other words, it can be manufactured under 8 the same processes? 9 A. Yes. 10 (Greene Exhibit No. 7 was 11 marked for identification.) 12 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Greene, I'd like to hand 13 you what's been marked as Exhibit 7 for your 14 review, please. 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Under what circumstances do you recall having 17 seen that quarterly status report? 18 A. It's a report apparently written by Barbro 19 Goodman. 20 Q. And would you have been copied on that report 21 back in 1983? 22 A. It's possible. 23 Q. Do you recall seeing it back during the 1983 24 time period? 25 A. I'm sure I did. I'm sure I did. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 95 1 Q. Do you recall the Ecusta cigarette paper that 2 was developed with bands that were treated with a 3 rosin mixture, making the wrapper impermeable long 4 enough for the coal to extinguish? 5 A. Yes, I remember the paper. 6 Q. Was that something that you were involved in 7 testing? 8 A. Sure, yes. 9 Q. And did that reduce ignition propensity with 10 respect to the ignition propensity index that you 11 had developed? 12 A. I'm looking through the document to see what 13 it says. That's a very difficult paper to handle 14 and test. I believe in some instances there were 15 longer times to ignition from that paper. Highly 16 dependent on how you test with the additional 17 complication of where the -- where the bands are in 18 relation to where you started on the cigarette and, 19 you know, contact time and so on. 20 In between the bands it had whatever effect 21 would normally have -- that base paper would 22 normally have. 23 Q. Do you recall any flavor testing having been 24 done on that cigarette? 25 A. I don't recall any. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 96 1 Q. Do you recall it having any disadvantages, 2 other than increased puff count? 3 A. I would conclude that there -- there would 4 be. I don't recall specifically, but in general, I 5 would think that they would have all the 6 disadvantages but to a lower extent than a paper 7 made with this kind of nonpermeable material on it. 8 Q. With respect to the X6D0BOL prototype that we 9 talked about a moment ago that Andy Kallianos 10 reported on, do you know whether or not flavor 11 testing was done on that prototype? 12 A. I really don't know. I didn't request flavor 13 testing myself. 14 Q. Do you know whether or not any sort of 15 consumer testing was done on that prototype? 16 A. I do not know. 17 Q. With respect to the exhibit you're looking at, 18 the banded Ecusta paper cigarettes, on page 2 under 19 the plans and timetable, one of the plans was to 20 design commercial brands with improved ignition 21 propensity with the least amount of change in 22 cigarette deliveries to include flavor development 23 work by the first quarter of 1983? 24 A. That's what it says, yes. 25 Q. Do you know what the plans were to achieve MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 97 1 this particular goal by 1983? 2 A. No, I don't remember. I don't recall and I'm 3 not sure -- I'm not sure what goals you're 4 referring to. 5 Q. No. 2 under the plans and timetable also 6 designated that by the second or third quarters of 7 1983, focus group testing of prototypes would be 8 conducted for direction of that effort. Do you 9 recall any focus group testing? 10 A. No, I don't recall any focus group testing. 11 Q. And the last plan under the four-part plan of 12 the exhibit that you hold before you is to test 13 ignition propensities of models developed for other 14 programs. Do you recall what was being tested for 15 other programs? 16 A. No, I don't recall. There were a multitude of 17 programs going on continuously throughout the 18 Research Center, and we were looking for anything 19 we could find. 20 (Greene Exhibit No. 8 was 21 marked for identification.) 22 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Let me hand you Exhibit 23 No. 8, Mr. Greene, and ask you if you recall having 24 seen that document? 25 A. I don't recall. But yes, I've probably seen MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 98 1 this document, yes. 2 Q. Were you working still on Project Hamlet in 3 October of 1983? 4 A. Yes, I was. 5 Q. Barbro Goodman would have penned this memo? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you recall as stated under the status 8 portion of that quarterly report, No. 5, that 9 flavor development work was produced on a prototype 10 with fewer serious off-notes and slightly more 11 tobacco taste? 12 A. Do I recall that that was done? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. No. But I'll take the word for it. 15 Q. Well, do you recall which prototype that may 16 have been? 17 A. No, I don't. 18 Q. Do you recall a prototype that had a high 19 ignition propensity index number, yet had fewer 20 serious off-notes and a slightly more tobacco 21 taste? 22 A. No, I do not. 23 (Greene Exhibit No. 9 was 24 marked for identification.) 25 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Take a moment to review MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 99 1 that, and tell me if you recall having seen that 2 memo before. 3 A. I don't know if I've seen this before. 4 Q. Do you recall an effort at Philip Morris in 5 the 1984 era to produce a subjectively acceptable 6 cigarette with reduced ignition propensity ongoing; 7 in other words, in 1984 that was still a goal? 8 A. Oh, yes. 9 Q. Okay. This particular memo mentions team 10 members Bell, Demian, and Lanzillotti? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you recognize those names? 13 A. Yes, I do. 14 Q. Who are they? 15 A. Bill Bell, Barbru Demian and Harry Lanzillotti 16 were members of the flavor department within new 17 products. 18 Q. Are any of those persons still with Philip 19 Morris? 20 A. Dr. Demian is still there. I don't know -- I 21 don't think Bill Bell is, and I know Harry 22 Lanzillotti has retired. 23 Q. Do you know where either Mr. Bell or 24 Lanzillotti reside? 25 A. No, I don't. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 100 1 Q. Of those individuals, was one of the other 2 more in charge or in a more -- 3 A. I couldn't tell you. Don't know. 4 Q. I want to hand you what's already been marked 5 as Goodman 3, which will also be attached to your 6 deposition, but we won't remark it for 7 identification purposes necessarily. And ask you 8 if you recall having seen this document before? 9 MR. CRAMPTON: Are you okay? I just 10 noticed that yawn. 11 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I probably need to 12 take a break in a minute. 13 A. This doesn't trigger any memory at all. 14 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Do you recall a prototype 15 that was being tested in the October 1984 time 16 period with a nonporous wrapper with 82nd Greiner 17 measure with a low level of M.A.P. as a burn 18 moderator? 19 A. I suppose. 20 Q. Do you recall what the name of that prototype 21 was or the number or designation? 22 A. No, no, I do not. 23 Q. What was ultimately the result of the research 24 on that prototype? 25 A. I don't know. I don't recall that at all. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 101 1 Q. Do you recall any flavor testing having been 2 done on that prototype? 3 A. I don't recall that. Again, I didn't work 4 directly with flavor. 5 Q. I also want to hand you what's been marked as 6 Exhibit 5 to the Goodman deposition and ask that it 7 also is attached to your deposition. Take a moment 8 to review that. 9 MR. CRAMPTON: Do you need a break? 10 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think so. 11 MR. CRAMPTON: Off the record. 12 (Brief recess.) 13 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) What's the number of the 14 exhibit you're looking at there? 15 MR. CRAMPTON: It's Goodman 5. 16 A. Goodman 5. 17 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Do you recognize Goodman 5? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you recall authoring that memo? 20 A. Yeah, vaguely. 21 Q. And it's dated when? 22 A. 16 November 1990 -- 1986. 23 Q. Were you at the end of the time period that 24 you were working on Hamlet when you authored this 25 memo? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 102 1 A. Yes. I did about -- somewhere -- six months 2 to a year of transition between the two 3 departments. 4 Q. According to the memo, at the time you were 5 looking at expanded materials as a way of 6 increasing rod density to achieve a slower burning 7 cigarette? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. As a part of your studies, did you find that, 10 in fact, increasing the percent of expanded 11 material was affecting and increasing the rod 12 density and thus achieving a slower burning 13 cigarette, the last paragraph? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did -- as a result of achieving a slower 16 burning cigarette, did you then create a cigarette 17 that would have a higher ignition propensity index 18 score? 19 A. I don't recall. Probably, but I don't recall 20 directly. 21 Q. Do you know what happened to the particular 22 line of research going into this expanded 23 material -- 24 A. No, I don't. 25 Q. -- program? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 103 1 A. I don't know what happened to it after I left. 2 Q. Do you recall any name, project name or 3 prototype name, associated with this type cigarette 4 with the expanded material -- 5 A. No. 6 Q. -- in the tobacco? 7 A. No. 8 Q. What materials were being looked at to 9 increase the burn time? 10 A. Expanded tobacco, and it's saying DIET 11 expanded tobacco. 12 Q. It's what? 13 A. DIET. It's Dry Ice Expanded Tobacco. 14 Q. I want to hand you what's been marked as 15 Whidby Exhibit No. 8 for you to review. And it 16 will be attached to your deposition, but we won't 17 remark it with another number. And ask you after 18 you've had a chance to review it if you recall 19 having seen the document before? 20 A. I don't recall ever having seen this 21 document. 22 Q. Do you recall ever hearing or reading, while 23 at Philip Morris, that Philip Morris U.S.A. 24 intended to work to ensure that no compulsory 25 requirements regarding ingredient disclosure or MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 104 1 fire-safe cigarettes became law? 2 I'm reading from page A-27 of that document, 3 Bates No. 889. 4 A. 889. Your question again? 5 Q. Were you aware that in the 1988 to '92 time 6 period that Philip Morris intended to work to 7 ensure that no compulsory requirements regarding 8 ingredient disclosure or fire-safe cigarettes 9 became law? 10 MR. CRAMPTON: Object to the form. Go 11 ahead. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 13 MR. CRAMPTON: You can answer the 14 question, if you can answer. 15 A. I'm not aware of that. I've never been aware 16 of that. 17 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) No one at Philip Morris in 18 terms of people you worked with or worked under 19 imparted to you any knowledge concerning a policy 20 to prevent fire-safe cigarettes from becoming law? 21 A. No. 22 (Greene Exhibit No. 10 was 23 marked for identification.) 24 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Mr. Greene, I want to hand 25 you what's been marked as Exhibit 10 to your MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 105 1 deposition, and after you've had a chance to review 2 that, ask you some questions. 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Under what circumstances have you seen that 5 document? 6 A. Probably in the last deposition, the Hamilton 7 case. 8 Q. Do you recall having seen it through the 9 course of your work with Hamlet or in the 10 transition period between Hamlet and the computer 11 applications job? 12 A. No, I don't. 13 Q. Who is Angela D. Smith? 14 A. A lady that works in the product evaluation 15 section of Research & Development. 16 Q. Okay. Would that be in the section that deals 17 with flavoring and subjective componentry of 18 cigarettes? 19 A. No. This would be in the group that handles 20 testing. 21 Q. Okay. Do you recall any tests being done on a 22 prototype that was designated as D7TL, a nonporous 23 paper cigarette with a modified blend? 24 A. No, I don't recall that. 25 Q. Do you recall learning of such a cigarette MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 106 1 with a nonporous paper in a modified blend that did 2 not score significantly different from the ratings 3 on full-flavored control cigarettes in the 4 subjective areas, such as throat grab, off-taste 5 aftertaste and acceptability? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Was such a cigarette that was scored similar 8 to a full-flavored control cigarette part of the 9 Hamlet goal? 10 A. Oh, that was one of our goals, yes. 11 Q. On the second page of that memo, there is a 12 mention of a -- excuse me, an A-N-O-V-A in all 13 caps, what does that refer to? 14 A. Analysis of variance, a standard statistical 15 term, like, mean or... 16 Q. In terms of a prototypical cigarette that 17 showed no differences, significant differences, in 18 the rated means of the control and experimental 19 cigarettes on the attributes of impact, throat 20 grab, off-taste, aftertaste and acceptability, did 21 the particular cigarette designated as D7TL meet 22 that goal? 23 MR. CRAMPTON: Object to the form. 24 A. I don't know. I really don't. And I have no 25 idea what that cigarette was. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 107 1 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Do you recall hearing from 2 anyone who had worked on Hamlet that a cigarette 3 had been developed and tested that appeared to be 4 equally acceptable to the smokers in the test to 5 the control cigarette? 6 A. My only recollection of any cigarettes that 7 were even closely related to being acceptable in 8 taste were not particularly successful on the 9 ignition propensity index. 10 Q. Did -- do you know whether or not the 11 particular prototype that is the subject of the 12 memo you hold before you was acceptable or 13 successful in ignition propensity? 14 A. I do not know that. 15 Q. From page 1, a review of the analytical 16 results -- 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- for that particular prototype, do they 19 appear to be within the range of acceptable quality 20 and componentry to the commercial cigarette? 21 A. I would say not. 22 Q. And how do they deviate? 23 A. The test called R.T.D. is 5.2. That's 24 probably unacceptably high. 25 Q. And R.T.D. refers to resistance to draw? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 108 1 A. That's right. How much pull it takes to get a 2 puff. 3 Q. It was harder to puff, correct? 4 A. Very, yes. 5 Q. And how else, if in any way, was it not 6 comparable to the commercial cigarette that it was 7 tested against? 8 A. In -- none of these results show anything. 9 There's a lot of other tests that aren't shown 10 here, so I don't know. 11 Q. What is the range of R.T.D. that is 12 acceptable? 13 A. About 3 inches to 4, 4-1/2. Above 4-1/2, 14 they're difficult. 15 Q. I'm going to hand you what's been marked as 16 Whidby Exhibit No. 9, which we'll attach to your 17 deposition, but I won't necessarily remark, and ask 18 you if you've seen that document before? 19 A. No, I don't believe I've ever seen this 20 document before. 21 Q. Are you familiar with the research that's been 22 undertaken with Project Tomorrow? 23 A. Only that it exists and they're still burning 24 cigarettes. 25 Q. Has Philip Morris developed a cigarette with MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 109 1 ignition propensity index of over 4-1/2 that in 2 flavor studies has been found to be comparable to 3 commercial cigarettes? 4 A. Not that I know of. 5 Q. With respect to the Research & Development 6 Department of Philip Morris today, can you list all 7 of the operating systems in use, computer operating 8 systems? 9 A. I am aware of DOS, Unix, Windows NT. And I 10 omit Windows 3.1 because it's really a shell on top 11 of DOS. Those are the ones I'm familiar with off 12 the top of my head. 13 Q. Do you know what database software is 14 currently in use with Research & Development? 15 A. Sybase. 16 Q. What document or data indexing software -- 17 A. I'm sorry, there -- yeah, there are things 18 besides Sybase. That's the main focus. I'm sorry. 19 Q. What else besides Sybase? 20 A. There is a database called Topic, and I don't 21 know much about it other than it's a text 22 database. And we use Access. We're growing our 23 use of Access. 24 Q. You're growing the use of Access? 25 A. Yeah. That's Microsoft's database for MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 110 1 Desktop. 2 Q. Can Access or Topic be used to word search 3 documents? 4 A. It depends on how the database is constructed 5 and what tables are there. 6 Q. What document or data indexing software is 7 currently in use? 8 A. Document or data indexing software? Our 9 current query language is Brio query (phonetics). 10 That's what we're putting on the desktop these 11 days. 12 Q. Is the Research & Development Department 13 functioning with PC's, or is there a mainframe? 14 A. Both. 15 Q. What is the distinction between the PC and the 16 mainframe? Are certain individuals at certain 17 levels given access to the mainframe, or is it 18 certain types of data that are stored on the 19 mainframe versus the PC? 20 A. Yeah. It's not individual specific. It's 21 more what -- what things are where, where things 22 have grown up over the years. And we're in the 23 process of moving from Unix to NT. 24 Q. Do you smoke cigarettes? 25 A. Yes, I do. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 111 1 Q. How long have you been a smoker? 2 A. Since college. 3 Q. What brand do you smoke? 4 A. Currently smoke Merit Ultima 85's. 5 Q. Have you ever smoked Marlboro 100's? 6 A. Yes. I'm sure I've had one or two. It's not 7 been my main brand. 8 Q. Okay. What documents have you reviewed in 9 preparation for your deposition? 10 MR. CRAMPTON: Yes. And the objection 11 is that you can't tell him any of the documents 12 that you were shown by counsel in preparation for 13 the deposition. But if you looked at anything 14 outside of that, you can certainly answer. 15 A. Outside of that, none. 16 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Are you going to follow 17 Counsel's advice and not talk to me about documents 18 that you reviewed that he showed you in preparation 19 for your deposition? 20 A. Yes, I will follow his advice. And I couldn't 21 remember them anyway. 22 Q. Before you began the ignition propensity study 23 project in 1980, known as Hamlet, did you have any 24 preconceived ideas about the ability of technology 25 to develop a fire-safe cigarette? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 112 1 A. No. 2 Q. By the time you left the project in '86, did 3 you have an opinion as to whether or not a 4 cigarette could be developed that would extinguish 5 before it ignited the substrate of upholstered 6 furniture? 7 A. Yes, I did have an opinion on that. 8 Q. And what was your opinion? 9 A. That you can't change the laws of physics. 10 Q. And so you did not believe in 1986 that a 11 cigarette could be developed that would not intend 12 to ignite the substrate of furniture, upholstered 13 furniture? 14 MR. CRAMPTON: Objection. I'm just 15 objecting to the form of that question. It's 16 okay. 17 A. The question is, do I think it could be done? 18 No, I don't think it can be done. 19 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Do you think that a 20 cigarette can be designed that will improve upon 21 the current cigarettes that are marketed in terms 22 of ignition propensity? 23 A. I think that requires a conclusion about the 24 real world applicability, and I don't know that you 25 can do that. MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 113 1 Q. Do you know who Mario Cohens is? 2 A. Who? 3 Q. Mario Cohens. 4 A. Doesn't ring a bell. 5 Q. Jim Miracle? 6 A. Miracle? 7 Q. Miracle. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Who is Jim Miracle? 10 A. Jim Miracle was an employee at the Research 11 Center for sometime, and he's pretty high up there. 12 Q. Is he still with the company? 13 A. I believe so, yes. 14 Q. Do you know what his current position is? 15 A. I honestly don't. He's not in Research & 16 Development. 17 Q. Do you know who F.L. Daylor or Daylor? 18 A. Daylor, yes, Frank Daylor. 19 Q. Who's Frank Daylor? 20 A. Frank Daylor was manager of the flavor 21 department for some number of years. 22 Q. Is he still with the company? 23 A. I'm not sure what his current status is. I 24 see him from time to time, but I'm not sure if he's 25 retired and consulting or exactly what the status MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 114 1 is. 2 Q. Do you know Alan Kassman? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you know where he is today? 5 A. Neuchatel, Switzerland. 6 Q. Do you know what he's doing there? 7 A. He's in Research & Development there. He's 8 one of the bigwigs. 9 Q. Do you know who Bruce Lowsey is? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Who is he? 12 A. He's a physicist at the Research Center. 13 Q. Do you know his current whereabouts? 14 A. I do not. 15 Q. Do you believe he's still an employee? 16 A. Could be. I hate to say. I'm trying to 17 juggle 800 people these days. I don't remember 18 everybody's coming and goings. 19 Q. Do you know where Andrew Kallianos is today? 20 A. He's retired, to the best of my knowledge, in 21 North Carolina. 22 Q. Do you know where Mr. Demian is today? 23 A. Barbru Demian? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. Dr. Demian is still at the Research Center in MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 115 1 the flavor group or analytical. 2 Q. In Virginia? 3 A. Oh, yes, here in Richmond. 4 Q. From the period of time that you worked on 5 Hamlet, do you know what the annual budget was for 6 the Hamlet project? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Approximately what volume of personnel worked 9 on the Hamlet project? 10 A. What number? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. Oh, I don't know. Outside of Barbro and 13 myself and our two technicians, I couldn't make a 14 guess. People came and went and took a stab at it 15 here and there, and I don't know a lot of what 16 happened in other departments. 17 Q. Okay. Generally, based upon your studies with 18 ignition propensity, would you agree with me that 19 there is a correlation between rod density and 20 ignition propensity with respect to the mock-up 21 tests that you ran? 22 A. Not necessarily. 23 Q. Do you know what the concept of reversals are? 24 A. No. What are reversals? 25 Q. In terms of research of ignition propensity MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 116 1 and expected results? 2 A. I still don't understand your question. 3 Q. Then we probably shouldn't go talk about it 4 for 10 or 15 minutes. 5 A. Reversals? 6 Q. Yeah. Based upon your -- 7 A. I haven't heard the term before. 8 Q. Okay. Based upon your studies with ignition 9 propensities, in your opinion, they're a 10 correlation between the circumference of the rod of 11 the cigarette and the ignition propensity of the 12 cigarette on the mock-up? 13 A. There's a mild correlation. 14 Q. And what is that correlation? 15 A. As the circumference or diameter gets smaller, 16 there's less index, a higher index number. I don't 17 know whether that is always significant. 18 Q. Based upon your ignition propensity studies, 19 do you believe that there's a correlation between 20 wrapper porosity and ignition propensity with 21 respect to the mock-up tests? 22 A. In general, I think that there is a 23 correlation as the paper becomes less porous. 24 MR. CRAMPTON: By the mock-up test, 25 you're talking about the Hamlet mock-up test? MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 117 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. (By Mr. Grisham) Yes. With respect to those 3 same ignition propensity studies, do you believe 4 that there's a correlation between ignition 5 propensity and the treatment of wrappers with 6 sodium potassium citrate? 7 A. I don't know if that's a -- I believe there's 8 some effects there, and I don't know if it's a 9 single effect or a continuous effect. And I don't 10 know if they're statistically significant either. 11 None of these -- I would not be prepared to 12 make a statement about how statistically 13 significant any of those trends are and to what 14 extent they would even be statistically significant 15 on the mock-up test, much less the real world. 16 Q. What tendency did you see with respect to the 17 citrate treated paper? 18 A. I believe, if I remember correctly, papers 19 without citrate tend to have a little bit longer 20 time to ignition. 21 Q. And what effect does citrate have on the 22 cigarette design? 23 A. Why is it used? 24 Q. Why is it used? 25 A. It's a burn conditioner to even out the burn MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 118 1 so that you don't have, you know, racing spots on 2 one side and slow burn on another. It conditions 3 the paper and makes the burn more even, makes the 4 ash white. 5 Q. Was Project Hamlet a failure or a success? 6 A. That's not a conclusion I think I'm prepared 7 to make. Any project that advances your knowledge 8 is successful. If it tells you what you can and 9 cannot do, then it's successful. 10 Q. Did the -- did Project Hamlet meet the 11 objectives of the people who initiated the project? 12 A. No. 13 Q. How did it fall short in that respect? 14 A. Well, it would sound flippant for me to say 15 you can't change the laws of physics again. But 16 the bottom line is that we were not able to make 17 something that gave us what we had originally hoped 18 for. 19 Q. Do you have any present intents of retiring in 20 the near future? 21 A. No, I don't. 22 MR. GRISHAM: Pass the witness. 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 119 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. MARKEY: 3 Q. Mr. Greene, were there any recommendations 4 that you made to anyone in Philip Morris that, to 5 your knowledge, were not implemented or were not -- 6 that were implemented in the manufacturing process 7 of Philip Morris cigarettes? 8 A. No, I'm not aware of anything. And there I am 9 assuming you're talking about with respect to the 10 ignition propensity index? 11 Q. Yes, with regard -- I'm going to ask these 12 questions with regard to Hamlet. Were there any 13 recommendations that you made in any form to anyone 14 that were ignored? 15 A. No. 16 Q. So everything that is contained within the 17 documents that you've been through today is that -- 18 well, I'll strike that question. 19 Let me check my notes real quick. 20 MR. GRISHAM: While you're looking over 21 your notes, may I ask my two follow-ups? 22 MR. MARKEY: No. 23 Q. (By Mr. Markey) You mentioned after-cut 24 flavors. What are after-cut flavors? 25 A. Flavors applied to the tobacco after the MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 120 1 tobacco has been cut. 2 Q. What does that mean? 3 A. Tobacco comes in sheets. It's a leaf. It's 4 -- during the manufacturing process that leaf is 5 cut into small strips. Those strips are then 6 sprayed after the cut has been made with various 7 flavors. 8 Q. Like what? 9 A. I am not a flavor chemist, and I wouldn't want 10 to speculate on the flavors. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. I'm not sure to what extent that is privileged 13 information, trade secret information but... 14 MR. MARKEY: Okay. Go ahead. Lynn, go 15 ahead. 16 MR. GRISHAM: I don't have any further 17 questions. 18 MR. MARKEY: I'll pass the witness. 19 Thank you. 20 MR. GRISHAM: Thank you, sir. 21 22 23 (Whereupon deposition concluded 24 1:50 p.m., August 29, 1996.) 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 121 1 STATE OF VIRGINIA ) 2 COUNTY OF ) 3 4 5 I HEREBY CERTIFY that the answers to 6 the questions propounded to me at this deposition 7 are true, and that the foregoing typewritten pages 8 represent a full, true and accurate record of my 9 testimony given in this deposition. 10 11 12 RANDALL GREENE 13 14 15 16 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO before me by 17 the said witness, RANDALL GREENE, on this the 18 day of , 1996. 19 20 21 22 NOTARY PUBLIC 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 122 1 CAUSE NO. 26294 2 SHANNA SHIPMAN A/N/F OF * IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF 3 SHANNON MOORE, A MINOR, * Plaintiffs, * 4 * VS. * JOHNSON COUNTY, TEXAS 5 * PHILIP MORRIS COMPANIES, * 6 INC., PHILIP MORRIS * INCORPORATED, PHILIP * 7 MORRIS U.S.A., AND * SHELLY MOORE, * 8 Defendants * 18TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 9 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE OF FILING 10 ORAL DEPOSITION OF RANDALL GREENE TAKEN ON AUGUST 29, 1996 11 I, TAMARA J. BRAUN, Certified Shorthand 12 Reporter in and for the State of Texas, hereby certify to the following: 13 That the witness, RANDALL GREENE, was duly sworn by me; 14 That this transcript is a true record of the testimony given by the witness; 15 That the amount of charges for the preparation of this transcript and any copies of 16 exhibits is $ (paid by Plaintiffs); That the deposition transcript was submitted 17 on the 16th day of September, 1996, to the witness ( ) or to the attorney of record (X) for a party 18 who was a witness, for examination and signature with instructions for the return of the transcript 19 by the 16th day of October, 1996; submitted to Mr. William Crampton, Shook, Hardy & Bacon, 1200 20 Main Street, Kansas City, Missouri 64105; That changes, if any made by the witness, in 21 the transcript and otherwise are attached hereto to incorporate herein; 22 That the witness did ( ) or did not ( ) return the transcript; 23 That the original deposition transcript, or a copy thereof in the event the original was not 24 returned to the officer, together with copies of all exhibits, was delivered or duly mailed to 25 Mr. Lynn Grisham, Attorney for Plaintiffs, Waltman & Grisham, 3833 South Texas Avenue, Suite 150, MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752 123 1 Bryan, Texas 77802; that person being the attorney or party who asked the first question appearing in 2 the transcript for safekeeping and use at trial; That a copy of this certificate was served 3 on all parties and the clerk of the court. 4 5 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND AND SEAL OF OFFICE on this the 16th day of September, 1996. 6 7 8 9 TAMARA J. BRAUN, CSR #3396 10 CSR Expiration: 12/31/97 Monica Weidmann & Associates 11 805 W. 10th Street, Suite 201 Austin, Texas 78701 12 (800) 969-2752 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MONICA WEIDMANN & ASSOCIATES (800) 969-2752